Was Rayse supposed to be one of the 16?

[QuantumSpren]

Compared to what we have seen of the other shards, Rayse is the only one that we have seen to be a terrible person pre-shattering, and why would the other shards want to do this with such a terrible person? So I was wondering if Hoid was originally going to be the sixteenth shard and Rayse took his place. This could be why Hoid hates him so much.

Edited April 22, 2016 by QuantumSpren

[Blightsong he/him]

I doubt that he stole a shard. Frost tells Hoid that Rayse was "who we made him to be", so it seems like the 16 intentionally have him the Shard.

[BrightVoid he/him]

I got the feeling that he was not the greatest person pre-shattering, and Odium has warped him since then.

[Titan Arum]

So I was wondering if Hoid was originally going to be the sixteenth shard and Rayse took his place. This could be why Hoid hates him so much.

 

Quantum, I do not think that Hoid had his place taken by Rayse. He may have had a place offered to him, but I don't think he took it. 

 

Secret History Spoilers, emphasis mine:

Preservation on Hoid and what I assume is a reference to the shattering, after Hoid takes the lerasium at the Well: "I had thought that when he rejected the rest of us, he would stop interfering. I should have known better than to trust an implication from him. Half the time you can't trust his outright promises...

Edited April 22, 2016 by Titan Arum

[QuantumSpren]

I forgot about that quote, though that kind of blows my theory out of the water, I still wonder why the other 15 would let Rayse be a part of the shattering when he was a terrible person and likely to betray them.

[Titan Arum]

Quantum, you have to take how the other Shards feel about Rayse with a grain of salt. We only have word from Hoid about how he feels, and I think Cultivation? That's a small sample relative to other Shards' feelings.

 

Anyway, you may also be confusing yourself with the Intent of the Shard of Odium: Hatred. I can only imagine how easily that Intent could corrupt someone, even if they were the gentlest of souls. For example, Ati was supposedly a pretty decent person, but the Intent of Ruin pushed him to embracing decay and destruction. 

[Vissy]

It's not so hard to imagine why. Rayse's deviousness might've been needed to take down Adonalsium. Rayse was supposedly a genius at intrigue, backstabbing and betrayal long before ever gaining Shardic powers.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Varangian

[QuantumSpren]

Titan that is my point, the letter said that ati was decent, but said that Rayse was a terrible person and we have WoB's saying that odium matches his personality. This all points to a terrible pre-shattering Rayse.

[Titan Arum]

Quantum, can you point me to the WoB that says Rayse's original personality matched the Intent of Odium? I cannot find it, if it does exist. I have, though, found WoB that matches what I've already said: take what we learn in the Letter with a grain of salt. It's biased towards Hoid's own opinion.

 

  NEPENE

I have a question, if you are willing. Would Ruin be more compatible with Rayse, would he pick up that shard had he visited Scadrial and shattered him? All the shards we have seen that he has shattered seem rather different in intent than him—Honor, Cultivation, Love, Dominion. But Ruin seems more in line with Odium. Rayse has ruined the days of quite a few people.

BRANDON SANDERSON

Technically, Ruin would be most compatible with Cultivation. Ruin's 'theme' so to speak is that all things must age and pass. An embodiment of entropy. That power, separated from the whole and being held by a person who did not have the willpower to resist its transformation of him, led to something very dangerous. But it was not evil. None of the sixteen technically are, though you may have read that Hoid has specific beef with Rayse. Whether you think of Odium as evil depends upon how much you agree with Hoid's particular view.

That said, Ruin would have been one of the 'safer' of the sixteen for Rayse to take, if he'd been about that. Odium is by its nature selfish, however, and the combination of it and Rayse makes for an entity that fears an additional power would destroy it and make it into something else.

[QuantumSpren]

 

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (PARAPHRASED)

Odium wants to be the only Shard. Odium could pick up other Shards if he wants to, but, he doesn't want to. His Shard is a good match for his personality and he doesn't want to be influenced by another Shard.

This is my first time quoting so if I have done anything wrong please inform me.

[Quiver he/him]

This is my first time quoting so if I have done anything wrong please inform me.

I'd say being "a good match" is vague enough to be useless in discussion, particularly since we don't know what that means.

It could range anything from "He had a hateful personality in-line with Odium's Intent", to " He had a personality that would temper and not be easily persuaded by Odium's Intent".

...granted, I think the text contrasting him with Ati is a good indicator that they mean the former, but still. We don't know what the Shattering or the participants were like, so judging stuff is...hard.

[QuantumSpren]

I'd say being "a good match" is vague enough to be useless in discussion, particularly since we don't know what that means.

It could range anything from "He had a hateful personality in-line with Odium's Intent", to " He had a personality that would temper and not be easily persuaded by Odium's Intent".

...granted, I think the text contrasting him with Ati is a good indicator that they mean the former, but still. We don't know what the Shattering or the participants were like, so judging stuff is...hard.

I would also say that it is very likely the former as WoB says that he doesn't want to be influenced by another shard, so it seems like he wants to keep Odium's intent pure while another shard could help him to resist it.

[Quiver he/him]

I would also say that it is very likely the former as WoB says that he doesn't want to be influenced by another shard, so it seems like he wants to keep Odium's intent pure while another shard could help him to resist it.

Absolutely- I would just argue whether we have enough information on why Rayse doesn't want the Intent corrupted.

It could be that hid personality is on-line enough with Odium that he still has a personality, rather than just being Odium. It might be that he doesn't know how picking up other shards will mess with his Intent, so not picking them up is a calculated thing.

Or it might be that Hatred just doesn't want to pick them up to begin with. After all, Brandon says Odium doesn't want to pick up the Shards. That leaves it ambiguous as to whether or not Rayse would want to.

[QuantumSpren]

Absolutely- I would just argue whether we have enough information on why Rayse doesn't want the Intent corrupted.

It could be that hid personality is on-line enough with Odium that he still has a personality, rather than just being Odium. It might be that he doesn't know how picking up other shards will mess with his Intent, so not picking them up is a calculated thing.

Or it might be that Hatred just doesn't want to pick them up to begin with. After all, Brandon says Odium doesn't want to pick up the Shards. That leaves it ambiguous as to whether or not Rayse would want to.

Fair point, I took the quote as saying that Odium's Personality (which I assumed to be Rayse) doesn't want to take up other shards, but I can see how it can be taken another way.

[Titan Arum]

Quiver, there is verbatim WoB where Brandon says Rayse doesn't want to pick up additional Shards because it could/will change the Intent. Whether or not he's confusing Rayse with Odium is the question here. 

 

 

AUTARCHK, from Reddit (MARCH 2013)

If I can ask a question, I just read the Mistborn trilogy and, were Preservation and Ruin two different shards or a single one with their power split somehow? If they were two shards, does that mean a single person can hold more than one, since Harmony apparently holds both now?

BRANDON SANDERSON

They were two shards.

Yes, one entity can hold more than one. Remember that holding a shard changes you, over time. Rayse knows this, and prefers to leave behind destroyed rivals as opposed to taking their power and potentially being overwhelmed by it.

Edited April 22, 2016 by Titan Arum

[Quiver he/him]

Quiver, there is verbatim WoB where Brandon says Rayse doesn't want to pick up additional Shards because it could/will change the Intent. Whether or not he's confusing Rayse with Odium is the question here.

Ah. I stand corrected.

This is why I don't post in these sections much! : P

[ZotarDragonSlayer he/him]

Question, do we have a WoB about if Hoid actually wanted to be a shard? 

 

My question, from WoK and WoR we know that there is a way (however unreliable) that someone could basically predict the future. Bearing that in mind I believe that all the shardholders were supposed to be there at the shattering.

 

Man I can't wait to figure out what really happened though, makes me jubilant just thinking about it.

[Paladin Brewer he/him]

Honestly though Rayse stands out as a super jerk, you have to wonder how "nice" any of them were considering they felt a need to destroy a god/power and take that power for themselves. Granted we don't know the intent as this juncture.  Either the other shardbearers don't know how much of a jerk Rayse is (I can't imagine they would willingly want someone who will end up trying to kill them later), or he was flat out necessary to the cause, and the enemy of your enemy is your friend, so to speak.

 

I'm a bit curious to why the other shards don't seem to be coming together to stand up to Rayse, unless they don't realize his intent yet, but that would seem silly to me since Hoid seems to know just fine.

[Vissy]

Most Shards might already have Invested themselves too heavily to some systems or planets to be able to leave.

[Blackhoof]

I'm curious as to how Odium can even defeat or shatter other Shards when they are theoretically as powerful as he is.

And how did he beat both Dominion and Devotion on Sel?

[Eki]

I'm curious as to how Odium can even defeat or shatter other Shards when they are theoretically as powerful as he is.

And how did he beat both Dominion and Devotion on Sel?

I think there was some WoB that he got help from Autonomy (whose intent probably goes against both Dominion and Devotion)... Not sure though, I don't have a link to it.

[Jondesu he/him]

Compared to what we have seen of the other shards, Rayse is the only one that we have seen to be a terrible person pre-shattering, and why would the other shards want to do this with such a terrible person?

Okay, you got me thinking here, on a different tangent than you expected.  Which of the other 16 might have been terrible?  If Bavadin/Autonomy (not sure if that's confirmed) was helping Odium, was he also awful, pre-shattering?  If it was a big conspiracy, doesn't it seem likely that some of them were at least ruthless, if not outright evil?  Who else might be, and what Shards, dangerous or not, are they holding now?

 

jW

[Asperity he/him]

I'm curious as to how Odium can even defeat or shatter other Shards when they are theoretically as powerful as he is.

And how did he beat both Dominion and Devotion on Sel?

Odium also knows about the weapon that opposed Adonalsium.

 

I'm not saying that would be THE reason why Odium is able to one-up other Shards but perhaps it grants him some insight as to how to go about such an outcome that the other Shards don't know about. Of course, we don't know if the other Shards (or, specifically, other original Vessels) also know about the anti-Adonalsium.

[Rasarr she/her]

I'm curious as to how Odium can even defeat or shatter other Shards when they are theoretically as powerful as he is.

And how did he beat both Dominion and Devotion on Sel?

 

I suppose Odium is unInvested in any world, or at least not Invested anywhere near the level of shards such as Preservation or Honor. While they all started out as 1/16 of Adonalsium, many have "locked" their powers in planets, metals, etc. and likely can't "pull it out" easily, which gives Odium an edge, power-level-wise. Adding to that, Odium's Intent is quite uniquely suited to killing other Shards - I suspect of the 16 Ruin is the only one who could out-destroy Odium, and Ruin - and, by extension, Harmony - is heavily Invested in Scadrial. 

 

Then there's the possibility that Odium's been working together with Autonomy, and the fact that we don't really know anything about Aona and Skai. If Arelon and Fjordell's relationship is any indicator, the two's dynamic may be closer to Ruin/Preservation than Honor/Cultivation, which would allow Odium to manipulate one or both into a war, siding with one of them and then finishing them off while they're weakened.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Rasarr

[Eki]

Odium seems to be invested in Braize now (he's said to be "trapped", and Desolations seem to be manifestations of his power on Roshar), but he may have been uninvested anywhere when he attacked Sel, which seems to be a long time ago.