New Information On AonDor Intitiation.

[Blightsong]

Recently I read a WoB that stated that a Zombie Elantrian is similar Realmatically to a dead Spren. This got some gears turning, so I posted a theory to the Cosmere Theories forum which basicly stated that Elantrians share a bond similar to that of a Knight Radiant and its Spren, but i stead of a Spren they are bonded to their country. Some discussion involving the Cognitive realm and the nature of bonds insued, you can check that out over in the OP. After some discussion I decided to message Brandon through Reddit to see if I could get an answer out of him.

I asked "Is a bond between an Elantrian and Arelon similar to that of a Knight Radiant and its Spren?"

He responded with "Yes, that is a similar relationship."

This is EXTREMELY interesting, I'm following this answer up with the question "Is there a similar ideal system? Are Elantrians transformed because of their character? Maybe their closeness to the culture of Arelon?"

Hopefully he responds, but even if he doesn't we now know that people are intiated into AonDor by forming a bond with their country of origin. I'm very exited to have figured this out, let me know what you guys think.

Edit: I got RAFOed basicly, here is his reponse.

"from mistborn sent 26 minutes ago

Ah, now you're getting into RAFO territory. Let's just say that you don't have to have a Seon to be made an Elantrian, but in the vast majority of cases, you need a spren to be a Knight Radiant. So there are some differences."

Edit 2: So I asked the follow up question "Does any of this have to do with the personification of culture, similar to how Spren are a personification of natural forces and emotions?"

He responded with "To an extent, yes."

Think of that as you will.

Edited May 12, 2016 by Blightsong

[Khyrindor]

Hmmmmm... This makes me think that there are giant sentient pieces of the Dor scattered around Sel, and those base themselves off of the Selish landscape. So it's about devotion toward a certain area that gets you more likely to be Initiated. That makes a lot of sense.

[AliasSheep]

Hmmmmm... This makes me think that there are giant sentient pieces of the Dor scattered around Sel, and those base themselves off of the Selish landscape. So it's about devotion toward a certain area that gets you more likely to be Initiated. That makes a lot of sense.

 

This would make sense for Raoden, we all know how much he loved Arelon and how much the people of Arelon loved him.  Also, in New Elantris, almost everyone had some role that was very useful to helping everyone in some way, from being a cleaner, to a guard, to a carver, to a teacher etc.  and everyone, before being sent to Elantris, had used their skills to help others in some way, or just benefit Arelon.  (I think this is all right and that I'm not just rationalising it, but it would make sense).

 

A question I'd raise is whether the Dakhor system is based on Devotion or Domination (or both).  It seems quite easy to say Domination, just because of the way Fjorden and Shu-Dereth is, but the process of becoming a Dakhor monk and gaining access to their magic requires incredible amounts of dedication and devotion to Shu-Dereth and to the monastery (remember the one monk sacrificing his life so that someone else could teleport a 15 minute walking distance? Yeah.)

[Argent]

Fascinating. I don't know how much more we get out of this right now, because RAFO City is a real place, but it's good knowledge.

[Jondesu]

I would lean towards the idea that the pieces of the Dor, once splintered, anchored themselves in the Cognitive Realm in each nation, so you have Nation-Splinters that don't quite have sentience yet, but are actively continuing Devotion and Dominion's intents. Those splinters might not be equally divided, either, so Fjorden's splinters may be mostly or all Dominion's power, while Arelon's may be almost all Devotion instead.

jW

Edited May 12, 2016 by Jondesu

[Blightsong]

I would lean towards the idea that the pieces of the Dor, once splintered, anchored themselves in the Cognitive Realm in each nation, so you have Nation-Splinters that don't quite have sentience yet, but are actively continuing Devotion and Dominion's intents. Those splinters might not be equally divided, either, so Fjorden's splinters may be mostly or all Dominion's power, while Arelon's may be almost all Devotion instead.

jW

Presumably, these books still existed before the splintering of those two shards.

I wonder if this means that the diffrent religions on Sel are actually based on these mega spren, and if these splinters are active in the goings on on Sel.

[Espella]

This seems to fit with an idea that I've been thinking about for a little while, the idea that all the Cosmere magic relies on you being Connected to a Shard or something else in the Cognitive Realm (I think the Shardholders hang around in the cognitive realm mostly? That's the impression SH gave me at least.). Spren are the obvious Connection on Roshar, we know now that at least some of the Selish magic requires you to be Connected to certain places (maybe the ones that have the strongest reflections in the cognitive realm or have large chunks of the Dor or something?), and we know that Connection has at least some effects in Scadrial because of (Secret History spoilers)

Kelsier being able to talk to people who were Connected to him while a cognitive shadow, though that might be more of a general Cosmere thing.

Still trying to figure out exactly how some of it would work but this was some nice info, good find.

[Blightsong]

This seems to fit with an idea that I've been thinking about for a little while, the idea that all the Cosmere magic relies on you being Connected to a Shard or something else in the Cognitive Realm (I think the Shardholders hang around in the cognitive realm mostly? That's the impression SH gave me at least.). Spren are the obvious Connection on Roshar, we know now that at least some of the Selish magic requires you to be Connected to certain places (maybe the ones that have the strongest reflections in the cognitive realm or have large chunks of the Dor or something?), and we know that Connection has at least some effects in Scadrial because of (Secret History spoilers)

Kelsier being able to talk to people who were Connected to him while a cognitive shadow, though that might be more of a general Cosmere thing.

Still trying to figure out exactly how some of it would work but this was some nice info, good find.

I don't think this is quite true. Based on what we've seen I think that Shards reside mainly in the spiritual realm, and that AonDor is an exeption. The mistwraith was also not a shards presence in the cognitive realm, but rather the Congnitive shadow of Leras. He had already died by secret history and he says so many times. Relevant WoB below.

INTERVIEW: Oct 12th, 2015

Shadows of Self-Oak Brook, IL

ARGENT

Can somebody travel to the Spiritual Realm, the same as the Cognitive?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, but it's a very different experience. It is possible… You may have seen people do it...

ARGENT

As in you're not sure, or you're being obnoxiously vague?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No...

QUESTION

As in, you probably have but he's having trouble remembering it.

BRANDON SANDERSON

No no no... For instance, Elend burning atium and duralumin pulled most of him into the Spiritual Realm.

ARGENT

Oh, that's what happens there.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yeah. He kind of got yanked into- You also have seen people ascend with the powers and dip into the Spiritual Realm for a little bit.

ARGENT

So, Vin?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yeah. But they could be on both, or either, or both at the same time. But you have seen Vin stick into the Spiritual Realm. And it happened to Sazed/Harmony...

QUESTION

Oh! So is that where the gods live? Kinda?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Most of the bulk of the Shard's energy of being is contained in the Spiritual Realm, yes. [edited for clarity- Original was: Most of the bulk of what the Shard's energy of being is contained on the Spiritual Realm] Except for one notable exception!

QUESTION

The mistwraith?

BRANDON SANDERSON

No.

TAGS

spiritual realm, Vin, Elend, shards,

INTERVIEW: Sep 22nd, 2012

Orem Signing Report - Zas (Verbatim)

ZAS

So what's up with the regeneration issue?

BRANDON SANDERSON

[looks confused]

ZAS

With Shards? Because they only have so much power they can access at a certain time, but yet they still have more energy. So how does that work? Is it just they have so much power they can use at any given time?

BRANDON SANDERSON

[still slightly confused] What are you talking about? Like which shards?

ZAS

Ruin and Preservation. Since we know the most about them.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Ruin and Preservation were a specific instance, because almost all their energy was thrown into resisting each other. Keep that in mind. Even after Preservation was only a shadow, basically all of it was "Let's keep Ruin from destroying the world". So they were polar opposites. Set in balance. But slightly unbalanced in a couple of ways, that eventually, that slight imbalance [led to the Mistborn Trilogy]. They are a special case, because of that.

ZAS

So then why are they hesitant to directly fuel Allomancy?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Why are they hesitant to? What do you mean by directly fuel Allomancy?

ZAS

You mention in the Hero of Ages Q&A that they can directly fuel Allomancy, like Vin does with Elend, but it requires expending their energy in a way they are hesitant to do.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Because it imbalances them more. Does that make sense? So if you are putting your energy here, rather than fighting the other force, that gives them an edge somewhere else, while trying to gain an edge here. And you have to make sure that's really worth it. Like a chess game. Is it worth sacrificing my pawn here to expose myself over here.

ZAS

That makes sense.

TAGS

shards, ruin, preservation, allomancy, hero of ages, vin, elend,

[Yata]

The mistwraith was also not a shards presence in the cognitive realm, but rather the Congnitive shadow of Leras. He had already died by secret history and he says so many times. 

 

Wait, Leras was alive in the first Trilogy. He sacrificed his own mind to keep Ruin and He was deadly injured (probably) from Ruin counterattack but He would manage to survive for thousands of years with that wound before die.

SH Spoiler:

He kept talking about "I am already dead" as someone who know that it's too late to avoid his own dead (like someone hitted by the Hokuto no Shinken   ).

He may "create" Mistwraiths at will and use it to manipulate things. Like Ruin may do.

In the end Leras actually died only in HoA on-screen where is corpse dropped from the Sky, before that moment Leras as full Human Being (with some cognitive deficit) was the Preservation's Vessel.

[Blightsong]

Wait, Leras was alive in the first Trilogy. He sacrificed his own mind to keep Ruin and He was deadly injured (probably) from Ruin counterattack but He would manage to survive for thousands of years with that wound before die.

SH Spoiler:

He kept talking about "I am already dead" as someone who know that it's too late to avoid his own dead (like someone hitted by the Hokuto no Shinken   ).

He may "create" Mistwraiths at will and use it to manipulate things. Like Ruin may do.

In the end Leras actually died only in HoA on-screen where is corpse dropped from the Sky, before that moment Leras as full Human Being (with some cognitive deficit) was the Preservation's Vessel.

Are you so sure? I'll drop some quotes down below. I'm pretty sure that at that point Leras was pretty dead, and all the actions we see were pre arranged. I still think that he ment that he was litteraly dead, he is quite adamant on that point. I think it was the power that was still alive and acting in accordance to his plan.

Hero of Ages Epigraph 60

The prison Preservation created for Ruin was not created out of Preservation’s power, though it was of Preservation. Rather, Preservation sacrificed his consciousness—one could say his mind—to fabricate that prison. He left a shadow of himself, but Ruin, once escaped, began to suffocate and isolate this small remnant vestige of his rival. I wonder if Ruin ever thought it strange that Preservation had cut himself off from his own power, relinquishing it and leaving it in the world, to be gathered and used by men.

In Preservation’s gambit, I see nobility, cleverness, and desperation. He knew that he could not defeat Ruin. He had given too much of himself and, beyond that, he was the embodiment of stasis and stability. He could not destroy, not even to protect. It was against his nature. Hence the prison. Mankind, however, had been created by both Ruin and Preservation—with a hint of Preservation’s own soul to give them sentience and honor. In order for the world to survive, Preservation knew he had to depend upon his creations. To give them his trust.

I wonder what he thought when those creations repeatedly failed him.

QUESTION (PARAPHRASED)

So what happens when Shards die?

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

Well, it depends on how long the Shardholders have held the Shard. After they dies, the Shard is often able to continue acting, a kind of "Cognitive shadow". For example, the mists were able to continue doing what Preservation wished in helping out Vin and snapping people. With the Stormfather, he is that Cognitive shadow, and he's semi sentient. It's that power, but no one is actually holding it. We also see this on Threnody.

TAGS

shards, cognitive shadows, stormfather

[WeiryWriter]

QUESTION (PARAPHRASED)

So what happens when Shards die?

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

Well, it depends on how long the Shardholders have held the Shard. After they dies, the Shard is often able to continue acting, a kind of "Cognitive shadow". For example, the mists were able to continue doing what Preservation wished in helping out Vin and snapping people. With the Stormfather, he is that Cognitive shadow, and he's semi sentient. It's that power, but no one is actually holding it. We also see this on Threnody.

TAGS

shards, cognitive shadows, stormfather

 

This WoB isn't actually quite accurate on the count of Leras, here's a follow-up where Brandon says that Leras was still in the process of dying:

 

[Reddit - Mar 12, 2015]

WeiryWriter

Could you explain a little more about Cognitive shadows? When you first mentioned the name and gave the examples of Kelsier and the Shades from Threnody you kind of gave the impression that they were kind of like ghosts. But this past December at the Orem signing you mentioned that the Stormfather and the mist were also Cognitive shadows. The first makes sense to me, I had an entire theory about that (although I argued he was specifically Tanavast’s and not Honor’s). The second however really doesn't make sense to me, unless it was actually the mist spirit that is the shadow and that got missed in the report (it wasn’t verbatim), but even still Preservation is still alive at that point so how can he have a "ghost"? (Unless him sacrificing his mind to form Ruin’s prison counts as "death" in this situation?)

Brandon Sanderson

On the first question, I did not say the mists themselves were a cognitive shadow. That must have been a misunderstanding. The Stormfather totally is, though. Cognitive shadows are basically ghosts, which can take a lot of different forms in the cosmere, but follow general rules.

[Reddit]

WeiryWriter

Is the mist /spirit/ a Cognitive shadow then?

Brandon Sanderson

The mist spirit is a little more complicated than that. That was actually Leras, kind of. He was in the process of dying. But other things are involved there that, unfortunately, must be RAFOd.

[Blightsong]

I wonder what he was then... saying he's "a little more complicated than that" implies that he wasn't quite alive. We'lll have to see, I guess.

[Erinzard]

Good work Blightsong, this is great stuff!

 

Also:

"from mistborn sent 26 minutes ago
Ah, now you're getting into RAFO territory. Let's just say that you don't have to have a Seon to be made an Elantrian, but in the vast majority of cases, you need a spren to be a Knight Radiant. So there are some differences."

 

The vast majority of cases? So there are cases you can be a Knight Radiant without having a spren? 

[Yata]

Good work Blightsong, this is great stuff!

 

Also:

 

The vast majority of cases? So there are cases you can be a Knight Radiant without having a spren? 

If this answer came from before WoR release. It's possible that He talked of KR and Surgebinder as synonimus, because we did't know about Honorblades.

[Blightsong]

If this answer came from before WoR release. It's possible that He talked of KR and Surgebinder as synonimus, because we did't know about Honorblades.

The answer is from like a week ago...

[Nyali]

A question I'd raise is whether the Dakhor system is based on Devotion or Domination (or both).  It seems quite easy to say Domination...

 

Gah, it's Dominion, not Domination! They're not even related words! xD Dominion is nationalism, caring about your country, protecting your domain, and so on. It's about land, caring for it and controlling it. It has nothing to do with Domination.

 

Okay, that's not entirely true. Dominion can also mean control. But! It has strong land-based connotations. Control of the land, not control of a person. Though, control of a nation and their people would count... Pssh, I'm going to ignore that and assert that my point stands as is! <.<

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dominion

Check out the related terms too.

 

Anyway, due to the fragmented nature of the Dor, I don't think it's possible to assert that any one of the Selish magic systems is linked to either shard specifically, or even that it's more Devotion than Dominion or vice versa.

[Nyali]

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/dominion

Check out the related terms too.

 

The "Related terms" are terms with the same linguistic roots. I don't think "dominos" have much to do with dominion or domination beyond the word roots.

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

The "Related terms" are terms with the same linguistic roots. I don't think "dominos" have much to do with dominion or domination beyond the word roots.

 

uhmmm... RAFO? 

[CaptainRyan]

Gah, it's Dominion, not Domination! They're not even related words! xD 

 

do·min·ion

dəˈminyən/

noun

noun: dominion; plural noun: dominions

1. 1.

   sovereignty; control.

   "man's attempt to establish dominion over nature"

   synonyms: supremacy, ascendancy, dominance, domination, superiority, predominance,preeminence, hegemony, authority, 

   mastery, control, command, power, sway, rule,government, jurisdiction, sovereignty, suzerainty

   "at the time the Spartans had dominion over Athens"
2. 2.

   the territory of a sovereign or government.

   "the Angevin dominions"

   synonyms: dependency, colony, protectorate, territory, province, possession; 

   historicaltributary

   "a British dominion"

   • historical

     each of the self-governing territories of the British Commonwealth.

     noun: Dominion; plural noun: Dominions
3. 3.

   another term for domination (sense 2).

 

 

[emphasis mine]

Edited May 26, 2016 by CaptainRyan

[Nyali]

Which dictionary is that? I'm used to this definition (Merriam-Webster):

Simple Definition of dominion

• : the power to rule : control of a country, region, etc.

• : the land that a ruler or government controls

• Dominion : a country that was part of the British Empire but had its own government

Source: Merriam-Webster's Learner's Dictionary

 

 

Full Definition of dominion

1. domain

2. supreme authority :  sovereignty

3. plural :  an order of angels — see celestial hierarchy

4. often capitalized :  a self-governing nation of the Commonwealth of Nations other than the United Kingdom that acknowledges the British monarch as chief of state

5. absolute ownership

 

 

EDIT: I guess the distinction I'm trying to make is that I think of "Domination" as aggressively taking control of another person, group, or country, whereas I see "Dominion" as having control over a region. One has strong negative connotations, the other is completely neutral. Some dictionaries apparently conflate the two terms though, but I still think that when Brandon says "Dominion," he's talking about ruling, not conquering. Yes, the people we all associate with Dominion are all about dominating, but from my reading of Elantris, the point was that they were twisting their religion and beliefs to mean they should conquer, but that isn't what the religion or beliefs was actually about. Similar to Christianity being used to justify conquest during the Crusades, or Islam being used to justify terrorism in the modern era, both of which are religions that actually revolve around being peaceful.

Edited May 26, 2016 by Nyali

[CaptainRyan]

Which dictionary is that? I'm used to this definition (Merriam-Webster):

Simple Definition of dominion

• : the power to rule : control of a country, region, etc.

• : the land that a ruler or government controls

• Dominion : a country that was part of the British Empire but had its own government

Source: Merriam-Webster's Learner's Dictionary

 

 

Full Definition of dominion

1. domain

2. supreme authority :  sovereignty

3. plural :  an order of angels — see celestial hierarchy

4. often capitalized :  a self-governing nation of the Commonwealth of Nations other than the United Kingdom that acknowledges the British monarch as chief of state

5. absolute ownership

 

 

EDIT: I guess the distinction I'm trying to make is that I think of "Domination" as aggressively taking control of another person, group, or country, whereas I see "Dominion" as having control over a region. One has strong negative connotations, the other is completely neutral. Some dictionaries apparently conflate the two terms though, but I still think that when Brandon says "Dominion," he's talking about ruling, not conquering. Yes, the people we all associate with Dominion are all about dominating, but from my reading of Elantris, the point was that they were twisting their religion and beliefs to mean they should conquer, but that isn't what the religion or beliefs was actually about. Similar to Christianity being used to justify conquest during the Crusades, or Islam being used to justify terrorism in the modern era, both of which are religions that actually revolve around being peaceful.

 

It was from googling "dominion definition" and then I just copy/pasted the results.

Also, I think you are making an important point in distinguishing between the two. I honestly did not realize the nuances that existed but I find myself agreeing with your explanation of why the Shard "Dominion" might not be focused on dominating. I was mainly responding, somewhat pedantically, to the earlier assertion that the two words "aren't even related". Sorry for being a pedant.

[Nyali]

I was mainly responding, somewhat pedantically, to the earlier assertion that the two words "aren't even related".

 

Totally fair. Honestly, I never connected the meanings of the two words until I actually looked it up after making that post. You're right that the words are related - they definitely share the same roots, and dominion can have connotations of taking dominion of land that wasn't yours, or ruling your land, which is a form of domination over your subjects. But, the connotations and feel of the words are totally different to me.

 

I've seen some people consider Devotion and Dominion to be opposites - one being helping others and the other being controlling others. I don't see it that way - I see Devotion as dedication to the people and Dominion as dedication to the land. I see the Dor, the mixing of the two Shards, as the power/Intent of Nationalism or Patriotism.

 

 

While I can guess, I don't actually know much about how Brandon is using the word Dominion. But, my understanding is that each land has its own form-based magic, and conquering another land doesn't make your country's magic stronger. I do wonder though what would happen if one of the nations of Sel was completely dominated and conquered by another - once the people of Sel saw the land as now belonging to the conquering nation, would the people born in the conquered nation start being able to channel the powers of the conquering nation and not their old powers? Would they mix? Would the land the powers are bound to not change based on conquest (ie: are the nations divided the way they are because of the magic's geographical divisions, or are the magical geographical divisions where they are because of the way the land was divided between nations)?

[CaptainRyan]

I do wonder though what would happen if one of the nations of Sel was completely dominated and conquered by another - once the people of Sel saw the land as now belonging to the conquering nation, would the people born in the conquered nation start being able to channel the powers of the conquering nation and not their old powers? Would they mix? Would the land the powers are bound to not change based on conquest (ie: are the nations divided the way they are because of the magic's geographical divisions, or are the magical geographical divisions where they are because of the way the land was divided between nations)?

 

Oh, now this is a thought provoking question! If a unified Sel occurred would that erase or weaken certain magic systems at the expense of others or would it spread each magic system around the globe so that AonDor would work at full strength everywhere, Forgery too etc.?

[Blightsong]

Oh, now this is a thought provoking question! If a unified Sel occurred would that erase or weaken certain magic systems at the expense of others or would it spread each magic system around the globe so that AonDor would work at full strength everywhere, Forgery too etc.?

While there would only be one country or government, different cultures and ways of life would still exist through the planet. It would probably still be the same.