The Making of the Cosmere: Relationship Among the Powers of Creation, Adonalsium and Investiture

[Confused]

Brandon’s use of the terms “Powers of Creation,” “Investiture” and “Adonalsium” has confused me. In this post, I explore the precise relationship among these three terms and the implications that flow from that relationship, including some issues of Realmatic theory.

 

SUMMARY

 

1. “In the beginning,” the Cosmere consisted solely of the Powers of Creation. No mind yet existed to direct the Powers of Creation into any creative acts.

 

2. Power needs a mind to direct it or it will develop sentience on its own. Eventually the Powers of Creation did develop their own mind, and that mind was Adonalsium. Adonalsium became the Powers of Creation.

 

3.. Adonalsium’s mind and Soul together were the Powers of Creation, and they pre-existed the three Realms. In a post below, runyan_ft mentions that “Adonalsium” is an anagram for “a mind, a soul.” Because Adonalsium had not yet created the three Realms, he may himself be the “God Beyond” the Realms. Even after the Cosmere’s creation, I believe Adonalsium’s mind and Soul remained outside the Realms rather than become a part of them, although that's unclear.

 

4. The Powers of Creation were not originally Investiture themselves. Adonalsium’s creations were Investiture: “Investiture is…the building blocks of the Cosmere.” IOW Adonalsium directed the Powers of Creation to create everything else, and that “everything else” consisted of Investiture or the matter or energy Adonalsium converted Investiture into.

 

5. The Shattering caused the Shards to become “pieces of the Power of Creation.” Unlike Adonalsium, the Shards inhabited all three Realms, as their mortal Vessels did before they became Shards. Thus, the Shattering invested the Shards' Souls with the Powers of Creation, turning the Powers of Creation into Spiritual Realm Investiture. Splinters are even smaller, "self-aware" “pieces of the power of creation,” also composed of Spiritual Realm Investiture.

 

ANALYSIS

 

What Are the “Powers of Creation”?

 

Brandon has given us few descriptions of the “Powers of Creation.” In 2008, Brandon said that the “Shards of Adonalsium [are] pieces of the power of creation itself.” Source (Q 18). In 2012, Zas asked Brandon whether “the power of creation [is] this thing of power that powers Allomancy and powers the Aons, or is the power of creation just what each Shard has?” Brandon responded: “I would say [the power] each Shard has is more the definition.” Source (Q 7). And 10 months ago, Chaos asked Brandon, “Is Adonalsium and the ‘power of creation’ synonymous?” Brandon’s answer: “In some people's usage.”

 

The earlier snippets confirm (to me) that Adonalsium WAS the “Power of Creation” despite Brandon’s later equivocation to Chaos. Shards cannot be “pieces of the power of creation itself” if Adonalsium wasn’t first that power in whole form.

 

The 2008 quote is also noteworthy because of what immediately followed it: “Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them.” Source (Q 18, emphasis added). IOW different Magic Systems permit mortals to “touch” the Powers - through Connections to the Shards - but that does not thereby convert these mortals into the Powers themselves, into Shards. Mortals can pluck the guitar strings, but they are not the guitar. In the current Cosmere, only the Shards are guitars.

 

Brandon has not defined what the specific Powers of Creation are, only that they do create. Some time ago, Kurkistan argued that Cosmere "magic" applies to the Connections between Souls and Essences, for example, changing the direction of gravity (the relationship between a Soul and an aspect of a Shardworld's Essence).

 

The closest Brandon comes to identifying these Cosmere-wide Connections are the Surges of Roshar, which correspond to the “fundamental forces” of our universe, as modified by magical influences:

 

Q: “The ten Surges on Roshar, I think you said are basically a different set of laws of physics.”

A: “Yeah.”

Q: “Are those laws of physics consistent throughout the Cosmere?”

A: “Um, y-y-yes, to an extent. You would consider, like - it's kind of weird because I based them on the idea of the fundamental forces, but this is kind of like a human construction. Like you could say that physics is pure and natural, but we're still putting things in boxes. And the scientists on Roshar would for instance consider being able to travel between the Cognitive and Physical Realms as a force, the thing that pulls people back and forth between that, as a fundamental force. I don't know if it would fit our definition of a fundamental force.” Source at [1:41:30].

 

I suggest that the Powers of Creation, therefore, are the magic that both creates Souls and Essences and changes the Connections between them.

 

What is “Investiture”?

 

Let’s start with a review of some relevant WoBs, which we’ve all seen before:

 

Q: “What is the Realmatic composition of investiture?”

A: “Investiture is intended to be the building blocks of the Cosmere so I would say for the most part it transcends the different realms. Probably more of the Spiritual if anything but more accurately it transcends them.” Source (Q 39).

 

Q: “What can you tell me about investiture?”

A: “That is the word for someone or something which has gained a portion of the magic of Adonalsium…” Source (Q 45).

 

Q: “Is there a Cosmere-specific term you use to describe, say, a Shard's power inside someone?”

A: “In my own terms, I refer to all of this as types of investiture. The degree, and effects, can be very different – but those people are invested.” Source (Q 13).

 

Brandon’s focus on “building blocks” and someone or something that has “gained” magic distinguishes Investiture from the Powers of Creation, at least pre-Shattering. Investiture seems to be the result of Adonalsium's creation process, enabling an Invested person or object to “touch” or “use” part of the “magic of Adonalsium” (the Powers of Creation).

 

Brandon has said that objects have a limit to how much Investiture they can hold (Q 16). People apparently also have such a limit. Here’s how Brandon described Vin’s use of the mists to fuel her Allomancy:

 

“So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak — though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she's doing just that — using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself [the powers of creation] — to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips ‘troughs’ through her body. It’s like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive.” Source (Q 18).

 

At the point of vaporization, Vin is no longer “Invested” by Preservation. She instead becomes the holder of the Preservation Shard. Again, that is the difference between a Shard and other magicians – an Invested person can access the Powers of Creation through his Connection to a Shard, but a Shard IS the Powers of Creation (or at least pieces of them) through the Shard's Spiritual Investiture.

 

What Is Adonalsium?

 

Let’s start with this well-known WoB: “Somebody needs to hold the magic. If no one holds the magic, the magic will start to gain sentience. Interesting and bizarre things happen then...” Source (Q 47).

 

The mindless Powers of Creation eventually did develop a mind to direct them. That mind, that directing creative entity, was Adonalsium. And he began to create the Cosmere by Investing in it. Because Brandon calls Shards pieces of the powers of creation, Adonalsium himself must have become the Powers of Creation.

 

REALMATIC IMPLICATIONS

 

Was Adonalsium Part of the Cosmere’s Realms?

 

By definition, the Powers of Creation predate the Cosmere’s Realms. Before Adonalsium used the Powers to create (that is, used himself to create), there was no Investiture, no “building blocks of the Cosmere.” That means “in the beginning” there were no Realms, since Investiture “transcends the Realms.”

 

That suggests that Adonalsium’s mind, when it did coalesce, was simply a property of the Powers of Creation. As runyan_ft points out in his post below, “Adonalsium” is an anagram for “a mind, a soul.”

 

Did the Powers migrate to the Spiritual Realm after its creation? It’s unclear. Though the Powers are not Investiture, they might have co-existed in the Spiritual Realm with Investiture. The M:SH scene where Preservation shoves Kelsier “upstairs” to see Time suggests the Powers of Creation were then located in the Spiritual Realm. But that scene occurs after the Shattering, when the Shards (who did exist in all three Realms – see below) had become "pieces of the Powers of Creation."

 

It’s equally unclear whether Adonalsium’s mind ever became part of the Cognitive Realm. The Cognitive Realm is the place of perceptions. But Adonalsium was God – he was perfect. His mind either continued outside the Realmatic structure altogether or it remained a property of the Powers of Creation that migrated to the Spiritual Realm. The Spiritual Realm is the place of perfection, of Platonic forms and ideals. The perfect mind should exist only in the Spiritual Realm.

 

If Adonalsium did become part of the Cosmere’s Realms, the best we can say is that Adonalsium co-inhabited the Spiritual Realm with his creations. It's possible Adonalsium's migration to the Spiritual Realm caused him to become Spiritual Realm Investiture at that time. Alternatively, the then-existing Spiritual Realm Investiture - Souls, Essences and Connections – might have remained separate from the Powers of Creation. We do know that, pre-Shattering, Adonalsium did allow some Souls to touch him (whether he then consisted of separately constituted Powers of Creation or as Spiritual Realm Investiture), since magic existed before the Shattering.

 

I believe, however, that Adonalsium remained outside the Realms. He WAS the “God Beyond” the Realms. To the extent Adonalsium Invested himself in the Realms, or created Splinters of himself in the Cosmere (like he did on Roshar), or left “ambient magic” on certain planets, he entered and left parts of himself in the Realms. But I believe his full creative force stood apart and “beyond.”

 

The Shards’ Exist in the Three Realms

 

Pre-Ascension, the Shards’ Vessels were all mortals composed of Investiture who existed in all three Realms. Each Vessel had its own body, Soul and mind, its own personality, and its own Connections. Sazed has said that the Powers of Creation did not have a personality before the Shards acquired the Powers (HoA Chapter 55 Epigraph). I’ve proposed that Shard Mandates (Intents) developed precisely for this reason – each Shard’s personal Connection to the aspect of Adonalsium that became their Mandate. While ascension vaporized the Vessels, their personalities and Connections remained.

 

I believe the Shattering invested the Shards with the Powers of Creation, causing the Powers to became part of the Shards’ Souls, Spiritual Realm Investiture. The Powers of Creation became the bulk of the Shards’ Spiritual DNA that comprises their Souls. (I say the Powers are only part of the Shards’ Souls, because the Vessels’ original Souls still seem to be lurking within them. The Vessels do drop out of the Shards when they die, as Leras, Ati and Vin all did.) Also, unlike Adonalsium’s mind, originally a property of the Powers of Creation, Shard minds continue to occupy the Cognitive Realm.

 

Adonalsium, IOW, was either “beyond” the Realms or was purely Spiritual, except to the extent he chose to manifest himself in some other Realm. The Shards exist in all three Realms, and the Powers of Creation are now part of the Shards' Souls in the Spiritual Realm. That is why Brandon says the Shards are “mostly” Spiritual, but transcend the Realms. It is the difference between a true “God” and the Greek gods subject to their mortal foibles that Brandon has described the Shards as being.

 

Splinters vs. Other Shardic Investiture

 

Splinters are carved-out bits of a Shard's Spiritual Realm Investiture (the Powers of Creation) that have developed their own self-awareness. Source (Q 15). Unlike the resot of a Shard's Spiritual Realm Investiture, Splinters can independently create magic. They have no need to Connect back to their Shard for Power. By themselves, Splinters can perform the same magic as their Shard, though on a smaller scale. Other forms of Investiture allow a Connection to their Shard, but it is the Shard’s Power that performs the magic.

 

This difference can be seen by comparing Divine Breath with mere Breaths. Divine Breaths are Splinters, but mere Breaths are not. A Returned, bonded with a Divine Breath, can perform magic on its own. Breaths OTOH Connect an Awakener to Endowment's Investiture. This Connection enables the Awakener to "touch" and "use" Endowment's magic.

 

IMO post-Shattering Splinters carry the Mandate (Intent) of the Splintered Shard, despite the following WoB from August 2011:

 

Josh: “Do Splinters have their own Intent, in addition to the Shards?”

Brandon Sanderson: “Splinters often have their own intent.”

 

“Intent” is a non-canonical term that Chaos invented in February 2011. While Brandon from time to time has used the term in the sense that Chaos uses it, it’s unclear whether six months after Chaos’ post Brandon would have interpreted the question as referring to “intent” in other than its normal meaning. To the contrary, the HoA Chapter 79 Epigraph (published in late 2008) uses the word “Mandate” to refer to the concept of Shard compulsion: “[Power without] a mind to oversee it [has] only a vague will of its own, tied in to the mandate of its abilities. [Emphasis added.]”

 

Evidence: we’ve never seen a Splinter act other than in accordance with its Shard’s mandate, whether it be Divine Breath, Radiantspren (which have “meshed” mandates of both Honor and Cultivation) or Aons. But we have seen Radiantspren with their own “intent” – that is, personality and motivation – Syl, Pattern and Ivory. I think that’s what Brandon’s statement means.

 

Adonalsium’s Splinters would not be subject to a Mandate. That’s why Brandon has said, “Spren could exist on a [world without a Shard], but they would be like the minor spren. You wouldn't find Syl, but you would find something like lifespren.” Source (Q 53).

 

FINAL THOUGHTS: OVERARCHING THEME OF THE COSMERE SAGA

 

In the WoR Epilogue (Kindle p. 1080, emphasis added), Wit/Hoid has the following conversation with Jasnah:

 

“You’re so convinced that there is no God.”

“The Almighty is – “

“Oh,” Wit said, “I don’t mean the Almighty…I just think you’ve been looking for God in the wrong places.”

“I suppose that you’re going to tell me where you think I should look.”

“You’ll find God in the same place you’re going to find salvation from this mess,” Wit said. “Inside the hearts of men.”

“Curiously,” Jasnah said, “I believe I can actually agree with that, though I suspect for different reasons than you imply.”

 

I believe this conversation expresses the overarching theme of the Cosmere Saga. In a post-Nietzsche universe where “God is dead,” we must rely on our “innate investiture,” our “spark of life” for salvation. God may be dead, but, to paraphrase the last sentence of William Faulkner’s The Sound and the Fury, “We endure.”

 

EDITS: I've made a number of edits to this post to reflect the comments made by other posters below. Some of these comments were purely editorial, such as the inputs of Argel, who suggested a more readable “Summary,” and runyan_ft, who pointed out a relevant Reddit post. Other changes result from the debates you'll find in those posts. I urge readers to look at those debates, because they contain more information than this edited post and highlight the collaborative nature of theory-building. As examples, there's some interesting discussion about the meaning of "living" investiture and much more about the nature of Splinters. My thanks to all who have participated . Regards!

Edited May 3, 2016 by Confused

[Argel he/him]

Wow! First, I'm really, really impressed! Second, I'm surprised I'm only the second upvote -- you may want to put a tl;dr summary at the top.

[Yata he/him]

First of all...Wonderful, really ... I left the forun for a couple of days and you create something like that.

Second, I have to re-read this topic a couple of time to get every details, something miss my understanding of things (and my English did't help that)

 

Often we saw the Cosmere quite differently but I have to say, I am impressed by this Explaination.

 

Your first 3 point was quite clear to me from a very long time but I didn't catch the "possible difference" between Power of Creation and Investiture.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Yata

[Runyan Firetree]

There was a reddit post earlier this week that pointed out that "a mind a soul" is an anagram of Adonalsium, which seems to fit quite nicely with parts of your theory.

Edited April 14, 2016 by runyan_ft

[Argel he/him]

...but I didn't catch the "possible difference" between Power of Creation and Investiture.

 

Yeah, same here, but having read the theory, it really resonates.

[Bugsy he/him]

This is a really impressive theory, upvoted

I do have a couple of concerns, however. Atium is believed to be an invested metal, but Ruin could have metabolized it into his power according to WoB. Also, when investiture is the "building block", I take it to mean the most basic and fundamental aspect. If something else composed investiture, it couldn't be the base. Since investiture is described as transcending the realms, it leads me to believe it must also be what created them, because there would be no purpose for the PoC to 'create' the realms if they were immediately going to create something else that was not defined by the realms

ETA:

HoA chapter 12 heading:

"power such as this --fundamental power by which the world itself was formed -- does not simply run out. It can be used, and therefore diffused, but it will always be renewed"

Edited April 15, 2016 by Bugsy6912

[Argel he/him]

Also, when investiture is the "building block", I take it to mean the most basic and fundamental aspect.

 

So when creating an artistic painting, what's the building block? The power of creation? Natural ability? A good understanding of the fundamentals? The oil paints? The brushes? The canvas? Some combination of them? All of them?

 

I'm not sure on the answer, though "building block" does suggest something more tangible. Though for my question, I might say the building blocks are the ability to create and the materials necessary to create.

 

Though with that said, you need the materials to actually be able to create something. The talent (ability to paint) affects the quality. Edit: So just the materials?

 

I'm not sure how much we should read into WoBs considering he mentioned he has not told us about how investiture really works yet. That could mean he has been using generalized terms to avoid revealing too much.

Edited April 17, 2016 by Argel

[natc]

The painting is made of matter, so it'd be investiture. Pretty simple. Natural ability, fundamentals? That's just technique to use the materials (the stuff after that) and arrange them into the form of a painting.

Take a sword. You can say what you want about the effort, technique, and resources in the form of equipment that went into forging the sword, but by the end of the day whether you had a blacksmith bust it out or had someone soulcast a wood carving, it's made of steel, or whatever material you used. The steel is made from atoms, which is made from subatomic particles down to the fuzzy base that we don't quite understand.

When you say something is a building block of all things it's pretty straightforward.

[Yata he/him]

Confused I believe to have found a counterproof to your Theory (and if I am right, it's a really waste because I like it) unless I have simply misunderstood some concept (therefore I made a fast explaination of how I read your post).

 

In your Cosmere's model the power of the creation and the Investiture are two distinct things and the power of Creation may be converted to Investiture but the Investiture can't be return to be Power of Creation.

Splinters are made by piece of Power of Creation while things like Breath are simply amount of Investiture.

 

The problem is just here:

We know of someone who manage to build a Splinter (and therefore Power of Creation) using only Investiture. I talk about Vasher with Nightblood.

Nightblood (a Splinter) is born through 1000 Breaths (a large amount of Investiture) but it's something impossible in your model.

 

Therefore I ask you.. I missed something or your Model need a revision

[Shardbearer he/him]

I see Investiture and The Powers of Creation as being the same thing. They seem like synonymous ways to refer to the same thing. Everything is made up up Investiture, and it also grants the ability to transform things or create various effects. Investiture is what Adonalsium used to create the Cosmere, and shards are made up of massive amounts of Investiture, so they are literally pieces of the powers of creation.

[Confused]

Yata, maybe I missed something, but I don’t think Nightblood is an actual Splinter. (I’m going to capitalize terms that I describe in my “Glossary of Important Cosmere Terms” post. Please bear with me…)

 

Brandon describes Nightblood as follows: “Nightblood is kind of his own strange thing. He's an attempt to use one magic to replicate something in another. He's closest to a spren, but kind of like a...robot spren, for lack of better words to use.” If Nightblood is not a spren, he’s not a Splinter. If he’s not a Splinter, he is not composed of the Powers of Creation. He’s simply a highly Invested object that has acquired sentience, making him a “robot.”

 

I don’t recall seeing Nightblood exercise any of the Powers of Creation. All he does is consume Investiture, destroying it in all three Realms. Brandon has identified other Cosmere entities that consume Investiture, including Leachers and larkins. That doesn’t make such entities Splinters.

 

I think you correctly summarized my model. FWIW, I’m reasonably confident that my distinction between the Powers of Creation and Investiture is valid. I’m less confident that the Powers of Creation are a declining resource, although that fits the current model. Certainly not something I would bet on…

 

Regards!

[Yata he/him]

Yeah is possible that Nightblood is just (without a better word) "an amount of Investiture who emulate a Splinter" (mmm in the end robot Spren works better I think XD).

I rememeber a WoB where an user tried to explain his PoV about how Awakening works to Brandon and MS has quite impressed of what the user figure.

It's was like "When you Awaken something, you copy your own Cognitive Aspect in to an object that tried to performe his duty" there was also a part who compare the Awekening to the Shard's creation but unless I find it again I don't want to say something wrong.

 

In the end, the Awakening seems to be the best candidate to give mind (a real one) to Investiture.

 

EDIT: It just came to my mind, but it's possible that the conversion PoC->Investiture and Investiture->PoC are both possible.
But for the Shard is aganist their Intent (mandate) to convert Investiture to PoC.

 

They seems to be very "setted" to spread their own essense and infuse the Cosmere (like a second nature) it's like a "hidden task".

Maybe a mortal may do this (with high difficult to figure how) because he is not bound to the same "hidden task" as the Shard's Vessel

Edited April 21, 2016 by Yata

[Confused]

Yata pointed me to a statement Brandon made at JordanCon about how spren are pieces of a Shard’s Investiture. He asked me whether I thought that statement undermines my recent theory on The Making of the Cosmere. Here’s the quote in relevant part, at [14:53]:

 

The general fundamental rules that create spren are Cosmere-wide. Spren are pieces of Investiture, usually pieces of Investiture that come straight from one of the Shards of Adonalsium, split off in some way, that because of human or other sapient creatures thinking about it or interacting with the power, the power starts to take on a life of its own. The power develops personality and comes alive, so to speak. And this can happen…in any place where there is Investiture. So it could happen on any planet in the Cosmere with significant amounts of free Investiture. The places you’ve seen this happen most commonly are Sel and…Roshar. You haven’t seen it on Scadrial, but you’ve seen little kind of hints of it on Nalthis, but not quite. But it’s possible for it to happen anywhere.

 

My theory distinguishes between Investiture and the Powers of Creation. I cite WoB that the Shards are “pieces of the power of creation.” From this I infer that Splinters must be even smaller pieces of the Powers of Creation that develop their own consciousness. I compare Divine Breath – a Splinter of Endowment – with mere Breaths. Divine Breaths are bits of the Powers of Creation, but mere Breaths are Endowment’s Investiture that allows Awakeners to “touch” and “use” the Powers of Creation that comprise Endowment.

 

Since we know spren – certainly Radiantspren – are Splinters, how do I square Brandon’s latest pronouncement with his earlier ones that the Shards (and IMO Splinters) are made from the Powers of Creation? The short answer is that spren are not just Splinters; they are MORE than Splinters because they include a Shard’s Cognitive Realm Investiture. They have “a life of [their] own.”

 

Aons and Divine Breaths don’t have “personality and come alive.” It is the seons encasing the Aons that have personality and the Returned bonded to the Divine Breath that have personality (the “hints of [spren] on Nalthis”), not the Splinters themselves. The Splinters are bits of the Powers of Creation, but by themselves don’t “come alive” because they are not made from Investiture.

 

Spren and seons DO “develop personality and come alive” on Roshar and Sel, the two planets Brandon mentions. Brandon states that’s “because of human or other sapient creatures thinking about it or interacting with the power [emphasis added].” IOW spren and seons form in the Cognitive Realm – they are made in whole or part from a Shard’s Cognitive Realm Investiture.

 

While spren and seons both bond with humans (and maybe others), they are also different from one another. Seons are made exclusively from Cognitive Realm Investiture. They bond with people on Sel and, like all Investiture, give the bonded person access to the Powers of Creation through their encased Splinter. Seons themselves are not formed from the Powers of Creation. (See The Making of the Cosmere theory where I explain this distinction.)

 

Radiantspren, at least, ARE Splinters: small bits of the Powers of Creation. But they also include Cognitive Realm Investiture because they reflect human thoughts and interactions. Those thoughts and interactions are what give life to spren, as Jasnah tells us. That’s also why Brandon says Knights Radiant Orders consist not only of two Surges, but also a “concept or an ideal.” Source (Q3). Radiantspren are a combination of Surges and ideas – of the Powers of Creation and Cognitive Investiture.

 

The distinction between Splinters and spren is like the difference between Adonalsium and the Shards. Sazed says that Shards have “thoughts and personalities,” but implies that Adonalsium didn’t. IOW power needs a mind to wield it or the power will develop consciousness on its own, but power does NOT need “thoughts and personalities.” Splinters need only a consciousness to direct their power, but spren (and seons) in addition “come alive.”

Edited April 28, 2016 by Confused

[Blightsong he/him]

Wait, are you theorizing that investiture is different from The Powers of Creation?

[Yata he/him]

Wait, are you theorizing that investiture is different from The Powers of Creation?

yeah, it's quite fashinating like theory. He linked it in the post or you may find it here

 

Anyway, I have still some trouble with this new Interpretation, I probably need more time to think about it :S

[WeiryWriter he/him]

This really did not need to be a separate thread.

[Blightsong he/him]

This theory is interesting, but I believe it is false. My main arguement is that Investiture acts the exact same as this 'Power of Creation'.

In your Analysis, you point out that Brandon has said that different magics are ways that mortals can harness the powers of creation. You then go on to say that when Vin uses the mists to fuel her Allomancy that she is then fueling herself with the powers of creation themselves. What is the difference between normally burning metals and using the mists? With the latter you are cutting out the middle man. Instead of using metal to key into investiture, you are simply getting investiture itself. How do these examples prove your point? They don't. We know FOR A FACT that investiture powers magic. Brandon has said this on numerous occasions. This in and of itself proves that Brandon simply uses the original investiture of the universe and Powers of Creation as synonyms, because the original investiture of the uninverse was as the power that created it. Brandon himself explained to me that even small amounts of investiture

In another portion, you explain how Adonalsium gained sentience. If Adonalsium gained sentience because he was composed of the powers of creation, then how can you explain that large amounts of investiture do the same? The best example of a consciousness that we know for a fact is made completely out of investiture is Nightblood. I propose that all investiture, no matter the amount does this. This is what spren, Seons, and Skaize all are. I would also like to point out that Cognitive Shadows are made purely out of investiture, and are still sentient. They can even bond things like the above examples can.

I also don't get your explaination for how Adonalsium must have created the he transcends the three realms. First off, you refer to Adonalsium being investiture by using that word in your proof, and thus contradict yourself. Second, just because something exists outside of something else doesn't prove that the former predates the latter. You could be right, but there is no proof. I suspect that Adonalsium simply began creating in the three realms, and that both the three realms and Adonalsium are Cosmereversal constants.

Again, in regaurds to Slinters being different from investiture, I point to my example of Nightblood.

For your point about Shards eventually not existing, Brandon has said that once investiture is used by magic users, the power is recycled back into a shard. I'm pretty sure (not positive, but highly likely) that Brandon has said the same about the spark of life, the investiture that composes a person's soul. This also further disproves the notion that the Powers of Creation are seperate.

Overall, your theory was well put together and had good research, but I think that it is too contradictory to facts that we have.

[Confused]

Thank you for your response, Blightsong. I’ll address your issues in the order you raise them.

 

1. Investiture Does NOT “act the exact same as this 'Power of Creation’’’

 

We do NOT “know FOR A FACT that investiture powers magic.” Brandon has NOT “said this on numerous occasions.” To the contrary, Investiture gives a Magic User the ability to ACCESS the magic (the Powers of Creation that comprise the Shards - Source (Q 18)), and Brandon HAS said THAT.

 

That’s precisely Brandon’s point about Vin’s use of the “essence of Preservation” in the WoB I cite in the OP and which you now question. Source (Q 18). I’ll quote the relevant portion again here (emphasis added):

 

So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak — though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she's doing just that — using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself — to fuel Allomancy.

 

“Burning metals” allows Vin to “tap into the powers of creation.” IOW she’s Connected to Preservation through the lerasium she inherited, which permits her to access the Powers of Creation. The mists OTOH ARE Preservation, and Vin IS using his “body” – the Powers of Creation themselves, based on the WoBs I cite in the OP – to fuel Allomancy. Investiture comprises the bridge – Vin’s Connection – to Preservation, but as you say we can dispense with the Investiture bridge altogether when she uses the Powers of Creation directly by burning the mists.

 

Look at your conversation with Brandon on this subject at the Madison OdysseyCon. I’m going to quote it at length for a full picture of the conversation in context (textual emphasis added):

 

Other guy: Is a Mistborn invested?

 

Brandon: The Mistborn, how their burning the metal, you're right. They are not specifically invested when they are not burning. When the investiture becomes active, then yes. Before, no, you're right on that.

 

SPOILERS FOR SH OR BOM

 

Me: So Kelsier, he stayed around longer, not because he was invested, but because he had the ability to become invested?

 

END OF SPOILERS

 

Brandon: Over time using the magic will invest you, on Scadrial. Most of the power is not coming from, on Roshar the power isn't coming from the person either. [Your comment: He cut himself off, so I assume this is how it works on Scadrial even though he didn't finish his thought.] So I'm going to have to back up on that one and say, yes, the mistborn are as invested as a Knight Radiant, because in both cases the majority of the power is coming from somewhere else, but there is the spirit web. Investing [is] the wrong term, but you have all these connections in the spiritual realm, so yanking you away from them, or rewriting them (like soulcasting or forgery) is harder.

 

My observations about this conversation:

 

a. Everything before Brandon says “I’m going to have to back up on that one” is irrelevant. He clearly changed his mind and reversed positions about what he was saying. Your assumption about “how it works on Scadrial” is misplaced, since Brandon immediately thereafter says that “the mistborn are as invested as a Knight Radiant, because in both cases the majority of the power is coming from somewhere else.” In the case of Mistborn, the “somewhere else” is Preservation.

 

b. When Brandon says “Investing [is] the wrong term, but you have all these connections in the spiritual realm,” he’s referring to the mechanism by which the Powers of Creation flow to the Mistborn and the Knight Radiant. Lerasium – “concentrated Preservation” – “gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer).” Source (Q 18). (You really should read this long WoB I keep citing – it provides lots of insight.) Lerasium changes a Mistborn’s SpiritWeb, as Brandon says in your conversation, giving the Mistborn the means to access – Connect to – “the mists and the powers of creation.”

 

IOW ingesting lerasium DOES “invest” a person and give the Mistborn a Connection (made of Investiture) to Preservation (“the mists and the powers of creation”). “Burning metals” is how the Mistborn USES that Investiture Connection to access (“tap into”) the Powers of Creation. Burning the mists themselves dispenses with the Connection and enables a Mistborn to “fuel Allomancy” directly with the Powers of Creation. That’s why Vin’s Allomantic abilities are so much stronger when she does burn the mists directly. This highlights the difference between Investiture and the Powers of Creation.

 

2. “[T]he original investiture of the universe”

 

You describe this phrase as a “synonym” for the Powers of Creation. Brandon does not. He defines Investiture as “the word for someone or something which has gained a portion of the magic of Adonalsium…” Source (Q 45, emphasis added).

 

Something can’t be “original” if it must be “gained” from something else. Brandon says the thing “gained” is “a portion of the magic of Adonalsium.” That clearly means the “magic of Adonalsium” predates Investiture and is something different from Investiture. IOW there was no “original Investiture of the universe.”

 

3. The Sentience of Nightblood, Spren, Etc. and Cognitive Shadows

 

Nightblood is a special case. I discuss Nightblood in this post above. Brandon describes him as “his own strange thing…a robot spren.” IMO this is because he is an Awakened object. I’m not sure that another Magic System could have produced Nightblood.

 

We do have spren, seons and skaze that are sentient, as you say. I discuss them in this post above. These entities are all a combination of Splinters with Cognitive Realm Investiture: “ecause of human or other sapient creatures thinking about it or interacting with the power, the power starts to take on a life of its own.”

 

“Power” in Brandon’s quote refers to the Splinter (a bit of the Powers of Creation) that comprises the Radiantspren or is at the core of seons (an Aon) or skaze (IMO a Dominion Splinter). These entities all “come alive” through the Splinter’s interaction with the thoughts of “sapient creatures” in the Cognitive Realm, encasing them in Cognitive Realm Investiture. That Investiture enables them to bond with the minds of sapient creatures (another Connection “bridge” between a Magic User and the Powers of Creation).

 

I agree that “Cognitive Shadows are made purely out of investiture, and are still sentient.” They were always sentient, since they are the conscious remnants of people who for whatever reason refuse to pass “beyond.” These people’s Connections to the Physical Realm have been severed by their deaths, but their minds and souls remain. And they do require Investiture to stay in the Cognitive Realm, as we saw with Kelsier. Since Cognitive Shadows were always sentient and continue so, I don’t think they prove anything. Otherwise, you’d have to question how humans have sentience in the first place…

 

4. Adonalsium (the Mind Directing the Powers of Creation) Created the Cosmere

 

The Cosmere didn’t self-create. Brandon has made clear that something existed before Investiture, as I describe in numbered paragraph 2 above. He states that that “something” was the “magic of Adonalsium,” the Powers of Creation. Given the WoB I cite in that paragraph, I can’t see any other conclusion. (Then again, I have no idea what you mean by “Cosmereversal constants.”)

 

Because Investiture is the “fundamental building blocks of the Cosmere,” and Adonalsium predates Investiture, then he must predate the Cosmere. My conclusion that he continued to stand “outside” the Cosmere’s Realmatic structure is speculative, as I freely admit in the OP. I even speculate that the opposite could be true, but conclude as I do for the reasons I state in the OP. I’m not wedded to the conclusion Adonalsium remained outside the Realms. I am wedded to the conclusion that he predates and created the Realms.

 

5. Conservation of the Powers of Creation

 

Brandon has repeatedly discussed how Investiture, matter and energy are interchangeable and convertible into one another and that system-wide they obey the Cosmere’s version of the Laws of Thermodynamics. I’m not questioning that.

 

Rather, the OP speculates whether those laws apply to the Powers of Creation that created Investiture. Just because Investiture can be “recycled” doesn’t mean it can recycle back into the Powers of Creation. System-wide, the Laws of Thermodynamics can be observed without such recycling – there would simply be that much more Investiture, matter and energy to account for the diminished Powers of Creation. The question raised in the OP is how the creation can again become its creator.

 

I conjecture that it can’t. That conjecture obviously can be wrong, but it does have a certain thematic appeal, as the last section of the OP suggests. I did overstate my conjecture as conclusion; I didn’t mean to endorse this idea as strongly as it came across. But it is an interesting thought, and I offer it for consideration.

 

* * * * * * * * *

 

I’ve tried to answer your questions. I think my model works reasonably well given our still limited understanding of things. Brandon has said he hasn’t told us much about what Investiture actually is. Do take a look at this WoB (Q 18) I referred you to – if you ruminate on it, you’ll find it rewarding.

 

Regards!

[Blightsong he/him]

I will also counter argue in the order in which you responded:

1. First off, that quote you refer too, to me it is obvious that Brandon miss heard the person as if he asked about the term 'invested'. His sentances don't really work or go along with what he has said about investiture up to this point if he didn't mishear. Talking about shardblades and using the term invested doesn't really fit the flow of conversation. I can't prove this however, so don't consider it part of my arguement, it just seems weird to me.

I think you are misinformed, because we do know that investiture powers magic. I'll just dump quotes bellow.

INTERVIEW: Mar 4th, 2014

WoR Signing Report - Talenelat (Verbatim)

QUESTION

What you can tell me about Investiture?

BRANDON SANDERSON

That is the word for someone or something which has gained a portion of the magic of Adonalsium, so the original whatever-it-is. Like a Shardblade is an Invested object, and people if they draw in the Stormlight, they're drawing in the magic-they're Invested.

This quote is important for two reasons. It refers to Spren as Invested objects, proving that they are investiture, not 'Pieces of the Power of Creation'. Second, it tells us that Stormlight is the magic they are drawing in. This is important for this next quote.

INTERVIEW: Oct 5th, 2013

Steelheart Signing Report - Argent (Paraphrased)

QUESTION

What is Stormlight?

BRANDON SANDERSON

I don't want to answer this, but I'll just say "Investiture."

This proves it. There are a few other pretty much identical WoB in the database. Couple this with the fact that you can fuel all magic systems with each others form of investiture (although it is difficult) and it pretty much disproves your theory.

As for the quote from when I spoke with Brandon, I think you took the bolder section a bit out of context there. He was backing up on the statement that Mistborn were not invested. He saying is that they are invested due to using the magic system (Savantism), but that that investiture isn't what really makes them stay any longer (although it does slightly). It is the different connectins in the spiritual realm that a person gains from being a Mistborn that allows them to stay longer. In that quote he even says that calls the usage of magic 'active investiture'. If you would argue that he is referring to the investiture that allows the harnessing of the Powers of Creation, then I would counter that this is another example of those two things acting the exact same. Using the Powers of Creation makes you stay longer, but so would Savantism, which is being more heavily invested. In the same breath as the above quote he even refers to actively burning metals being similarly disrupting to investiture as wearing shardplate (an invested object).

2. This quote is something I don't have a counter for. I just want to point of that in light of my above proof Brandon is contradicting himself by saying that the powers of Adonalsium are not investiture, because he refers to Spren as a piece of the Adonalsium, but we know they are investiture. Also, if you want to argue that spren are only investiture when in Shardblade form, then how would they change back? You speak of the powers not being able to convert back from investiture but this is a clear example of that happening if you are correct.

3. I think I've already accidentally covered this .

4. Universal constants are natural forces of nature, like gravity and the laws of thermodynamics. I was relating that to the Cosmere. As for your arguements, I covered that in section 2.

5. I agree that it has thematic appeal, but with what we know this notion would be false.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Blightsong

[Argel he/him]

QUESTION

What is Stormlight?

BRANDON SANDERSON

I don't want to answer this, but I'll just say "Investiture."

 

Brandon is giving an incomplete answer here, so I do not see how we can take it as absolute proof. Take any subject we knew little about years ago and see how his answers have evolved as he has revealed more. He's also probably not aware of this in-depth theory, so it's hard to say how exact he is being in his wording -- i.e. maybe we're further along than he realizes.

[Vissy]

About the Shards' Intent:

 

What if the Intent of the Shards actually depended on the personalities of the 16 original Vessels?

[Argel he/him]

We already know the intent of the shard changes the vessel. That's why Rayse doesn't want to pick up any other shards.

[Vissy]

That's true. I guess I had a different sort of change in mind, a change that strengthens their major personality traits and weakens others. Because if 16 Shards each have their separate, unique Intents that were granted to them automatically after Adonalsium shattered, we need to ask the question "why these specific Intents?"

[Blightsong he/him]

Brandon is giving an incomplete answer here, so I do not see how we can take it as absolute proof. Take any subject we knew little about years ago and see how his answers have evolved as he has revealed more. He's also probably not aware of this in-depth theory, so it's hard to say how exact he is being in his wording -- i.e. maybe we're further along than he realizes.

I'll just dump more WoBs for you then.

INTERVIEW: Sep 22nd, 2012

Orem Signing Report - Zas (Verbatim)

ZAS

So you talk about the residue a Shard leaves on a sliver. So what does that residue have? Like what does it do? If anything?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Well, one thing it can do is that people capable of noticing Investiture, would know there is a trace of investiture from that event.

TAGS

shards, slivers, investiture,

This implies that holding a shard leaves someone invested

INTERVIEW: Sep, 2012

Cosmere Q&A - 17th Shard (Verbatim)

CHAOS

Is there a Cosmere-specific term you use to describe, say, a Shard's power inside someone? For example, people on Scadrial had little bits of Preservation in them that made them sentient (and, with enough Preservation, Allomancy). This obviously doesn't make these people Slivers or Splinters, so I was just wondering if you had a word for it.

BRANDON SANDERSON

In my own terms, I refer to all of this as types of investiture. The degree, and effects, can be very different - but those people are invested. I term this Innate Investiture, and it is similar to what happens with people on Nalthis. That is also innate.

TAGS

shards, investiture, breath, warbreaker, mistborn, allomancy, preservation, cosmere, innate investiture,

Here he indirectly calls investiture the powers of a shard.

INTERVIEW: Nov 6th, 2012

Weller Book Works Signing - Josh & Mi'ch (Verbatim)

QUESTION

Can Odium pick up pieces of a Shard without changing the nature of his Shard?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Any investiture, over time, will slowly change one’s personality, no matter how small that investiture.

TAGS

investiture, odium, shards

Here he calls shards investiture.

INTERVIEW: Sep 4th, 2014

Salt Lake City Comic-Con 2014 (Verbatim)

QUESTION

And all the different powers kind of run off the same type of power? Like Breath is the same as Stormlight?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yeees, they have their own different sort of layers to them. It depends on the Shard that is there and things like that but yes there are little differences but it is more like the differences between alternating current and direct current, they're both electricity. So if you know how to use them.

QUESTION

'Cause Szeth's not going to be getting any new Breaths on Roshar so I was thinking about that.

TAGS

investiture,

Here he says that all magics basicly run off of the same power, and Breath, we know for a fact, is investiture so that is proof that all magic systems run off of investiture, even if you disregard my earlier quote where he straight up calls Stormlight investiture.

INTERVIEW: Mar 21st, 2014

WOR Signing Table Q&A (Verbatim)

QUESTION

I know that there's three sorts of forms that magic presents itself in, the liquid and the solid and air. What would Breath be?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Breath is definitely like Mist, it is in the form of the air.

QUESTION

And is Stormlight the same?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Stormlight is the same. Good questions!

QUESTION

Would Vasher be able to use Stormlight in the same way that he can get Breath?

BRANDON SANDERSON

That would not be immediately easy, but Stormlight could feed Nightblood.

QUESTION

Which is why Szeth can wield Nightblood?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Eh, you'll have to see if … but yes. That could theoretically happen. You can use most of the magics on most of the planets to fuel the other magics, if you know how to do it, it is not easy.

TAGS

physical state, investiture, nightblood, stormlight

More proof that the mists are made out of investiture.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Blightsong

[Vissy]

I wonder what happens to non-Shardworld humans, then. Do they have any Investiture in them? If so, do they just go straight to the Beyond (instead of taking a short stop at the Cognitive Realm, which is assumedly due to Investiture)?