Hoid Accidentally Reveals He's a Hopper?

[+hwiles]

I noticed two interesting slip-ups by Hoid (one in each epilogue) where he makes references to "coins" as a form of currency, which would probably leave people native to Roshar scratching their heads since, as far as I can determine, they haven't ever minted or used coins:

Quote

• You think I’m a cynic, Wit said. You think I’m going to tell you that men claim to value these ideals, but secretly prefer base talents. The ability to gather coin or to charm women...
• A man will find a single coin in the mud and talk about it for days...

I justify my assumption that coins haven't been minted or used on Roshar in an extremely long time (if ever) from the following two points:

• The word "coin" doesn't show up anywhere accept when Hoid uses it
• If coins ever did exist they would probably have become worthless the moment the Ardentia obtained soulcasters

If they don't have coins, they probably also don't have a word for coins in their language.  In both epilogues the people Hoid is talking to just let his nonsensical comment slide rather than ask what he means, however, it occurred to me that these type of casual mistakes would be a good way for the members of the 17th shard to track him down.  (I suppose it's also possible Sanderson or an editor somewhere literally just made a typo and meant to say "spheres" instead of "coins"...but that's less fun...)

 

Has anyone noticed any other slip-ups by worldhoppers that reveal that they aren't native to the planet they're on?

Edited June 15, 2016 by hwiles

[Eki]

I like this. It's the sort of thing that I completely missed because it makes sense from my perspective, but not from the in-world one.
 

Like Argent (I think) said in the other thread, it is a bit odd how the translation works out, though. Still, if it's in both epilogues, and both quotes said by Wit, I think it's very likely that it's on purpose.

Zahel uses Nalthian color metaphors, but the characters listening seem to think they are old sayings, or just from a different part of the same world. So not necessarily outing him as a worldhopper for anyone who isn't Cosmere aware.

[Windrunner he/him]

If you watch carefully Hoid also uses the word bunny when talking to Kaladin and he asks young Shallan at the Middlefest fair what the "hound" portion of the word axehound means.

[Eki]

Rabbits might exist in Shinovar, but the 'hound' part is definitely Hoid making a private joke.

I think he's also trying to make certain people more Cosmere aware, if he believes they might make good worldhoppers. He also asked Dalinar about Adonalsium (though that might have been because he suspected Dalinar already was Cosmere aware).

[happyman he/him]

6 hours ago, hwiles said:

I noticed two interesting slip-ups by Hoid (one in each epilogue) where he makes references to "coins" as a form of currency, which would probably leave people native to Roshar scratching their heads since, as far as I can determine, they haven't ever minted or used coins:

I justify my assumption that coins haven't been minted or used on Roshar in an extremely long time (if ever) from the following two points:

• The word "coin" doesn't show up anywhere accept when Hoid uses it
• If coins ever did exist they would probably have become worthless the moment the Ardentia obtained soulcasters

If they don't have coins, they probably also don't have a word for coins in their language.  In both epilogues the people Hoid is talking to just let his nonsensical comment slide rather than ask what he means, however, it occurred to me that these type of casual mistakes would be a good way for the members of the 17th shard to track him down.  (I suppose it's also possible Sanderson or an editor somewhere literally just made a typo and meant to say "spheres" instead of "coins"...but that's less fun...)

 

Has anyone noticed any other slip-ups by worldhoppers that reveal that they aren't native to the planet they're on?

That's not a good catch---it's a great catch.  The more I think about it, the more I think that there must be something odd going on with the translation between Hoid and the other characters.  If they don't notice something odd, I can't help but feel that it's because they just don't look for it at all (and why should they?)  He really doesn't fit in on Roshar, does he?  I'm pretty sure that on Scandrial, he sounds a lot more normal.

I'm guessing that we are seeing a form of magic here different from the other forms of translation which we have seen in other places.  I'm pretty sure, for instance, that Vasher learned the local language the hard way.  The only other case we have is from

Spoiler

Bands of Mourning

, which behaved different enough I'm pretty sure that it isn't the same.

 

Edited June 15, 2016 by happyman

[antgrgmn he/him]

I think that there is some kind of translation mechanism that the worldhoppers all use that lets them speak any language, and the thing I really noticed as odd was that this translator thing DIDN'T translate "Coin" into "Sphere". This makes it clear, at least to me, that Hoid saying "Coin" both times was intentional. Your guys thoughts? Also, do we know where Hoid was before Roshar?

Edited June 15, 2016 by antgrgmn

[Eki]

We do have an example from BoM where a character says something that doesn't get translated as it should, because the other language doesn't have a word for that thing. It could be the same for coins, if they are considered sufficiently different from spheres.

I think a lot of people tend to zone out a bit when Hoid speaks as Wit, since he often makes far-fetched puns and other jokes that go over his victims' heads. He can probably get away with saying some pretty weird things, and people will just assume they missed some word play. Same with those guards at the gate: Hoid mentioning 'coins' wasn't the only thing weird about this guy randomly sitting on some boxes, talking about storms and what people value in life.

Also, Hoid has been on the planet before (when he arrives in the Peaks he asks Rock what year it is, and he seems to have something to do with the Worldsingers), so he could have learned the language normally. I do think he has a translation thingy, but he probably knows at least some languages naturally.

[antgrgmn he/him]

I think on the first example that hwiles gave, there might not be an adequate translation. On the second however, his use of the word "Coin" seems like it has to be intentional. Also, since the Rosharans didn't have the word "Coin" in their vocabulary, it would seem like Hoid was just saying random sounds; possibly completely switching into another language. Right?

[Patrick Star]

Good observation, you're probably right.

However, I don't think it's possible for Hoid to accidentally reveal that he's a hopper, since he probably doesn't care.  We're talking about a guy who twirls shardblades on his fingertips and would grow a new head if he got decapitated.

Also, I doubt that anyone on Roshar cares, anyways.  Nobody thinks twice about Vasher's colorful vocabulary and syntax.

[Eki]

2 minutes ago, antgrgmn said:

I think on the first example that hwiles gave, there might not be an adequate translation. On the second however, his use of the word "Coin" seems like it has to be intentional. Also, since the Rosharans didn't have the word "Coin" in their vocabulary, it would seem like Hoid was just saying random sounds; possibly completely switching into another language. Right?

Maybe. He could have 'Rosharized' it so it didn't sound entirely out of place, but they wouldn't understand the word. I doubt they understood half of the other things he was talking about either though But yeah, in the first case it could have just meant "money", which they might have a different word for than "spheres". Since it's in both epilogues though...

[Argel he/him]

I think he cares to some extent -- he does mention that it is dangerous for him to be there (Roshar) in one of the SA books. Which now that I think about it, suggests there are no agents of Odium nearby.

[EmeraldSlash he/him]

I believe I saw Hoid in the following books/series:

• Elantris
• Mistborn
• Warbreaker
• The Stormlight Archive

As well as that, his character stays relatively the same, I think (he was an informant and beggar in the first three, and the king's Wit in the second). When mentioned in the glossary of Mistborn, his description is "HOID: A mystery yet to be solved."

Great theory, I agree with it.

[Argel he/him]

He's also there in spirit in The Emporer's Soul. There is a deleted scene with him in and Brandon said the spirit/essence of that scene is canon (like what was said but it just could not have occurred the way it did/when it did). We also know he's the one that set Shai up (so, if she's really determined to track him down, she will have to become a worldhopper).

[EmeraldSlash he/him]

I just "saw" him in the second "mistborn 19th century" book, Shadows of Self. He was a carriage driver. Nothing special, though.

[Brightness Enna she/her]

That's really interesting. One thing I wanted to throw out there: when he uses "coin" in his little speech thing to the guards at the end of WoK, they seem to understand him. At least as far as I can tell. They might not have. 

I I think the translator might be something like what we saw in BoM. Perhaps it wasn't specifically a feruchemical storage but some other kind of tool that harnesses investiture to alter a person's Connection. So while what Hoid says may not translate well, maybe they understood him because of the altered Commection anyway. 

Edited June 18, 2016 by Brightness Enna

[Ecthelion III he/him]

4 hours ago, EmeraldSlash said:

I just "saw" him in the second "mistborn 19th century" book, Shadows of Self. He was a carriage driver. Nothing special, though.

Shadows of Self spoilers:

 

Nothing special? He was driving the carriage AT THE SAME TIME WAX WAS TALKING TO GOD HIMSELF!!! (And knowing Hoid, I can be 100% sure that he was listening in.)

Edited June 19, 2016 by Ecthelion III
Fix typo

[EmeraldSlash he/him]

19 hours ago, Ecthelion III said:

Shadows of Self spoilers:

  Hide contents

Nothing special? He was driving the carriage AT THE SAME TIME WAX WAS TALKING TO GOD HIMSELF!!! (And knowing Hoid, I can be 100% sure that he was listening in.)

Aye. I feel like there is going to be big reveal with Hoid, maybe in one of the last TSA books (8-10 maybe?).

[bjmgeek he/him]

I was re-reading Way of Kings, and Hoid (as Wit) mocks Sadeas by mentioning how many spheres he pays for companionship. So I think he's smart enough to know what the people use for money.

[RShara she/her]

6 hours ago, bjmgeek said:

I was re-reading Way of Kings, and Hoid (as Wit) mocks Sadeas by mentioning how many spheres he pays for companionship. So I think he's smart enough to know what the people use for money.

It's generally a slip up when they do it. They're using magical means to speak the language (usually), and when they use words that the local language doesn't have a close enough equivalent to, it comes out as what they actually said, instead of the translated version.

[earthexile]

This may or may not be related, but Dalinar has a certain bodyguard named Rial.

Rial has a habit of looping a sphere around his fingers over and over again, the kind of thing you do with a coin, which apparently isn't a thing most people do. He's always got a flask on him, and even though he's been reprimanded for it, he openly admits where he's hiding it when Dalinar asks. Despite his insubordination and apparent on-the-job drinking, there's just something Dalinar really likes about the guy. It feels like being around an old friend. He likes having him around, he kind of can't help it.

That dude is an Allomancer, I'm certain of it.

[+hwiles]

7 hours ago, earthexile said:

This may or may not be related, but Dalinar has a certain bodyguard named Rial.

Rial has a habit of looping a sphere around his fingers over and over again, the kind of thing you do with a coin, which apparently isn't a thing most people do. He's always got a flask on him, and even though he's been reprimanded for it, he openly admits where he's hiding it when Dalinar asks. Despite his insubordination and apparent on-the-job drinking, there's just something Dalinar really likes about the guy. It feels like being around an old friend. He likes having him around, he kind of can't help it.

That dude is an Allomancer, I'm certain of it.

You just broke my brain. I don't remember the mention of anyone flipping a sphere across their knuckles, but that is absolutely a stereotypical habit of con artists, thieves, and masters of sleight-of-hand in fantasy novels (except with a coin, which should be much easier).

Not to question your recollection, but can you supply a quote? I feel like this could have serious merit as an indication of a, to the best of my knowledge, previously unidentified worldhopper. I don't mind the revived traffic through my old topic, but if you have further evidence it's probably worthy of it's own dedicated thread.

[PallonianFire he/him]

8 hours ago, earthexile said:

This may or may not be related, but Dalinar has a certain bodyguard named Rial.

Heh, there was a lot of discussion at JordanCon this year about Rial. Idk if Glen Vogelaar is on the Shard, but he's a big proponent of Rial=WalDo. Got a RAFO on it, as expected.

[earthexile]

Some quotes about Rial, all from Oathbringer:

 

Dalinar eyed the man. Clean-shaven, he was a little pale for an Alethi and had dark brown hair. Dalinar vaguely thought the man had shown up among his guards several times during the last week or so. He liked to roll a sphere across his knuckles in what Dalinar thought to be a distracting way. "Your name?" Dalinar asked as they walked.

Here we have a whole bunch of clues. Worldhoppers are traditionally hinted at by slight ethnic offness. He's arrived since all the big magical stuff started happening. He's got a weird habit, like someone who spent his life handling coins rather than spheres.

Most interesting, Dalinar accepts his presence despite usually being very strict about the Codes, and his mens' appearance and behavior. Rial mouths off to the Blackthorn like he's deliberately trying to piss him off.

"Where did you get this habit of questioning officers?"

"It isn't a habit if you only do it once, Brightlord."

"And you've only ever done it once?"

"Ta you?"

"To anyone."

"Well," Rial said, "those don't count, Brightlord. I'm a new man. Reborn in the bridge crews."

That sounds like the kind of thing you might say if you didn't think you could bluff Highlord Kholin with a fake Alethi military background. I'm sure people have noticed by now that the bridge crews provide a way for random dudes from anywhere, regardless of background, to find themselves as personal bodyguards to the Highlord. It's the perfect cover for a Worldhopper who wants to keep tabs on Dalinar.

 

Oh, and the place allomancers come from is ScadRIAL. But that almost seems too obvious.

 

[+robardin he/him]

On 10/9/2018 at 1:55 AM, earthexile said:

This may or may not be related, but Dalinar has a certain bodyguard named Rial.

Rial has a habit of looping a sphere around his fingers over and over again, the kind of thing you do with a coin, which apparently isn't a thing most people do. He's always got a flask on him, and even though he's been reprimanded for it, he openly admits where he's hiding it when Dalinar asks. Despite his insubordination and apparent on-the-job drinking, there's just something Dalinar really likes about the guy. It feels like being around an old friend. He likes having him around, he kind of can't help it.

That dude is an Allomancer, I'm certain of it.

I caught onto the coin-related habit and his unusual comfortable-yet-foreign, insubordinate-yet-technically-respectful behavior as suggesting an off-world type of origin, but didn't catch the detail about the flask - nicely spotted. He could be Rioting Dalinar here, as we have no indication that Allomancy can create Connection, unless by burning an unkeyed Feruchemical duraluminmind.

[Slimy_Slider]

Hmmm, wonder what Spook's been doing since he went into retirement...