Oversleep Posted May 17, 2016 Report Share Posted May 17, 2016 That is assuming they have to take an oath at all. The implication that i got from the WoB is that the binding functions differently. The way I see it, there are two options. One: the voidspren in Surgebinding. It's basically like atium used in Allomancy, so it would create a different set of powers and oaths for the Surgebinder. Two: the human would bond the voidspren and become user of the Void system, which we know almost nothing about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted May 17, 2016 Report Share Posted May 17, 2016 (edited) The way I see it, there are two options. One: the voidspren in Surgebinding. It's basically like atium used in Allomancy, so it would create a different set of powers and oaths for the Surgebinder. Two: the human would bond the voidspren and become user of the Void system, which we know almost nothing about. So I think there is a third option. This is how I break down the WoB. Question Can anyone other than a Parshendi bond a voidspren? Like, can a human bond a voidspren? Brandon Sanderson That is theoretically possible but humans are not good at bonding spren in the same way. So we know the reason spren started bonding humans was they got something additional out of the deal. I do not recall if it was confirmed, but the implication was sapience. If the way the parshendi access the forms is a hint at how they gain voidforms, then it appears to be not a bond in the sense of two parties working together, but a symbiotic assimilation where they combine into one entity. True Eshonai needed the right frame of mind when she sang the song to attract the spren that turned her into stormform (not saying it is a voidform, just extrapolating on the process of combining with a spren), but there did not appear to me any oaths that were stated or had to be up kept. The transformation altered her at a physical and fundamental level. It was not a code she had to uphold, it was a frame of mind that she was transformed into. So I took that WoB meaning it is hard for humans to be of the same state as parshendi (if i recall they are closer to the cognitive realm or something than humans?), to combine and assimilate with a spren to become a voidbinder like they can. Again, this is my own interpretation. I am not saying this to say your theory is wrong or disagree with you. Just my two cents that may add to the discussion. Edited May 17, 2016 by Pathfinder 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurky McLurkerson he/him Posted May 18, 2016 Report Share Posted May 18, 2016 Differing perspectives are what make forums fun as long as no one gets hurt. I personally took that WoB to suggest that they wouldn't bond in the midst of a highstorm the way the Parshendi do, which I think actually supports the idea of ideals or oaths being potentially connected with the bond. We've seen a WoB that suggests that the Oaths can be worded slightly differently depending on the person. Maybe the truest form of an oath is a mindset. I know Kaladin needing to speak the oath is a solid flaw in this concept, but I think there is fun to be mined by exploring the idea. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jondesu he/him Posted May 18, 2016 Report Share Posted May 18, 2016 Differing perspectives are what make forums fun as long as no one gets hurt. I personally took that WoB to suggest that they wouldn't bond in the midst of a highstorm the way the Parshendi do, which I think actually supports the idea of ideals or oaths being potentially connected with the bond. We've seen a WoB that suggests that the Oaths can be worded slightly differently depending on the person. Maybe the truest form of an oath is a mindset. I know Kaladin needing to speak the oath is a solid flaw in this concept, but I think there is fun to be mined by exploring the idea. I don't know for sure about that last part. Listeners are more rooted in the Cognitive I believe I've understood, so perhaps for a human, speaking it is just usually necessary to cement the ideal fully in their Cognitive Identity. That would explain some of the differences. I suspect the Rythyms help with the correct mindset for the Listeners too. jW 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurky McLurkerson he/him Posted May 19, 2016 Report Share Posted May 19, 2016 I don't know for sure about that last part. Listeners are more rooted in the Cognitive I believe I've understood, so perhaps for a human, speaking it is just usually necessary to cement the ideal fully in their Cognitive Identity. That would explain some of the differences. I suspect the Rythyms help with the correct mindset for the Listeners too. jW I had written out a similar. Without the concision. Then Syl's insistence that Kaladin speak the oath caused me to second guess myself. Upvote for you and your courage, good sir. I really think this is the heart/thrust of the "focus" or connection to the shards for this world. This being said, what would Odium's oaths/cognitions look like? I imagine hatred, anger, or fear might be parts of the appropriate emotional cocktail. "I will destroy those who oppose me" or something along those lines. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omniforce he/him Posted May 26, 2016 Report Share Posted May 26, 2016 This is surgebinding/soulcasting discussion. Not quantum physics discussion. Please refrain from overloading the cosmere with math. They're having enough trouble figuring out movies as it is . 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenod Posted May 30, 2016 Report Share Posted May 30, 2016 This is surgebinding/soulcasting discussion. Not quantum physics discussion. Please refrain from overloading the cosmere with math. They're having enough trouble figuring out movies as it is . First of all, that was quite a few posts ago, and second, with the way magic in the Cosmere works these kind of things are quite relevant to discussions, iron feruchemy works by changing you interaction with the Higgs field for example (http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/52552-new-information-about-iron-feruchemy/). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 iron feruchemy works by changing you interaction with the Higgs field for example (http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/52552-new-information-about-iron-feruchemy/). Which doesn't make much sense, since from what I've read most mass in a body doesn't come from the Higgs field, but from the energy of the subatomic bonds in said body. IMO, It makes more sense to just say Iron Feruchemy creates energy from nothing and destroys it as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master_Moridin he/him Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 Which doesn't make much sense, since from what I've read most mass in a body doesn't come from the Higgs field, but from the energy of the subatomic bonds in said body. IMO, It makes more sense to just say Iron Feruchemy creates energy from nothing and destroys it as well. Subatomic bonds are the result of the transfer of force particles, which get their mass through Higgs field interactions. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenod Posted May 31, 2016 Report Share Posted May 31, 2016 Aaand, were having a science discussion again. :-) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted June 1, 2016 Report Share Posted June 1, 2016 Subatomic bonds are the result of the transfer of force particles, which get their mass through Higgs field interactions. Ohhhh. Now everything makes sense. Well, some sense at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
happyman he/him Posted June 1, 2016 Report Share Posted June 1, 2016 Subatomic bonds are the result of the transfer of force particles, which get their mass through Higgs field interactions. I'm afraid that's not the way it works. In the real world, if the interactions with the Higgs boson were changed, or even turned off, it would result in a person dying spectacularly as chemistry shifted unpredictably, but it wouldn't affect their mass much. Put more specifically, the bulk of the energy inside protons and neutrons comes from the kinetic energy of the quarks and gluons, minus the binding energy caused the the strong force. The gluons are massless, best we can tell, and the (up and down) quarks almost massless, by comparison with the proton. Even if both were perfectly massless, the proton would still have essentially the same total mass, due to its internal energy. I know that science popularizations claim that mass comes from the Higgs field interactions, but that's popular science for you. It 's dead wrong in this case. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted June 1, 2016 Report Share Posted June 1, 2016 (edited) Ohhhh. Now everything still makes almost no sense after all. That is why I am going to be a biologist. EDIT:Just joking. It makes sense, and I am going to become a biologist for other reasons. Edited June 1, 2016 by DreamEternal 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master_Moridin he/him Posted June 1, 2016 Report Share Posted June 1, 2016 I'm afraid that's not the way it works. In the real world, if the interactions with the Higgs boson were changed, or even turned off, it would result in a person dying spectacularly as chemistry shifted unpredictably, but it wouldn't affect their mass much. Put more specifically, the bulk of the energy inside protons and neutrons comes from the kinetic energy of the quarks and gluons, minus the binding energy caused the the strong force. The gluons are massless, best we can tell, and the (up and down) quarks almost massless, by comparison with the proton. Even if both were perfectly massless, the proton would still have essentially the same total mass, due to its internal energy. I know that science popularizations claim that mass comes from the Higgs field interactions, but that's popular science for you. It 's dead wrong in this case. Well, it's always possible the Cosmere runs off of popular science xD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VirtuousTraveller he/him Posted June 1, 2016 Report Share Posted June 1, 2016 Perhaps human could create a bond with Voidspren (thus creating a hack in Surgebinding similarly to malatium being used in Allomancy) by attracting it be being hateful or something like that. The powers it would grant? Remember the WoBs: 1) all magic on Roshar is tied to manipulating Ten Surges 2) malatium is gold fueled by Ruin I think it would grant access (in a twisted way) to the same Surges the Voidbringer would be able to access. Wait, I'm not sure I understand the reference to malatium being gold "fueled" by Ruin. Are you saying that a Vessel can directly endow some kind of specific power? As in, was malatium real or was it an allusion used by Ruin? While it seems somewhat useless as a power, I thought it was still occurred because of natural allomantic reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jondesu he/him Posted June 1, 2016 Report Share Posted June 1, 2016 Wait, I'm not sure I understand the reference to malatium being gold "fueled" by Ruin. Are you saying that a Vessel can directly endow some kind of specific power? As in, was malatium real or was it an allusion used by Ruin? While it seems somewhat useless as a power, I thought it was still occurred because of natural allomantic reasons. I think it's because it's gold alloyed with atium. Gold is just a metal, but Atium is Ruin's body, or power, or both. Thus, the gold effects are powered and changed by the atium. jW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurky McLurkerson he/him Posted June 2, 2016 Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 Wait, I'm not sure I understand the reference to malatium being gold "fueled" by Ruin. Are you saying that a Vessel can directly endow some kind of specific power? As in, was malatium real or was it an allusion used by Ruin? While it seems somewhat useless as a power, I thought it was still occurred because of natural allomantic reasons. I took it to mean that gold fueled by ruin in that it was an alloy of gold and atium. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kraefzke Posted June 2, 2016 Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 Ohhhh. Now everything still makes almost no sense after all. That is why I am going to be a biologist. EDIT:Just joking. It makes sense, and I am going to become a biologist for other reasons. Great choice! Upvote from a biologist. Also: Great discussion, everyone! Thank you very much! I will now go back to lurking and reading along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurky McLurkerson he/him Posted June 2, 2016 Report Share Posted June 2, 2016 Great choice! Upvote from a biologist. Also: Great discussion, everyone! Thank you very much! I will now go back to lurking and reading along. Lurking is where it is at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts