My take on a possible ways to return from the dead

[king of nowhere]

I got a few words of sanderson quoted at me in another thread, and they gave me and idea on how kelsier may have returned from death.

So, method 1, probably easier. we know that enough healing power can take back someone's soul from the cognitive realm. we've seen it in the case of wax, whose body was badly broken, and who had only died a few minutes prior. Is it too much of a stretch to assume that even if there was no body whatsoever, healing would just create a new body from scratch? or from bones dead a few years back, at least?

So, someone would need to create an hemalurgical spike for Feruchemical gold. Then that someone would jump into shadesmar with the spike. I think also not too mucch off a stretch to assume that kelsier's cognitive shadow could be spiked by the cognitive shadow of an hemalurgic spike. Then he'd just need enough of a storage to make a new body. would likely need compounding, maybe some nicrosil trick, but nothing insurmuntable if the first two assumptions work. Kelsier held preservation, he knew fully well the deeper intricacies of the metallic arts.

 

Method 2 is more spectacular, but trickier too. It would require an hemalurgic spike to be made out of kelsier's cognitive shadow, while having no identity. if it is possible to bring a spike in the cognitive realm and spike a cognitive shadow, that can work. then someone alive should burn the hemalurgic spike. We don't know what it does, but we know that

Quote

Burning a Hemalurgic spike would have the effect of splicing your spiritual DNA to that of the person's that is in the spike, which would have some very strange consequences.


What if the consequences are that you become the person who was killled with the spike? Then someone could have burned the spike, and he would have become kelsier, or most of him - with some traces left of the guy he was before. Kelsier was worshipped, so there would have neen plenty of volunteers to try it out, too.

 

Sorry if those ideas have already been proposed and debunked, but i couldn't find them elsewhere.

Here are the relevant brandon quotes.

  Hide contents

• 1

  INTERVIEW: Jul, 2009

  Twitter: Brandonothology collection (Verbatim) 

  CZANOS

  Would anything interesting happen if an Allomancer Burned a Hemalurgic spike, or a Feruchemist Tapped one? 

  BRANDON SANDERSON

  Er, well, it’s possible. But you’d have to be burning a Hemalurgic spike that killed you and took your power... Just like you can’t gain anything by burning a metalmind unless you infused it yourself.

  TAGS

  mistborn, allomancy, feruchemy, hemalurgy, metallic arts, 

 

• 3

  INTERVIEW: Jan 10th, 2011

  Tor Q&A with Brandon Sanderson (Verbatim) 

  MARU NUI ()

  What happens when you burn a Hemalurgic spike?

  BRANDON SANDERSON ()

  Burning a Hemalurgic spike would have the effect of splicing your spiritual DNA to that of the person's that is in the spike, which would have some very strange consequences.


  TAGS

  mistborn, hemalurgy, allomancy, 

 

• 42

  INTERVIEW: Oct 12th, 2015

  Shadows of Self-Oak Brook, IL

  QUESTION

  If you burn a Hemalurgic spike, would it graft the piece of stolen soul onto your soul?

  BRANDON SANDERSON

  No, but it would have... There are some interesting effects there.

  TAGS

  Allomancy, hemalurgy, 

 

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

My theory is that the spike is Atium and is conning Kelsier's soul into thinking it has a Connection to the Physical Realm. Then he just crosses over using Sazed's perpendicularity. This theory doesn't have much basis, but I love the idea that Kell is running a con on his own soul. It just fits him!

[Yata he/him]

The First one (about Healing power) is impossible. Once your connection to the physical realm are cutted, healing is meaningless. It's a so drastic event to influence also the ability to wield a Shard.

I am unsure also about the second, after all Hemalurgy steals a chunk of Soul, not the whole one and  if you Spike Kel's Shadow and someone merge his SDNA with a part of Kel's one. You will probably don't have a new Kel... and what attribute did you "steal" from Kel to "resurrect" him ?

Personally I think Kel spiked himself with Cadmium/Chromium Spike with Connection (I am unsure of the specific metal), to restore his link to the Physical Realm.... Maybe He needed more than the single spike we saw....Once tied to the physical realm he may probably use whatever Healing he want to rebuld his body.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Yata

[king of nowhere]

2 hours ago, Yata said:

The First one (about Healing power) is impossible. Once your connection to the physical realm are cutted, healing is meaningless. It's a so drastic event to influence also the ability to wield a Shard.

I am unsure also about the second, after all Hemalurgy steals a chunk of Soul, not the whole one and  if you Spike Kel's Shadow and someone merge his SDNA with a part of Kel's one. You will probably don't have a new Kel... and what attribute did you "steal" from Kel to "resurrect" him ?

Personally I think Kel spiked himself with Cadmium/Chromium Spike with Connection (I am unsure of the specific metal), to restore his link to the Physical Realm.... Maybe He needed more than the single spike we saw....Once tied to the physical realm he may probably use whatever Healing he want to rebuld his body.

Duly noted. So I'll revise my first theory as "he got a spike for connection to the physical, and another for healing". the general idea stands, though.

[Yata he/him]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

Duly noted. So I'll revise my first theory as "he got a spike for connection to the physical, and another for healing". the general idea stands, though.

There is another problem also in my idea...it's the reason I avoided to make a post explain my view on the Survivor's return.

As Cognitive Shadow you can't use magic for human (for example Allomancy or Feruchemy)... Kelsier as a ghost can't use his Mistborn's abilities. This may mean that He can't gain F-Gold (if he could He don't need a Spike, a Medallion is good also). But maybe restoring his Connection to the physical made him a regular human struck in the Cognitive and in this case He don't need to heal anything.

Everything is alright....ehm no... How Did Kelsier manage to return in the Physical ? He can't use the Perpendicularities on Scadrial. The Pits are gone for some centuries and the Well also, but also if the Well works I find hard to him pass there with an Hemalurgic Spike.

As you see there are multiple problems, the only way that come to my mind (but I has no proofs) is:

- Kel manage to restore his Connection to the physical through Hemalurgy (maybe Cadmius or Chromium may stole Connection, but to remove the probem.. he used an Atium Spike because at the end of TFE they have not the tech)

- Once Connected, Kel became a regular Human in the Cognitive, like any other worldhopper and he may use again Magic

- He can't use the Perpendicularities on Scadrial because they are gone and instead He manage to use the Worldhop ability hidden in the Metallic Arts and unknown to us (He need to know how Worldhop with the Arts because it's the only way He may obtain the Connection Spike... Someone made it on the physical and give to him in the Cognitive).

This to me it's the more likely method but this method uses at least una unknown factor to us (the unknown way to Worldhop with Metallic Arts) and may be really wrong.

[CaptainRyan he/him]

6 hours ago, Yata said:

Everything is alright....ehm no... How Did Kelsier manage to return in the Physical ? He can't use the Perpendicularities on Scadrial. The Pits are gone for some centuries and the Well also, but also if the Well works I find hard to him pass there with an Hemalurgic Spike.

[/snip]

- He can't use the Perpendicularities on Scadrial because they are gone and instead He manage to use the Worldhop ability hidden in the Metallic Arts and unknown to us (He need to know how Worldhop with the Arts because it's the only way He may obtain the Connection Spike... Someone made it on the physical and give to him in the Cognitive).

This to me it's the more likely method but this method uses at least una unknown factor to us (the unknown way to Worldhop with Metallic Arts) and may be really wrong.

Yata, why not just use Harmony's Shardpool? Harmony has to have one somewhere on the planet eh? If it is in Southern Scadrial then that makes even more sense for the Sovereign to have been there, right?

[Yata he/him]

1 hour ago, CaptainRyan said:

Yata, why not just use Harmony's Shardpool? Harmony has to have one somewhere on the planet eh? If it is in Southern Scadrial then that makes even more sense for the Sovereign to have been there, right?

It's possible but we know a little of how Shardpools works. Maybe it took a long time for a Harmony's Shardpool to spawn and we don't know even if something like an Harmony's Shardpool would never exist or we have again two different Shardpool (one for preservation and one of ruin).

Remember, Kel show up on South (in the physical realm) little time after Harmony's born. Maybe it's too early for a perpendicularity's formation.Just see how much time the Pits and the Well take to going operative.
I don't say it's impossible... but in honestly I think It's like a cheat explain the Kel's return using something we don't know at all. Also my explaination is probably pretentious but we know from WoB there is a worldhop method through Metallic Arts.

[CaptainRyan he/him]

1 minute ago, Yata said:

It's possible but we know a little of how Shardpools works. Maybe it took a long time for a Harmony's Shardpool to spawn and we don't know even if something like an Harmony's Shardpool would never exist or we have again two different Shardpool (one for preservation and one of ruin).

Remember, Kel show up on South (in the physical realm) little time after Harmony's born. Maybe it's too early for a perpendicularity's formation.Just see how much time the Pits and the Well take to going operative.
I don't say it's impossible... but in honestly I think It's like a cheat explain the Kel's return using something we don't know at all. Also my explaination is probably pretentious but we know from WoB there is a worldhop method through Metallic Arts.

If we assume that Harmony is using the Pits and Well still then Kelsier could just use the Well eh?

If we assume Harmony has his own shardpool then I think, and this is just a guess, that the pool would form either when Sazed Ascended or very soon thereafter. The Pits were, I think, a special case with Ruin being trapped and his "essence" slowly leaking into the Pits.

I think this would be a good question for Brandon: Does Harmony only have a single shardpool or two? If only one, when did it form and become usable as a Perpendicularity? 

[Yata he/him]

1 minute ago, CaptainRyan said:

If we assume that Harmony is using the Pits and Well still then Kelsier could just use the Well eh?

If we assume Harmony has his own shardpool then I think, and this is just a guess, that the pool would form either when Sazed Ascended or very soon thereafter. The Pits were, I think, a special case with Ruin being trapped and his "essence" slowly leaking into the Pits.

I think this would be a good question for Brandon: Does Harmony only have a single shardpool or two? If only one, when did it form and become usable as a Perpendicularity? 

Sorry I forgot to write this part when I explained the reason Kelsier can't return through Pits or Well.

We know the Pits are useless as perpendicularity from Kel's action in TFE and it took centuries to be usefull again, I think the same thing happen to the well when someone use it's power but here we have no written proofs. The Problem with the Kel using the Well was about his Spike (or Spikes). We saw how badly Preservation's power in the Well reacts badly to someone with Hemalurgy and Kel can't probably remove his Spike or he doesn't need it at all.

[Jondesu he/him]

I was pretty sure we had a WoB that both the Pits and the Well have ceased to exist (as Shardpools, the Pits of Hathsin seem to still exist as a geological formation).

jW

[king of nowhere]

you need a prependicularity if you entered the congitive realm in a worldhopper fashion. you have no need of perpendicularity if you are healing yourself back from the dead.

[WayneSpren he/him]

13 hours ago, Yata said:

The First one (about Healing power) is impossible. Once your connection to the physical realm are cutted, healing is meaningless. It's a so drastic event to influence also the ability to wield a Shard.

I am unsure also about the second, after all Hemalurgy steals a chunk of Soul, not the whole one and  if you Spike Kel's Shadow and someone merge his SDNA with a part of Kel's one. You will probably don't have a new Kel... and what attribute did you "steal" from Kel to "resurrect" him ?

Personally I think Kel spiked himself with Cadmium/Chromium Spike with Connection (I am unsure of the specific metal), to restore his link to the Physical Realm.... Maybe He needed more than the single spike we saw....Once tied to the physical realm he may probably use whatever Healing he want to rebuld his body.

...Confused.

If you can't heal after your ties to the Physical Realm are cut, how did Wax come back in BoM? @Yata

[AndrolGenhald]

Words of Radiance spoiler:

Spoiler

Nale does the same thing with Szeth at the end of WoR, and Lift may have done so as well, I can't remember for sure.

In both this case and the one with Wax though, they had just died; their body, mind, and soul had separated, but each was still alive in a sense. Kelsier had been dead for a long while before coming back.

[Yata he/him]

Like Androl said.

Wax was dead in biological sense, but it took some time for your Connection to the physical realm to be cut off. He manages to tap a lot of Healing when He is still connected to the Physical realm, or He never has the chance to tap Healing from his corpse.

At the moment I can't remember (sorry but I am very tired) if your Connection to the physical last longer if you are a magic user, or it's a separate parameter and your Investiture is meaningful only to the time you have before to go Beyond.

Edited July 19, 2016 by Yata

[king of nowhere]

17 hours ago, Yata said:

Like Androl said.

Wax was dead in biological sense, but it took some time for your Connection to the physicalm realm to be cut off. He manages to tap a lot of Healing when He is still connected to the Physical realm, or He never has the change to tap Healing from his corpse.

At the moment I can't remember (sorry but I am very tired) if your Connection to the physical last longer if you are a magic user, or it's a separate parameter and your Investiture is meaningful only to the time you have before to go Beyond.

Yeah, but I'm not sure about one detail there: it is said that you have "some time" where you can still be brought back, and that you'll take "some time" to go beyond, and so I assumed that you could be healed until you go beyond. Normally there's little difference, except for kelsier who managed to not go beyond. But I don't know if there is some official answer if it is just a matter of time, or of passing beyond.

Anyway, time may require that the connection be repaired, and that a metalmind be brought into the cognitive realm, but I don't see those as unsurmountable obstacles.

[AndrolGenhald]

4 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

Yeah, but I'm not sure about one detail there: it is said that you have "some time" where you can still be brought back, and that you'll take "some time" to go beyond, and so I assumed that you could be healed until you go beyond. Normally there's little difference, except for kelsier who managed to not go beyond. But I don't know if there is some official answer if it is just a matter of time, or of passing beyond.

Anyway, time may require that the connection be repaired, and that a metalmind be brought into the cognitive realm, but I don't see those as unsurmountable obstacles.

I had assumed that the time frame involved both the cognitive shadow not going to the Beyond and the body being able to be healed, and presumably some sort of requirement for the spirit. Seeing as Kelsier's body was eaten by a Kandra...

 

Edit: Typo, stupid autocorrect...

Edited June 18, 2016 by AndrolGenhald

[Yata he/him]

2 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

Anyway, time may require that the connection be repaired, and that a metalmind be brought into the cognitive realm, but I don't see those as unsurmountable obstacles.

Here is the doubt, if a Cognitive Shadow has his Connection to the physical restored. Does it mean He became like an every human in the Cognitive Realm (and may use Magic but in the end he doesn't need it) or He is still unable to use Magic because is yet just a Cognitive Shadow ?

Because as regular Cognitive Shadow you can't use magic designed for human (like allomancy and Feruchemy).

[king of nowhere]

2 hours ago, Yata said:

 

Because as regular Cognitive Shadow you can't use magic designed for human (like allomancy and Feruchemy).

this seems just like when they said that kandras could not use the metallic arts. or that there were no atium mistings, or that you could not awaken stone or metal. Based on previous brandon stories, it's exactly the kind of thing that I expect can be gotten around with the right knowledge.

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

Allomancy and Feruchemy are abilities written into the Sdna. Kell's Sdna didn't change so he is still an Allomancer. But using Allomancy requires the ability to ingest and burn metal which requires a body. Kell doesn't have one. Once he's gotten a new one I don't see why he would have any problem using his abilities.

If the above is about accurate it leads to some interesting questions regarding less physically oriented systems of investiture...

[Yata he/him]

9 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

this seems just like when they said that kandras could not use the metallic arts. or that there were no atium mistings, or that you could not awaken stone or metal. Based on previous brandon stories, it's exactly the kind of thing that I expect can be gotten around with the right knowledge.

My bad, I meant "mortal form", I used the word "human" without think to the other physical species (but also the Kandra are Human-based).

3 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Allomancy and Feruchemy are abilities written into the Sdna. Kell's Sdna didn't change so he is still an Allomancer. But using Allomancy requires the ability to ingest and burn metal which requires a body. Kell doesn't have one. Once he's gotten a new one I don't see why he would have any problem using his abilities.

If the above is about accurate it leads to some interesting questions regarding less physically oriented systems of investiture...

If you remember Kel can't use his allomancy, also when Leras provided to him a stream of power.He can't use it as Allomancy (and it's quite the same thing of "burning the mist" an universal allomantic fuel) therefore isn't only a problem of "I have not metals here".

The bolded part is our main problem I expressed before. At the moment we can't tell if simply re-Connecting him to the physical manage him to be "a strange human instead of a Cognitive Shadow". The Magic Systems are "how the Power of Creation manifested itself in a Mortal Form" and Kel isn't it.
Probably re-Connecting is enough (or I don't see other solutions) but it's a delicate problem, because also Hemalurgy probably needs a Mortal and Kel would be unable to recive a Spike (it's like a snake who bite his own tail)... The only answer that comes to my mind is about Hemalurgy works with the Spiritual Aspect alone and a Cognitive Shadow has yet his Spirit Web.. But it's a Weak Argument 

Edited June 19, 2016 by Yata

[Jazzy Kandra she/her]

I doubt it's as simple as using a spike or healing the body, but I think it might have aspects of both. That is, I believe that Kelsier would need something that is Connected to him in the physical realm (i.e. a rebuilt body using his bones) to even reconnect his cognitive self to his physical aspect. In short, Kelsier's problem is that he needs to be able to reconnect, or realm-hop into a physical form that Identifies, still, as part of Kelsier, too (probably Kelsier's bones).

I think it's much more likely that Sanderson has said that Kelsier's bones are still around several times now in multiple WoBs is something of a hint. Those bones, for lack of a better way to put it, are probably keyed to Kelsier. They remember being Kelsier's bones and containing his flesh, and that memory is probably emphasized by Survivorism in some strange way in the cognitive realm (the idea that Kelsier is alive) and so, the bones 'want' to be alive too. I think that one key to the puzzle about how Kelsier got back into the physical realm has something to do with his skeleton, and what the skeleton wants to be alive. Similar to the fire that would like to be fire and remembers being fire in the cognitive realm. Assuming the cooking fire has been out for weeks, and assuming something that was formerly part of the physical aspect of a person wants to be again for years afterwards especially when the religion/beliefs of people in the physical realm are telling it that it should, in fact, be alive.

The building blocks probably need to start with the one part of Kelsier's physical aspect that still exists (and wants to be him). The puzzle, of course, is that TenSoon probably still has the skeleton. I think there is another solution to the puzzle, one which fits with his nature of a con-artist.

Considering that Kelsier knows something is up with the South, and assuming that the Power of Creation (that is, the power to directly terraform the world, move said world, and change parts of its citizens' physical aspects, in this case) is limited to a short amount of time, even for those holding two shards, especially two shards that while in Harmony, also are in content conflict (they're both Discarduous and Harmonuous). Due to his Shardic intent, Harmony ran into a Catch-22; that is, Harmony could do very little to help the Southerners directly, instead, he needed to send someone else to go in his stead. An agent of Harmony, so to speak that wasn't busy trying to rebuild Northern society. Rebuilding a society after "the end" is a lot of hard work, especially when you have limited tools, people, and supplies. Logistically, no one else was available...

So, considering Kelsier's character, I think Kelsier made a bargain with Harmony. He probably pointed these things out to Sazed, and that he could go and help (especially if he has Feruchemy), because he isn't busy rebuilding society (like everyone else). It's a bit of a con, of course, because he is conning Sazed into helping him get reconnected to his physical aspect and become a Fullborn, but it's a rather innocent ploy and one in which everyone gets what they want. Like Sazed did to Vin and Elend's bodies, he could presumably rebuild Kelsier's body using Kelsier's bones (which TenSoon holds), and with the help of an Inquisitor spike, Kelsier hops his Cognitive Aspect in through the tear created by the spike reconnecting himself to the physical realm. Or, if it's not that specific spike (which is a possibility), he does the same thing with an aluminum spike, using it as a bridge (or mini-perpendicularity) to drag himself back into the physical realm, however, I think he needs something physical already there for it to work. 

It's a scenario that fits with his character, especially after the events of SH. He's trying to help Sazed (his friend) get out of a jam; he's trying to help himself (the most important person) get out of a jam; and he's trying to inspire the Southerners and get them out of a jam. Three birds with one stone, so to speak.

Now, that might not be how he does it exactly. This presumes that Harmony would be willing to work with Kelsier's (crazy) plan to get back into the physical realm and play games with people. I guess they could get a Mistwraith to eat the bones and spike some aluminum Blessings into that (as aluminum, being a base metal, gives blessings, and Identity seems to be the logical aspect for it; it's also something they could have), but that's a lot more hackneyed, too.

[Nepene he/him]

We do have one hint at how this is possible, when a cognitive shadow gains a physical form in another book. The stormfather. He forms a nahel bond with Dalinar and as such could theoretically form a shardblade. Other cognitive entities, like spren, can also form a bond with a person and thus get a physical anchor.

I don't know if anyone has asked, but I wonder if it would theoretically be possible to spike a spren. I dunno if anyone has asked. Could one psychotic spren decide to spike all the other spren to gain their powers? Can a spike be used on a cognitive entity like a cognitive shadow or a spren?

 

[Yata he/him]

The Stormfather is something quite unique... It's both a Cognitive Shadow (of a Sliver) and a Splinter, or to be more precise is the fusion between Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow and a powerful Spren.

I don't think any other Cognitive Shadow (also a Sliver's one) has so much Investiture to affect the physical or manifest itself directly.

Edited July 18, 2016 by Yata

[Brackcha he/him]

I'm new so if this has already been discussed please tell me but could kelseirs link to physical realm be the spear head TLR impaled him with? Could that have stolen his allomancy and let him regain his powers? The bands being the spearhead that TLR is holding seems just so suspicious.....

[Yata he/him]

3 hours ago, Brackcha said:

I'm new so if this has already been discussed please tell me but could kelseirs link to physical realm be the spear head TLR impaled him with? Could that have stolen his allomancy and let him regain his powers? The bands being the spearhead that TLR is holding seems just so suspicious.....

You can't stole more than a power with a Single Spike. Much more the Spear was made (I think) of Steel and therefore if it was made of an Allomantic right alloy would steal only Steel or Iron Allomancy.

But we see Kelsier in the Cognitive after, and we don't see any clue of him be ripped a great chunk of Soul... And Leras himself never mention something like that...Therefore I am really doubtful about the Spear to have become an Hemalurgic Spike of somekind.

It's possible that some strong Connection is made between Kelsier and that Spear but I think it's not different from any other strong human-object connection (for example my favorite braclett)... If the Spear may be used by Kel to tie himself to the Physical Realm, I don't know but if the anwer is YES there are probably a lot of objects with similar connection to him to use.

About the BoM's form, after his death the Spearhead became a simbol of the Survivor...Probably it's just to celebrate himself (The man who tricked and puched a couple of gods)

Edited July 18, 2016 by Yata