Adonalsium was, essentially, useless?

[Argel]

Brandon also referred to Adonalsium as a "he", so add that to what we know. The plan you mention could be (and likely is) referring to his imminent shattering and how to deal with it. In which case, Frost is discouraging Hoid so that he doesn't accidentally ruin Adonalsium's post-shattering plan.

[Pathfinder]

For all we know Adonalsium could have viewed the people of Yolen like the movie The Day the Earth Stood Still. That the people on the planet could end up destroying the universe and Adonalsium was acting to destroy them or prevent them from advancing. So in defense the group worked together to shatter Adonalsium. Or it could be that some of the group had a nefarious goal, and tricked the rest into thinking it was a good idea through mis-information. We already have (though admittedly biased) testimony that Rayse was a liar and manipulator. There are a whole host of reasons for Adonalsium shattering. I think what Blight is saying is that there is so little information, that based on what little we have, your theory doesn't feel like it fits. He doesn't have enough evidence to disprove you, but you do not have enough evidence to prove it true either. Yes it is a theory, but there are some theories with more info to back it up than others. This honestly in my own opinion, is pretty loose and a stretch. Yes we know Adonalsium was shattered. Yes we know the current shards have intents. And yes we know an instance of one shard where its intents make it difficult (though not impossible) to act. Yet none of that means that is how Adonalsium had to have functioned prior to the shattering. If anything I feel the fact that Adonalsium could have split in multiple different ways shows he didn't have specific intents prior to the shattering. That intents were probably a result of the shattering. Not something that predated it. But like you said, that is my own opinion about your theory. We just do not have any information to lend further credence to either of us. 

Edited June 6, 2016 by Pathfinder

[Argel]

We have Frost's letter to Hoid, which suggests Adonalsium had an active plan, which in turn suggests Aonalsium was able to act.

 

Frost and Hoid also apparently know something about the plan, which raises the question of how they learned about it (e.g. scrying, first-hand, etc.).

[Three1415]

Another point is that even from the pure-Intent perspective (although I agree with those who suggest that Intents post-date the Shattering, not pre-date it), Autonomy would necessarily give the user freedom to act, as that is its nature; it would be rather strange if a shard devoted to personal freedoms removed the wielder's. In this way Aldonalsium, even if he were more of a coagulation of the current Shards' Intents rather than his own being, would at least possess one force that would give him some leeway to counter the Intents of the other Shards.

 

As such, it is likely the Vessels' original intents were to protect Yolen itself (which could potentially have been slated for destruction); alternatively, the Shattering could have been Adonalsium's plan in the first place.

[CaptainRyan]

Another point is that even from the pure-Intent perspective (although I agree with those who suggest that Intents post-date the Shattering, not pre-date it), Autonomy would necessarily give the user freedom to act, as that is its nature; it would be rather strange if a shard devoted to personal freedoms removed the wielder's. In this way Aldonalsium, even if he were more of a coagulation of the current Shards' Intents rather than his own being, would at least possess one force that would give him some leeway to counter the Intents of the other Shards.

Dominion is a possible candidate for countering, or at least restricting to some degree, Autonomy's intent. If a double shard of Dominion and Autonomy formed I imagine the Vessel would suffer a similar, but not exactly the same, creeping paralysis as Sazed is struggling with.

Also, as mentioned before, Adonalsium could have Shattered into different Intents which means Adonalsium might have had a mixture of Intents different than the 16 we will know of.

Also, as mentioned before, the speculation is not *just* that Adonalsium became paralyzed but that Adonalsium might have ended up heavily favoring a certain (mixture of) Intent and therefore, over time, became unstable.

Edited June 9, 2016 by CaptainRyan

[Pathfinder]

Dominion is a possible candidate for countering, or at least restricting to some degree, Autonomy's intent. If a double shard of Dominion and Autonomy formed I imagine the Vessel would suffer a similar, but not exactly the same, creeping paralysis as Sazed is struggling with.

Also, as mentioned before, Adonalsium could have Shattered into different Intents which means Adonalsium might have had a mixture of Intents different than the 16 we will know of.

Also, as mentioned before, the speculation is not *just* that Adonalsium became paralyzed but that Adonalsium might have ended up heavily favoring a certain (mixture of) Intent and there became unstable.

So here is a question I am still genuinely confused about regarding your theory. If I understand you correctly you are saying that since Adonalsium could have shattered a different way, that there were already other different types of intents within in in addition to the ones we know. So where you lose me, is what happened to those intents? Are you saying there were countless mini intents, that when the shattering happened, they merged into 16 seperate piece intents that were the product of those merged mini intents (so pulling random names out of my butt courage, honesty, integrity became honor?)? And that if it happened another time, then those mini intents would have formed up into a different 16 separate pieces? Because if not, what happened to all those other intents when the shattering happened? They couldn't have just disappeared.

Edited June 9, 2016 by Pathfinder

[CaptainRyan]

So here is a question I am still genuinely confused about regarding your theory. If I understand you correctly you are saying that since Adonalsium could have shattered a different way, that there were already other different types of intents within in in addition to the ones we know. So where you lose me, is what happened to those intents? Are you saying there were countless mini intents, that when the shattering happened, they merged into 16 seperate piece intents that were the product of those merged mini intents (so pulling random names out of my butt courage, honesty, integrity became honor?)? And that if it happened another time, then those mini intents would have formed up into a different 16 separate pieces? Because if not, what happened to all those other intents when the shattering happened? They couldn't have just disappeared.

 

That is also something I have been thinking about as I have discussed this theory. Granted, speculation in this direction is even less grounded in facts and WoBs than my current theory is so... yeah. Haha.

 

1: Not all of Adonalsium's power is contained in the 16 Shards. We know that various bits of Investiture exist that pre-date the Shards (e.g. spren). Perhaps the missing Intents were diffused into this extra-Shard-Adonalsium-power that exists in the Cosmere. Spren could be the Intent of Creativity? *shrug*

2: The Intents are made up of smaller intents (little 'i' intents). As your comment guessed, those little intents can form different big-I Intents depending on how they are mixed. Much like blue and yellow make green but blue and red make purple. Perhaps the little-i intents mixed to match the 16 Vessels? Or formed the way they did based on Adonalsium's precog? Luck of the draw? The weapon used to Shatter Adonalsium had some influence in some way? *shrug*

 

The part that gets me is that everyone is so willing to dismiss Intents existing in Adonalsium and, instead, believe they are somehow a product of Adonalsium's Shattering; as if the Intents never existed in any fashion before the Shattering. Yet, we see with Harmony that a fusion of two Shards does not remove the Intents but, instead, simply creates tension between them. If Harmony takes up a third Shard, we could speculate that he would have the tension of three Intents pulling him in three directions now eh? If Harmony took a 4th... the same, no? Yet, if Harmony took up all 16 Shards, would those Intents (and their tension) "magically" (realmatically?) disappear and Adonlasium, with no Intent, would reappear? Or is simply combining the 16 Shards not enough to reform Adonalsium?

 

I realize my theory is not the only possible answer. I recognize that is makes some sweeping assumptions about Adonalsium, the Shattering and the Vessels. On the other hand, I have trouble reconciling why the Vessels would Shatter Adonalsium and why Adonalsium would allow it. I feel as if this theory satisifies both of those concepts rather neatly based on the information we have.

[Reborn radiant]

The 16 shards are different facets of Adolnasium's personality. So adolnasium as a whole was just like us. He had all the feelings, and he could act the way he wanted to , just like us. Now when the shards are seperated , the other shards can't influence another shard bearer, so he would be acting only according to the intent of the shard he is holding. If sazed held more than just ruin and preservation, he would be influenced by those shards as well,and is a step closer to becoming a complete personality.

[Sam Script]

I always thought that the Intent of Adonalsium was something like "Creation" or "Existence." We know that Adonalsium was at the very least able to create Splinters (the WoB about there being Splinters of Adonalsium on Roshar pre-shattering), so it wasn't totally paralyzed. It also created and designed all of the worlds that predate the shattering.

Also, Preservation and Cultivation are opposites. So are Ruin and Cultivation (and, of course, Ruin and Preservation). Building something up, breaking it down, and keeping it the same are all opposites of each other, depending on how you see it. Dominion and Devotion are not opposites - Dominion is sovereignty over a section of land, Devotion is dedicating yourself to something or someone. They're totally different. I don't really see any axes where they'd be on opposite ends.

To break down the Intents into simpler words to compare them:

Cultivation: Making other things better/stronger.

Ruin: Breaking other things down.

Preservation: Keeping other things they way they are.

Survival: Continuing to exist.

Endowment: Giving of yourself to others.

Autonomy: Independence/freedom.

Honor: Keeping true to an ideal.

Dominion: Having control over the land.

Devotion: Dedicating yourself to an ideal.

Odium: Hatred of everything.

So, let's see if we can make some groupings, Allomancy-style:

Internal: Survival, Autonomy, Honor, Devotion, Odium

External: Preservation, Cultivation, Endowment, Dominion, Ruin

Improving: Endowment, Devotion, Honor, Cultivation

Maintaining: Autonomy, Preservation, Survival

Destroying: Ruin, Odium

??: Dominion

Physical: Ruin, Preservation, Cultivation, Survival, Dominion

Idealogical: Honor, Odium, Devotion, Autonomy

??: Endowment

Hmm. I'm having trouble coming up with 3-4 Allomancy-style aspects here. I've been wondering for a while if it's possible to work them into such a pattern, but I really don't think you can.

EDIT:

I believe this is the quote you're looking for: "He bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context." (from the Second Letter - Words of Radiance, chapter 71 epigraph)

Great analysis, but so far we cannot be sure that "Survival" is a shard, not to mention whether its intent is related to surviving or something.

But really great analysis.

All of us have a sufficient reason to believe there's a equilibrium btwn Culti, Ruin and Preservation.

The two on Scadrial were just coincidentally counterpart to each other, doesn't mean they're the only possible match.

[Yata]

@CaptainRyan:

In another old post I already speculated on this, the Information we have seems to disprove your first possibility but probably you have right (or may be right) with the second one (the little intent that made the great ones).

 

But it's really possible that what we call Intent/Mandate are a side effect of the Shattering....Something like "Once Adonalsium was killed, the Vessel have to pick up the power and they used some strong Spiritual Connections they have to pull it... In the end, the first Vessels "dyed" the Power with an Intent through their method to obtain it.

Edited June 10, 2016 by Yata

[natc]

That Harmony had distinct intents does not exclude the possibility that Adonalsium had no concrete intents prior to shattering. Take, say, an urn. Smash it; you have 16 pieces. There were any number of exact locations the fractures could have appeared at, but you already broke it and here's where they are. You then glue it back together. It won't be the same anymore, and while it's basically an urn again the pieces are forever clearly visible. It might even influence the fractures you get if you smash it again; the original lines will likely give first, as glue isn't as sturdy.

We cannot everything will just be fine and dandy if we fuse shards together. The Shattering of Adonalsium could very well be irreversible even if every investiture-ounce of power is reclaimed. We don't know how it works.

[Nyali]

But it's really possible that what we call Intent/Mandate are a side effect of the Shattering....Something like "Once Adonalsium was killed, the Vessel have to pick up the power and they used some strong Spiritual Connections they have to pull it... In the end, the first Vessels "dyed" the Power with an Intent through their method to obtain it.

 

It isn't necessarily disproof of your idea, but we do know that Ati was kind and generous before taking up Ruin, which slowly corrupted him. If you're talking about when each original Vessel took up their Shard, I'm not sure a kind and generous man would create the Intent of Ruin on a shard that was a blank slate before being picked up.

 

But, at the same time, a kind and generous man who just shattered God into tiny pieces might feel that what he did was Ruinous, and that could have colored his thoughts when taking up the Shard. Hmm, it's definitely something to think about!

 

 

EDIT: Thinking about it a bit more, I actually really like your idea, or at least, my interpretation of your idea - the Shardic Intents were created by the state of mind of their original Vessels when they were initially obtained, perhaps the intent the Vessel had in shattering Adonalsium. So, maybe Tanavast thought shattering Adonalsium was the right thing to do, so his Shard became Honor. Maybe Ati saw it as a terrible idea that would bring Ruin to the Cosmere, but saw no other course of action. Maybe Leras saw it as a way to Preserve what he could of the Cosmere, to create stability by separating God into more manageable pieces. Maybe Endowment's Vessel did it so they could take a more active role than Adonalsium in the lives of the peoples of the world, giving them the power to control their lives and futures. Maybe Rayse simply hated Adonalsium, and Frost saw it as the only way to survive what was coming. Skai might have wanted to gain control over a piece of the Cosmere to improve it and make it better. Braize might have killed Adonalisum to free mankind from the tyranny of God. I don't really know about Aona.

Edited June 10, 2016 by Nyali

[Yata]

Just a think, while in my previous post I made an hypotesis about the Vessels dyed the Shards. It's not what I think is happened... It was just a possibility. I am more about what someone called "little intent".....all Adonalsium's personality/intent/mandate was divided in 16 part every faceting was "trap" inside one of the 16 Shards and what we saw as Shard's Intent is just the sum of every facetings inside of it.

 

Anyway if you want continue with the "dying Shard" idea, You have to notice that Sazed was kind man but he for his personal experience was deeply Connected with Ruin... one guy doesn't have to be a jerk to be Connected to Ruin... Also a deep understanding of entropy/life/death may give to a men a peculiar PoV on the World... but this doesn't turn the man in a bad person.

Ati maybe was a kind, generous but pessimistic may, we don't know him as human....and probably we will not knowing him as human for years

Edited June 13, 2016 by Yata

[Jondesu]

Anyway if you want continue with the "dying Shard" idea, You have to notice that Sazed was kind man but he for his personal experience was deeply Connected with Ruin... one guy doesn't have to be a jerk to be Connected to Ruin... Also a deep understanding of entropy/life/death may give to a men a peculiar PoV on the World... but this turn the man in a bad person.

Ati maybe was a kind, generous but pessimistic may, we don't know him as human....and probably we will not knowing him as human for years

That brings up an interesting related point. I don't think Ruin was the right name, or rather, the name that would have been given to that Intent in context with the whole. Remember, Preservation couldn't have created without Ruin. Ruin isn't evil, except taken out of context, he just wanted to destroy. In context, you could call it Entropy, or Dissection? Basically, the ability to pull things apart in order to rebuild, which is necessary and good, just not divorced from the whole.

jW

[natc]

It is also an inevitability. Corrupted Ati interprets ruin and destruction as the hastening of a natural process that has been forestalled. If Ati had some sort of beef against stagnant societies, immortal beings, or perhaps other things associated with the "darker" side of Preservation it may have added towards the birth of Ruin.

And of course, topping it off the destruction of God he helped orchestrate. It is potentially the greatest, most Ruinous act any mortal will ever achieve. And from certain perspectives (depending on what was happening to Yolen to incite this event) it may change the world for the better.

There are any number of ways to interpret Ruin in a "good" light in accordance to a kind and generous personality. Not being evil is probably Ruin's most often insisted fact. It's almost like he's trying to convince himself . . .

[Pathfinder]

Personally what I think made Ruin the way he was was arrogance. You can be a kind and just man, but still be utterly full of yourself. He was incredibly prideful. I feel like the shard just ended up magnifying that, and that is how he got totally out of control. Even good people, have bad sides, or aspects of themselves. Same thing with bad people. That is probably why Rayse is so adverse to picking up shards. Like Brandon said, hatred suits him. Maybe throwing another intent in, might soften his hard line for ruling the cosmere. 

[skybreaker30]

I don't think Adonalsium was useless. Less powerful over time due too different intents maybe but not useless. Harmony can still do things just not directly. He can't directly use the power of Ruin or preservation without making one stronger but he has been known too use people too do what he cannot. He mentions in I believe it's shadows of self but I could be wrong that when Wax asks Harmony why he didn't help people he responded with he did he sent Wax too do what he couldn't. Harmony can still make things happen just not directly. He also mentions again to Wax in Shadows of Self that he's not the only person he uses too do his will. Which again implies that Harmony can still cause things too happen just not directly.He can't change Scadrial but he can influence the people who live there too change it in the ways he wants. Again shown in his answer too Wax and his mention in Shadows of Self that they should have had the radio by now. As well as the confusion shown by Wax as too what the radio is. The above examples are the evidence too support my theory that Adonalsium was not useless, just unable too directly interfere in the Cosmere. Since every shard has an opposite even if it's not perfect adonalsium might have been unable too directly interfere in the cosmere in the same way Harmony can't. I suspect some people wanted too destroy Adonalsium because he couldn't directly change the world and some people might have wanted too be able too so with power like that. There's my theory hope it helps.

[CaptainRyan]

On 7/31/2016 at 8:13 AM, skybreaker30 said:

Less powerful over time due too different intents maybe but not useless. Harmony can still do things just not directly.

Depending on what happened to Adonalsium (1 became paralyzed due to Intents, 2 became overfocused in one direction due to Intents, 3 something else) I think many people would view Adonalsium as "useless". 

If Adonalsium truly created the entire Cosmere (a dwarf galaxy), then seeing Adonalsium reduced to the state where it could no longer directly interact with the Cosmere but, instead, could only use agents (humans, dragons, whatever) would definitely seem like Adonalsium was "broken" or "dead". This was a god that created entire solar systems! And now, the best it could do is send the Yolen equivalent of Wax to handle things? If that is the case then I could definitely see people thinking that something needed to change.

[Argel]

He could be intentionally useless, such as deciding on a non-interventionist approach. 

Liars of Partinel Spoiler:

Spoiler

For example, what if left that creeping white stuff have free reign instead of intervening?

 

[CaptainRyan]

14 hours ago, Argel said:

He could be intentionally useless, such as deciding on a non-interventionist approach. 

Liars of Partinel Spoiler:

  Hide contents

For example, what if left that creeping white stuff have free reign instead of intervening?

 

I, too, had a similar thought. I think that is a possibility as well.

I feel as if there had to have been some sort of crisis that some of the original sixteen were responding to that forced them to act. Whether it was the situation in Liar of Partinel or an, essentially, brain dead god I do not know haha.

[Djarskublar]

Sorry if this is a bit necrotic, but here's my 2 cents.

Others mentioned that there are any number of reasons that Mr A was shattered. We know there is no way it was an accident. It required the use of a weapon of some sort. To provide additional perspective here are a couple other scenarios. Personally I don't think that Adonalsium was restricted at all. He was likely either a sapient force, or was a power held like modern shards.

They were simply men of different philosophies. The 16 Vessels just didn't agree with Mr A and killed him as the only way to stop him.

Assuming for a second that it was a power held by a person, they may have killed him for the power, but accidentally shattered it, or deliberately divvied it up.

Mr A could have pulled a Guide to the Galaxy and decided to destroy Yolen for a new intergalactic highway. Yolen didn't like that plan, and shattered Adonalsium to prevent it. (I like this possibility. It's funny)

There are a few possibilities to keep discussion open. My personal opinion is that Adonalsium was doing something the 16 didn't like and stopped him, or that Adonalsium let himself be shattered to further his agenda.

[Thanatos]

Maybe the reason why Adonalsium split into 16 specific intents is due to what Adonalsium was feeling at the time.

 

Had he been feeling differently he would have split with different intents 

Edited August 18, 2016 by Thanatos