Jasnah and Shallan in that alley

[Ardjet]

I noticed something odd in that scene in The Way of Kings, where Jasnah takes Shallan out to that dark alleyway for a philosophy lesson.

 

The other two men fled in opposite directions. Jasnah took a deep breath, closing her eyes, lifting her hand above her head. Shallan held her safehand to her breast, stunned, confused. Terrified.
Stormlight shot from Jasnah's hand like twin bolts of lightning, symmetrical. One struck each of the footpads and they popped, puffing into smoke. Their empty clothing dropped to the ground.

My question is, how did Jasnah Soulcast at a distance? As far as I can recall, Soulcasting(both Surgebinding and fabrial) require touch.

And why did their clothing not turn in to smoke as well? The previous two transformations in that same scene(man into quartz, man into fire) affect their clothing.

 

Just something odd I noticed. But if Soulcasting can be done at a distance, it raises veeery interesting possibilities.

[Yata he/him]

Some people think she used both her surges together to Soulcast at distance (sending her Trasformation surge with Trasportation).

 

Or maybe it is not exactly the two surges but the secondary effect of her surges.

[QuantumSpren]

As for the clothing it's possible that it is harder to soulcast at a distance (and maybe needs more stormlight?) so she chose to only change the cognitive aspect of the people instead of doing the same for the clothing. When she changed the people into quartz and fire perhaps it was easy enough for her just to do both.

[Blightsong he/him]

I suspect that ranged soulcasting comes as a perk for speaking a later oath. It may also be because she is a Elsecaller, their Soulcasting will most likely work differently than a Lightweavers. Khriss alluded to the fact that surges act profoundly different for different orders.

[Nashan’Elin he/him]

She closed her eyes, so she could have sent herself partially to Shadesmar, and touched them there.

[Ardjet]

I was thinking that could be possible, that she half-transitioned to Shadesmar and touched their soul-flame beads. I'm dubious of this because it was done so quickly. She raises her hand and then it happens. If it is indeed a peculiar ability unique to her, why did she have to touch the Soulcast jam and bread in a later scene? Why didn't she change them before?

[Argent he/him]

I was thinking that could be possible, that she half-transitioned to Shadesmar and touched their soul-flame beads. I'm dubious of this because it was done so quickly. She raises her hand and then it happens. If it is indeed a peculiar ability unique to her, why did she have to touch the Soulcast jam and bread in a later scene? Why didn't she change them before?

 

I am pretty sure time flows differently in Shadesmar, so that could explain the time differences. 

 

As for the jam and bread, it's possible that Soulcasting at a distance is imprecise and/or more difficult, and she didn't want to add extra difficulty on top of what was already a difficult Soulcasting for her.

 

But honestly, we don't know enough about Soulcasting.

[Ardjet]

I am pretty sure time flows differently in Shadesmar, so that could explain the time differences. 

 

As for the jam and bread, it's possible that Soulcasting at a distance is imprecise and/or more difficult, and she didn't want to add extra difficulty on top of what was already a difficult Soulcasting for her.

 

But honestly, we don't know enough about Soulcasting.

True, we do not and I can't wait to learn more. It could have so many applications for a Surgebinder, who isn't limited by a fabrial. I mean, there are already a horde of uses with just the Fabrials. Being able to Soulcast nearly at will(dependant on Stormlight) is huge. Just look at how often Jasnah does it, and she's trying to be sneaky about it(By the time Shallan accidentally Soulcats the goblet into blood, she has dozens of images depicting Jasnah soulcasting). I mean, she uses it to burn some notes at her desk rather than wait to throw it into a hearth. How useful would it be to, in modern- or future-period Roshar, to be able to soulcast a length of road, or soulcast metal for a starship(Shardship?).

 

I'll have to pay attention during my re-read to see if time is affected by the characters being in Shadesmar. That would be interesting, too.

[Argel he/him]

She was not being subtle in the alley, but was with the assassin, presumably to avoid tipping him off. Recall hat she got the location of the poison and the antidote wrong. I think the original idea was to let the assassin poison himself to death. I also doubt she wanted to risk the assassin learning of her true abilities and escaping with that knowledge.

[Clockwork he/him]

In Shadows of Self, The Ars Arcanum Says this;

 

On Scadrial, someone with one Allomantic and one Feruchemical power is called "Twinborn." The effects here are more subtle than they are when mixing Surges on Roshar, but I am convinced that each unique combination creates something distinctive. Not just two powers, you could say, but two powers. . . and an effect.

So I would guess that it's an effect of having both Transportation and Transformation; The Surge of Transportation includes 'Motion', so I would assume it's because the two powers are working together.

[11thorderknight]

In Shadows of Self, The Ars Arcanum Says this;

So I would guess that it's an effect of having both Transportation and Transformation; The Surge of Transportation includes 'Motion', so I would assume it's because the two powers are working together.

 

I think people are being far too literal in their interpretation of two Surges working together. We have WoB that when two adjacent orders use their shared Surge, the Surge works the same way for both. The "effect" of the overlap seems to be something that is inherent to the character of the individuals of the Order in question - for instance, Windrunners have their unique fighting abilities (Kaladin several times remarks that he can almost feel the wind telling him what his opponents are doing), and Lightweavers have their individual cognitive abilities (in Shallan's case, her Memories). It's strongly implied that Jasnah, as an Elsecaller, has a supernatural sense of direction, and that Skybreakers (the original, not the new-age cult) have a supernatural ability to detect lying. None of these effects are a direct result of using a Surge, but they do define the Orders to which they belong. 

 

Regarding the alley - it's quite possible that any Lightweaver or Elsecaller would be able to Soulcast at a short distance with enough practice. We just don't know. Jasnah probably doesn't do it often because the fabrials don't give that ability, and throwing lightning bolts around would tip people off. 

[Argel he/him]

And she let's Shallan see it because she wants someone in on her secret? That does seem beleievable -- I always thought that was a big reason why Jasnah was willing to forgive Shallan later on. Jasnah may put on a brave face, but it had to be lonely at times. (The other reason being how short on time they were).

[11thorderknight]

And she let's Shallan see it because she wants someone in on her secret? That does seem beleievable -- I always thought that was a big reason why Jasnah was willing to forgive Shallan later on. Jasnah may put on a brave face, but it had to be lonely at times. (The other reason being how short on time they were).

 

For all we know, an ardent that has lots of practice might have been able to do the same feat with a fabrial. 

[Blightsong he/him]

I think people are being far too literal in their interpretation of two Surges working together. We have WoB that when two adjacent orders use their shared Surge, the Surge works the same way for both. The "effect" of the overlap seems to be something that is inherent to the character of the individuals of the Order in question - for instance, Windrunners have their unique fighting abilities (Kaladin several times remarks that he can almost feel the wind telling him what his opponents are doing), and Lightweavers have their individual cognitive abilities (in Shallan's case, her Memories). It's strongly implied that Jasnah, as an Elsecaller, has a supernatural sense of direction, and that Skybreakers (the original, not the new-age cult) have a supernatural ability to detect lying. None of these effects are a direct result of using a Surge, but they do define the Orders to which they belong.

Regarding the alley - it's quite possible that any Lightweaver or Elsecaller would be able to Soulcast at a short distance with enough practice. We just don't know. Jasnah probably doesn't do it often because the fabrials don't give that ability, and throwing lightning bolts around would tip people off.

Can I see that WoB? The closest thing I remember to this is him saying that Skybreakers using lashings will look 'much the same' as a Windrunner flying around. This doesn't mean it works exactly the same way, and certainly doesn't mean that all surges work exactly the same way. In fact we have know that Elsecallers and Lightweavers aren't abke to effectively soulcast the same things, so that is one case where we know that your statement is untrue. Edited April 29, 2016 by Blightsong

[Sygrin]

Hi guys, first post here, long time lurker.

From what I gathered, the combination of surges manifests in a third "power". In the case of the windrunner lashings:

Gravitational surge - lashing to a distant point and flying(falling).

Adhesion surge - lashing and sticking two objects together.

Both surges together - full lashing, giving an object the ability to have its own gravitational field pulling everything to it and sticking there.

His fighting skill when protecting is a boon - but not one that has been confirmed to be THE uniquely windrunner ability.

I think for shallan, her ability to take memories is unique to her, not Lightweavers. The unique Lightweaver ability might be how she can transform people through their illusions - like she did with Gaz and the others.

Soulcasting at a distance then seems to me to be the unique elsecaller ability.

I might be totally wrong and a WoB has completely invalidated this hypothesis, in which case I'd like to ask for the relevant Wob to enlighten my ignorant self.

[galendo]

From what I gathered, the combination of surges manifests in a third "power". In the case of the windrunner lashings:

Gravitational surge - lashing to a distant point and flying(falling).

Adhesion surge - lashing and sticking two objects together.

Both surges together - full lashing, giving an object the ability to have its own gravitational field pulling everything to it and sticking there.

 

...

 

I think for shallan, her ability to take memories is unique to her, not Lightweavers.

I think this is wrong, though I admit I can't be completely certain.  My interpretation is that both of the gravity-based lashings are simply part of the gravitation surge.  One makes something fall toward a distant center of gravity, the other makes something nearby into a local center of gravity.

 

Shallan's ability to take instantaneous, photographic images is pretty clearly supernatural, though, so it's almost certainly the Lightweaver "bonus" ability, much as Jasnah's direction sense is likely the Elsecaller ability.  It turns out that no one -- literally no one -- has ever been confirmed to have an actual photographic memory in real life.  It's just not something a human can do.  Since the ability is clearly supernatural, and since the only supernatural thing Shallan has going on is her Lightweaver bond, the supernatural memory is almost certainly the Lightweaver ability.

[Ardjet]

Also, just to point out, Shallan only sees Cryptics when she 'takes a Memory". I don't mean spren, like Pattern most times. But stiff-cloak Cryptics.

[natc]

Hi guys, first post here, long time lurker.

From what I gathered, the combination of surges manifests in a third "power". In the case of the windrunner lashings:

Gravitational surge - lashing to a distant point and flying(falling).

Adhesion surge - lashing and sticking two objects together.

Both surges together - full lashing, giving an object the ability to have its own gravitational field pulling everything to it and sticking there.

His fighting skill when protecting is a boon - but not one that has been confirmed to be THE uniquely windrunner ability.

I think for shallan, her ability to take memories is unique to her, not Lightweavers. The unique Lightweaver ability might be how she can transform people through their illusions - like she did with Gaz and the others.

Soulcasting at a distance then seems to me to be the unique elsecaller ability.

I might be totally wrong and a WoB has completely invalidated this hypothesis, in which case I'd like to ask for the relevant Wob to enlighten my ignorant self.

For the record, lashing things together with adhesion is full lashing, while drawing things to a point is reverse lashing. Which is entirely gravity.

[AerionBFII he/him]

I thought it was just her Surgebinding of Transformation being superior to man made Fabrials, using her will to push it since that deep breath signified using more effort that even a normal transformation.

[Ardjet]

I thought it was just her Surgebinding of Transformation being superior to man made Fabrials, using her will to push it since that deep breath signified using more effort that even a normal transformation.

I do accept that as a possibility. I won't flat out deny anything until we get Words of Brandon or an in-book explanation. Personally, I assumed the closing eyes and deep breath was for looking into Shadesmar to find the soul-flames of the assailants. But I do have to question, given that even when she soulcasts normally she needs to touch to do it. Shallan mentions she made dozens of sketches of Jasnah soulcasting when she was trying to figure out how to do it, with no mention of doing it at any distance.. And during the poisoning attempt, why would she not soulcast the jam and bread before anyone even touches it, if she suspected? It was more out-of-character for her to actually try the jam that she's been flat refusing for weeks.

Maybe I'm chasing a red herring here, but I have questions that beg answers.

[The Ninja Yodeler he/him]

I do accept that as a possibility. I won't flat out deny anything until we get Words of Brandon or an in-book explanation. Personally, I assumed the closing eyes and deep breath was for looking into Shadesmar to find the soul-flames of the assailants. But I do have to question, given that even when she soulcasts normally she needs to touch to do it. Shallan mentions she made dozens of sketches of Jasnah soulcasting when she was trying to figure out how to do it, with no mention of doing it at any distance.. And during the poisoning attempt, why would she not soulcast the jam and bread before anyone even touches it, if she suspected? It was more out-of-character for her to actually try the jam that she's been flat refusing for weeks.

Maybe I'm chasing a red herring here, but I have questions that beg answers.

Maybe with regular soulcasters(the tool), you do have to actually touch what you're soulcasting for it to work. Maybe she doesn't have to, being a natural soulcaster. She may have developed the habit so people didn't ask any more questions than they were already asking.

[AerionBFII he/him]

Maybe with regular soulcasters(the tool), you do have to actually touch what you're soulcasting for it to work. Maybe she doesn't have to, being a natural soulcaster. She may have developed the habit so people didn't ask any more questions than they were already asking.

Yerp +1 . She's already catching stink eye from the fanatic anti Radiant Ardents for possessing a Soulcaster, the Ghostbloods for killing members and opposing them and the Diagramers for causing them future trouble and most likely the Sons. I don't think she would like to draw too much attention to the fact she can use her Soulcasters better than anybody else despite the fact it's a fake.

[OdiYum]

do fabrials give access to shadesmar? Maybe fabrial users need to touch to make a connection to the cognitive version of a person, while Jasnah can do that while partially phased into shadesmar. Distances and time are not the same there.