Southern Scadrian Linguistics

[Titan Arum]

Previous WoB has shown that the names of many of our favorite Northern Scadrians from the Central Dominance sound French. Without “hearing” the language or seeing it written, we can only assume it, as a whole, is French sounding.

 

Brandon: The Central Dominance is intentionally French sounding. I say Vin's name like an American would, but everyone in world would say it with a French accent. Same goes for Kelsier, (which they would say Kel-syay.) Again, I say it as an American would, but then I'm not from the Central Dominance.

source

 

As I’ve been re-reading BoM, I noticed that Allik’s use of language sounded distinct from what we’ve been accustomed to from Northern Scadrial. His words reminded me of a Germanic language. I first noticed this when he used the medallion to speak in the language of our protagonists, because he kept ending sentences with “yah”. This is the same sound that the word “yes” in German makes, and is spelled “ja”.

 

Then came the word “Jaggenmire” that didn’t translate to our protagonists’ language. Marasi tried to pronounce it and came up with the following:

 

“Wait,” Marasi said, speaking softly so the others could sleep, “the…yayg—“

She hears the “Ja” sound as a “yay” sound, which is similar to Allik’s frequent use of “yah”.  

 

This was further evidence to me that Allik’s language is Germanic in nature. Now it was time to dig deeper, and find other words to help provide evidence for my hypothesis. After further research, I think his language is actually linguistically similar to Northern Germanic— i.e., Scandinavian, specifically Danish. (Note, Denmark is literally just north of Germany.)

 

I started my linguistic sleuthing with Allik’s name and googled German names similar to “Allik”, and came up with the following list (with their meanings):

·         Alrik: “Noble Leader”

·         Aldrik: Noble Friend”

 

It appears that the shared root is “Noble”. Maybe this means something about who Allik will be one day? However, these names added an extra consonant, so I kept looking and found the name “Alek” in Danish. Alek is short for Aleksander, which means “Defender of Men”. Is this where Allik gets his name from? Will he be a defender of Southern Scandrian peoples and a noble friend to our protagonists?

 

Allik’s name wasn’t enough for me. What about words that he says in his language? My favorite words he used were the names for Preservation and Ruin:

 

"There is Herr, and his sister Frue, who is also his wife. And she makes things stop, and he makes things go, but neither can—“

 

I first googled to see if these names were German words. “Herr” means “Lord” in German…this seemed like a good sign to me! Unfortunately, “Frue” is not a German word. But it is Danish. In Danish, it literally means “wife” or “Ma’am” and “Herr” literally means “Mister”. So we have Mister and Missus…just like how Allik describes them.

 

When Allik first realized Wax was an Allomancer he said a few words aloud in his own language that Marasi overheard:

 

She followed his gaze, which was focused on Waxillium, who landed beyond them…

“Fotenstall,” he whispered in awe.

“Allomancer,” Marasi said with a nod.

“Hanner konge?”

 

“Fottenstall” doesn’t really translate to much, even if “fotten” means “feet” in Norwegian. However “hanner konge” has a very interesting meaning in Danish: “Male King”. Allik notes that Wax seems very powerful, like the Sovereign, and thinks he needs to always use some type of title for him. The Sovereign described himself as a former King from Northern Scadrial. Thus, it doesn’t surprise me that Allik may be asking Marasi if Wax is a king.  

 

I didn’t look at very many other words other than these, because all of this already seemed like good evidence that the Southern Scadrian language is similar to Northern Germanic languages, specifically Danish. If people from Northern Scadrial speak with a French accent/sound, then it seems entirely plausible that the southerners speak some type of Germanic/Scandinavian language, given the clues.

 

What do you all think?

Edited April 14, 2016 by Titan Arum

[happyman]

Yep, I agree.  When I saw Herr and Frue, I immediately thought of Herr and Frau, which is German for Mister and Missus.  (That the the word Herr also means Lord is one of those delightful quirks of language, but in the context of a word which sounds like "Woman" or "Ma'am" or "Misses," it almost certainly means "Sir.")

Languages have a hard time translating some ideas, and words can be so context sensitive.

Edited April 14, 2016 by happyman

[Rasarr]

Good sleuthing, and I agree with your conclusions. I thought of German too (I learn German at school, so that wasn't a great logical leap to make), though I didn't look into Allik's name. Interesting!

 

For an added bonus, am I seeing things where there are none, or could NoScad and SoScad's relationship mirror that of real-life France and Germany? They were quite hostile for the longest while (can you say "Alsace-Lorraine"?) before being rather forced to become "friends" in face of an external threat (Cold War and USSR). SoScad and NoScad have already hit it off on a rather less-than-friendly note, after all, and we know external threat exists... and is red. 

Edited April 14, 2016 by Rasarr

[natc]

. . . Trell is communist. It makes so much sense!

[Erunion]

This makes sense. Take an upvote my friend!

[Titan Arum]

I decided to ask Peter about this little theory, and when he tweeted me back, all he said was "Good Question." Maybe this is his way of saying "I cannot confirm this right now, but you're on the right track" or it's simply his version of ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Rasarr]

I decided to ask Peter about this little theory, and when he tweeted me back, all he said was "Good Question." Maybe this is his way of saying "I cannot confirm this right now, but you're on the right track" or it's simply his version of ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

...certainly interesting.

[Jondesu]

I decided to ask Peter about this little theory, and when he tweeted me back, all he said was "Good Question." Maybe this is his way of saying "I cannot confirm this right now, but you're on the right track" or it's simply his version of ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

It's probably th equivalent of a RAFO except he doesn't know if we'll ever get to find out. :-P

jW

[mjk]

You're not the only one who's noticed this! I'm Norwegian myself, and wrote about in another thread a few months ago: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/52595-bands-spoilers-the-lost-metal/#entry396317

 

Oh, and just a correction to your original post (that I also wrote about in that earlier post). "Hanner konge?" wouldn't translate to "male king", but to "He is king?" or "He is a king?" depending on the intonation used when asking the question. 

 

But glad I'm not the only one who caught this linguistic tidbit! And love the fact that you tweeted Peter about it. 

[Titan Arum]

mjk, I never saw your original post about that! I just gave you an upvote for it in the thread you link to. For me this is even more evidence that the Southern Scadrian's in Allik's tribe speak some type of Scandinavian language.

 

Thank you for cross-verifying. Since I don't speak any Scandinavian languages, I was only guessing as I went a long trying to translate things. Good catch with ettmetal meaning "The One-Metal"! I really like that interpretation. 

 

I ended up tweeting Peter again to see if he could further verify what he meant (since I thought maybe he was sorta trolling me) and he replied:

I mean that's a good question for people to be asking. Whether Brandon would answer it, I don't know

[mjk]

My thoughts exactly, Titan.   When more people catch on to the same thing, it does strengthen my belief that our reasoning is sound, and I'd say that second tweet from Peter really drives it home that we might be on to something.   Man-oh-man, but I really do hope someone gets the chance to ask Brandon about SoScad linguistics...! 

[Narcoleptic Axolotl]

While we're (sort of) on the subject, does anyone know if I can learn Spook's dialect from book 1? I looked for a thread about this but didn't find one.

[EmeraldMind]

On 5/30/2018 at 10:15 AM, Narcoleptic Axolotl said:

While we're (sort of) on the subject, does anyone know if I can learn Spook's dialect from book 1? I looked for a thread about this but didn't find one.

I swear I just want to help with this question and not hijack the post. I studied up on eastern street slang because a friend of mine wanted to use it for a role play character.

First and foremost Eastern Street Slang is meant to be confusing. It is quite literally meant to be as ridiculous as possible while still being understandable. To that end changing the rules to meet your needs is acceptable, so long as there is context to understand your idea.

For more hard rules here are a few:

• Tense is usually set in the beginning of the sentence or statement. "Ising of", "Wasing of", "Doing of", is "I am", "I was", "I will be".
• Subject is usually contextually set, but can be set at the beginning along with tense. For example of "Being of cold" would become "I am cold"
  • Alternatively you could phrase that as "Ising of cold of being"
  • An example of setting tense at the beginning rather than the English style of setting tense throughout you might have "Wasing of cold of being at darkness"
  • That last statement translates to "I was cold at night". I switched night to darkness to help create more chaos, but contextually you should be able to guess.

That at least starts some of the rules and gives you something of an idea. If you want more in depth start a post and link me to it, and I'll expand on the rules.

[Bigmikey357]

Brandon consults with the people who do his audiobooks right? To give this theory even more credence, all the people from SoScad sound like they have a Scandinavian accent.

[+robardin]

On 6/17/2018 at 1:24 PM, Bigmikey357 said:

Brandon consults with the people who do his audiobooks right? To give this theory even more credence, all the people from SoScad sound like they have a Scandinavian accent.

Well, Allik's folk do, anyway. There are five nations/ethnic groups in the South, all mask-wearers: Allik named his own (the Malwish), the "Hunters" whose faces grow into their masks and who had been the first to reach (and die) at the temple of the Bands of Mourning, and the "Fallen" who wear plain masks until they are recognized as having done some great achievement. Two more are still unnamed/unknown to us readers. They do speak different languages, too.

So, what might "Malwish" mean in Danish or Norwegian?

 

Edited June 28, 2018 by robardin

[Wind_Breaker]

I personally also immediately had the impression that Allik's language is Nordic inspired when I read the book, even if I don't really speak any of these languages. And kudos to you for detailing the words we have!!

....If I may bring in a less serious aspect / the cultural perspective

when I read the description of Allik's outfit, I had this in my head.

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:München,_Tracht.jpg

I did not unfortunately not find a perfect image, because this traditional costume does actually exist with white socks and red vests with buttons.

https://de.depositphotos.com/213217454/stock-photo-germany-bavaria-upper-bavaria-man.html

So, to me, Allik's people will forever be Nordics with Bavarian clothing. The aforementioned "yah"/ja is also used in a lot of languages, as in German, in Estonian, Danish, Dutch, Icelandic, Slovakian.... So it's a cool nod to a lot of European languages, but doesn't necessarily lead further.

 

[Honorless]

There's a possibility that the Southern Scadrial's language ties back all the way to the Classical era. I mean, Germanic style names at least have survived in Northern Scadrial in the Final Empire, specifically in the Northern Dominance

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

How do you pick names?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

It really varies based on the book. I'm often picking a linguistic paradigm. Alethi - there are two separate paradigms because I like linguistics to be messy. Usually based on symmetry being holy, so they'd pick names one letter off from symmetrical to avoid hubris.  Also suffix - like Kaladin is Kalak (Herald) + din which is a suffix, all of them mean things, like the old Hebrew names have "born of" or "comes through". Stick that on and drop the last letter. Dalinar, Elhokar, all of those have suffixes - nar, kar.  In Mistborn, I didn't want linguistics to be your focus, for in that I picked a simpler naming paradigm - I lifted linguistics from the real world. Central Dominance is French. The Germanic area, we have Elend and Straff, and then we have Spanish on the other area. I just kind of took Earth cultures and appropriated them. That's an easier way to do it, because Mistborn is kind of an earth analogue. But Roshar is very different. Mistborn I didn't want you to think of the difference, which is why I gave everyone nicknames that are easy to say.

Words of Radiance Seattle signing (March 8, 2014)

Quote

Questioner

Are there differences in pronunciation between the different worlds in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Do you have any record of that?

Brandon Sanderson

So, it depends on the culture and things like that, what it's going to be like. You can kind of bet in Mistborn it's going to be French, if it's from the Central Dominance. So they'll say "Kelsi-ay" and "De-MOH" but where Elend's from is a lot more Germanic so "EE-lend" "STRAHFF" and stuff like that. The other worlds are all going to have their different things. In Roshar you are going to get some of the "YAS-nah kHo-LIN" it's going to be a little more Semitic in its language family.

Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015)

Quote

Questioner

*audio obscured*

Brandon Sanderson

So Elend's name came from the Germanic word for misery and Straff's name means punishment. The question is did I do this intentionally. I didn't do either one intentionally. I don't speak German, what I did was I went to Germanic morphemes, I didn't even know what they meant, and just got a feel for "Okay this is Germanic, this is Germanic" and then put those aside and said "Alright can I come up with a bunch of names that sound Germanic" once that mood is in my head. Because English has a lot of Germanic influences I guess I did it too well and I named a whole bunch of people things that are actual words in German. *laughter* But you know I'm actually fairly pleased with that, it means I was doing my job. But you know I didn't intentionally make them mean anything in German, at least this time I didn't accidentally pick a swear or something, which I’ve done before. *laughter*

Bands of Mourning release party (Jan. 25, 2016)

 

[Wind_Breaker]

4 hours ago, Honorless said:

There's a possibility that the Southern Scadrial's language ties back all the way to the Classical era. I mean, Germanic style names at least have survived in Northern Scadrial in the Final Empire, specifically in the Northern Dominance

 

Ohhh right! Mh. Right, with that in mind, the Southern Scandrials definitely speak some Germanic language family language, I think everyone agrees there.

And Allik seems to speak a mix of different languages which exist today in this language family OR different tribes stick to certain languages and had a certain influence on the lore and religion of the SoSc because

a) calling Harmony Frue and Herr is definitely high middle ages German (frouwe & hêr)

Jaggenmire though, wow... I don't recognize anything there. I tried to find some similar words, no luck so far. Anyway, this looks Nordic to me.

c) He is from a place called Wieslow which could be something German

Edited December 10, 2019 by Wind_Breaker
typo

[Honorless]

4 hours ago, Wind_Breaker said:

Ohhh right! Mh. Right, with that in mind, the Southern Scandrials definitely speak some Germanic language family language, I think everyone agrees there.

And Allik seems to speak a mix of different languages which exist today in this language family OR different tribes stick to certain languages and had a certain influence on the lore and religion of the SoSc because

a) calling Harmony Frue and Herr is definitely high middle ages German (frouwe & hêr)

Jaggenmire though, wow... I don't recognize anything there. I tried to find some similar words, no luck so far. Anyway, this looks Nordic to me.

Jaggenmire sounds close to 'Juggernaut' (a huge, powerful or overwhelming force) or 'Jagannath' (lord of the world), both fit.