Honor and Cultivation

[Vissy]

Hey! This is my first thread on this forum. I'll just jump straight into the meat and bones of the thing.

 

These two Shards are apparently the ones that jointly created Roshar. I've read all of the Stormlight Archives (and most of Brandon's works) but I never pieced this together. Some people did, though, though I have no idea where that information came from. 

 

If I remember correctly, Cultivation resides in Shinovar. But Honor is supposed to be dead, killed by someone. If Honor is dead, then, does that not imply that nobody has taken up Honor's shard and Ascended? If this works like Mistborn, then Honor's power should just be lying about somewhere. 

 

My guess is that both Honor and Cultivation's powers reside in Shinovar. It's the only place that makes sense. (Or maybe Honor pulled a Preservation and spread his power to the planet). I'd really like to expand this thought, though. Do we know anything more about Honor and Cultivation?

Edited April 18, 2016 by Varangian

[Jondesu he/him]

Actually, Roshar was created by Adolnasium (I believe that's basically stated in one of the Letters), but you're right of course about Honor and Cultivation being present. Cultivation is alive and well, with some thinking she may be the Nightwatcher, but remember that Shards wouldn't reside in a particular location on a planet.

Honor, on the other hand, has not only been left without a Shardholder, as Tanavast was murdered by Rayse/Odium, but was then also Splintered. The Shard isn't just laying around, but it's power was somehow dispersed, split up. We don't know entirely how that works, but have another example with the Splintered Shards of Devotion and Dominion on Sel, in Elantris.

jW

[Vander]

Consider the spren, especially- they are most likely little what it "split" into. You know, tiny pieces of cognitive investiture, and so on.

[DSC01 he/him]

Actually, Roshar was created by Adolnasium (I believe that's basically stated in one of the Letters), but you're right of course about Honor and Cultivation being present. Cultivation is alive and well, with some thinking she may be the Nightwatcher, but remember that Shards wouldn't reside in a particular location on a planet.

Honor, on the other hand, has not only been left without a Shardholder, as Tanavast was murdered by Rayse/Odium, but was then also Splintered. The Shard isn't just laying around, but it's power was somehow dispersed, split up. We don't know entirely how that works, but have another example with the Splintered Shards of Devotion and Dominion on Sel, in Elantris.

jW

 

Are you thinking of the line in the second letter that says, "The worlds you now tread bear the touch and design of Adonalsium"? I don't know that this necessarily indicates that Adonalsium created Roshar. I think that (s)he/it probably did, but that line seems to apply to all the worlds that Hoid is running about on, and Scadrial, for one, definitely owes most or all of its creation to Preservation and Ruin. I think the line points more to Frost's general philosophy about the Cosmere--that Adonalsium's influence remains, whatever the Shards have done since the Shattering--and doesn't say much about the specifics of what is going on with Roshar.

[Master_Moridin he/him]

WoB is Roshar was around before Honor and Cultivation showed up there, and that there were Splinters of Adonalsium on it
 

Lance Alvein
Did Cultivation come to Roshar with Honor, or was she already on Roshar when Honor arrived?

Brandon Sanderson
Good question. They came together.
(source)

Wetlander
Please explain what you will about Shards and Splintering and Slivers.

Brandon Sanderson
An event happened long ago which destroyed something called Adonalsium into 16 pieces. And 16 people took up that power.

Question
People?

Brandon Sanderson
I call all intelligent species people. *snip for Mistborn spoilers* A Splinter is a term used by certain people in the cosmere for power of Adonalsium which has no person caring for it, no... no person holding it, which has attained self-awareness.

Wetlander
So is that like the mists and the Well? Are they...

Brandon Sanderson
They are not, because they have not attained self-awareness. But, the Seons are self-aware. So, any piece, for instance there were some spren on Roshar before Honor and Cultivation got there. Those were already Splinters of Adonalsium where he had left power which attained sentience on its own. So, it can be intentional is what I am saying, does that make sense? You have seen other splinters.

Wetlander
Are the highstorms related to the splintering of Honor?

Brandon Sanderson
The highstorms are more related to the mist from Mistborn which terminology we have not discussed yet. You have seen splinters quite a bit on various planets.
(source)

[Obi-WanLebowski]

All of the planets existed before any shardholders showed up actually.

 

http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=700#3

[Master_Moridin he/him]

WoB that Ruin and Preservation created Scadrial
 

Chaos (17 October 2008)
Would the Three Metallic Arts operate in other worlds, or are they direct results of Ruin and Preservation and thus only operate in Scadrial?

Brandon Sanderson (20 October 2008)
To use Feruchemy or Allomancy in almost every case, one must have the right spiritual and genetic codes, imprinted upon people during the creation of Scadrial by Ati and Leras. To use Hemalurgy, one must first have someone with these right spiritual and genetic codes, then take the power from them. Other people on other worlds are not going to simply discover the Three Metallic Arts by accident.
(source)

[Eki]

Consider the spren, especially- they are most likely little what it "split" into. You know, tiny pieces of cognitive investiture, and so on.

Spren existed before Honor splintered though - the Knights were around before then. I don't think we know if the lesser spren existed, but (some of) the more sentient spren definitely did. Maybe the sentient spren were splinters Honor (and Cultivation) made while he was alive, and the lesser ones the result of the splintering? But some lesser spren seem to be more aligned to Cultivation... I think many spren might be splinters of Adolnasium itself, though.

 

 

 

WoB that Ruin and Preservation created Scadrial

 

That could just be a reference to them creating life on an existing lump of rock (or one with life, but no people), though.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Eki

[Blightsong he/him]

Spren existed before Honor splintered though - the Knights were around before then. I don't think we know if the lesser spren existed, but (some of) the more sentient spren definitely did. Maybe the sentient spren were splinters Honor (and Cultivation) made while he was alive, and the lesser ones the result of the splintering? But some lesser spren seem to be more aligned to Cultivation... I think many spren might be splinters of Adolnasium itself, though.

That could just be a reference to them creating life on an existing lump of rock (or one with life, but no people), though.

Im on mobile so I can't link an exact WoB right now, but he had confirmed that Shard's can create planets, and has either heavily hinted at our confirmed outright that Scadrial was created by those two shards

[Vissy]

Well, if Ruin can destroy a planet, then that would imply that a Shard also has the opposite power, to create a planet.

[baby he/him]

Destroying is easier than creating though.

[Vander]

Destroying is easier than creating though.

Not so! Destroying requires  You need to     Ninja Yodelers have

 

I got nothing

 

I'll prove it one day...

[Vissy]

Shards are supposed to be more or less omnipotent, only bound by their Intent (and by some in-universe laws we are not privy to). If this claim holds water, then it should be possible for Shards to create planets.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Varangian

[Knight Oblivion]

That could just be a reference to them creating life on an existing lump of rock (or one with life, but no people), though.

I don't have my copies of the Mistborn Era 1 novels anywhere on hand right now, but I think this is wrong. We have instances, if I recall correctly, of Ati/Ruin outright saying he created Scadrial (implying that everything but humans, including rocks, was half from him and half from Preservation) and, if I again recall correctly, Vin and Saved both comment on it once they ascend.

I don't recall if anything is mentioned in Secret History though. I've only read it once and am just now working on reading it again.

Anyways, I feel that the OP's questions and thoughts have been answered/corrected already. I have nothing to add to that.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Knight Oblivion

[natc]

I mean all it really takes to create Scadrial is a lot of scientific knowhow on godlike levels to figure out how it all goes together in the first place, then dedicating a lot of investiture to provide the mass.

Even normal invested healing seems to create flesh out of nothing, turning investiture into matter is definitely doable.

Edited April 19, 2016 by natc

[Master_Moridin he/him]

Well, we have a post here with a quote saying that Preservation and Ruin specifically created Scadrial, and I remember seeing the source the quote comes from, but I can't find it

 

http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/53493-mysterious-name-drop-sh-spoilers/#entry418448

 

SH spoilers in the thread

[Eki]

There are contradicting WoBs, one saying the planets were all there before shards got there (the one Obi-WanLebowski posted above), and one (some?) saying Ruin and Preservation made Scadrial. I was just trying to reconcile the two.

In any case, I don't doubt a shard could have the power to create a planet on their own.

[Charlie.x.3000]

Maybe Scardrial was just a small asteroid floating in the Goldilocks zone, and Ruin and Preservation made it a planet by adding mass, water, atmosphere, etc. So it 'existed' before the two shards got there, but in an insignificant way, and Ruin and Preservation essentially created the planet known as Scardrial. They also decided to keep the original name.

[Stormgate he/him]

Scadrial was formed by Preservation and Ruin. Preservation created Scadrial to have a focus that was easily exploitable, to allow Preservation to capture Ruin and turn his power into atium.

I'm not quite sure how much of that is confirmed versus my speculation.

[Eki]

I'm not sure if the shards have that much influence over how their magic system develops...

[natc]

They don't. At all.

But since they arise naturally, it stands to reason that, with all that future sight, one can predict what systems will arise if you create a planet at a certain spot with a certain combination of shards.

[Yata he/him]

They don't. At all.

But since they arise naturally, it stands to reason that, with all that future sight, one can predict what systems will arise if you create a planet at a certain spot with a certain combination of shards.

It's like I though... Preservation made Scadrial itself as part of his plan for Ruin... With enough future sight you may obtain at the first try something that elsewhere need many try and error.

[Vissy]

The crazy thing is that Preservation's foresight isn't even the most powerful of all the Shards. Preservation, who planned thousands of years ahead from the very conception of his and Ruin's co-operation, and managed to make such a sneaky plan that it held for all the time it needed to. 

Edited April 27, 2016 by Varangian

[DreamEternal]

The crazy thing is that Preservation's foresight isn't even the most powerful of all the Shards.

Are we sure about that? WoB or it didn't happen.

[BrightVoid he/him]

^ Agreed, we need a confirmation on that, or we have another set of issues to deal with in the cosmere