Roshar vs Scadrial

[Rich2244]

2 hours ago, KalaDellexe said:

Sorry, but if I remember right, that's just wrong. Allomancers may be more common than Surgebinders, but they weren't common enough (or risked enough) to justify skipping out on effective gear. That's the entire reason why the Hazekiller class of soldier exists. 

Most fighting in the Final Empire at the time of the beginning of TFE is from failing rebellions. Who's rebelling? Skaa. Who doesn't have as many Allomancers? Skaa. They don't have the Allomancers to pose a threat to the Final Empire, so the Final Empire doesn't concern itself with building its army around countering Allomancers. From descriptions of soldiers, we hear that they wear metal helmets, metal breastplates, metal shields, and wield metal weapons. Hazekillers exist SPECIFICALLY to replace regular soldiers when fighting Allomancers. We even have quotes from various Allomancers, including Kelsier's teacher, that becoming proficient in Allomancy will allow you to kill men with their own weapons, and crush them in their own armor. 

So no, they're equipment is not "less suitable to deal with traditional weapons," because their equipment IS traditional armor and weaponry. Hazekillers aren't as good, yes, but they are a miniscule part of the Scadrien armed forces. 

I sort of agree and sort of disagree, many of the soldiers we see not just the hazekillers use non metal weapons. The duelling canes in particular seem to be fairly popular. I'm not saying that they don't have metal, they obviously do, just that their most highly trained elite soldiers are the ones who train to fight allomancers, so the quality of their normal troops will be poor in comparison with Rosharan troops who have elite units mixed in. Another thing I was sort of thinking when writing that post though I didn't include it is that scadrians don't really have wars, just minor rebellions so there soldiers are more like militia than professional soldiers.

[The One Who Connects]

Given that the timeline is relative to the books for both worlds, this isn't entirely relevant, but Brandon has said that "at their height, some orders had members in the low thousands." Obviously this doesn't mean just Knights, it could very well include squires, but the point was that Surgebinding wasn't as rare as we seem to think it was. 

As for relevant discussion, dueling canes seemed to be a thing for Hazekillers and Noblemen only, not regular soldiers.

And here's speculation and a question. I assumed that Hazekillers were a relatively recent profession, given that Venture only had a dozen or two, IIRC. Does this seem like a sound assumption, and does anyone think that whatever training Hazekillers had against Allomancy would help them at all against Surgebinding?

[Luka]

Hey I just had an idea! What if Szeth with Nightblood tried to kill TLR. I'm not saying that he would be able too, but after the Lord Ruler kills him, wouldn't he be tempted to pick up Nightblood? Then he would end up killing all the Inquistors around him, and end up being consumed. That would be enough to tip the scales into Roshar's favour I think.

[The One Who Connects]

1 minute ago, Luka said:

Hey I just had an idea! What if Szeth with Nightblood tried to kill TLR. I'm not saying that he would be able too, but after the Lord Ruler kills him, wouldn't he be tempted to pick up Nightblood? Then he would end up killing all the Inquistors around him, and end up being consumed. That would be enough to tip the scales into Roshar's favour I think.

I don't actually know if TLR would be tempted by it. He believed that he was saving the world from destruction(he really was, but what's important is what he thinks.) He might be able to resist since he sees himself as doing the right thing. 

Either way, people in this thread have come to an agreement that the Lord Ruler doesn't step on the battlefield on account of being tremendously OP. It's a clever idea though, fits well for trying to throw the enemy into chaos.

[Luka]

Yeah, you may be right about TLR. He might also just be strong willed enough to resist, like Denth. It would still work with Inquistors though.

[Blackhoof]

It doesn't seem to me that the Alethi use spears that are as long as a typical phalanxes- Kaladin swings his around easily, in a standard battle form, implying heavily that most basic infantry use a spear that is only 5-6ft long. Why would any soldier trained to fight in a phalanx be given training like Kaladin was? In a phalanx you just point and stab, and obviously Kaladin's fellow levies weren't trained to take up a phalanx formation. Heck, it seemed like individual squad leaders were given the sole choice of how to organise their soldiers.

Having watched the TV show Vikings recently, it struck me that perhaps it is better to think of the Alethi combat style as a viking shieldwall- a line of warriors locking shields and presenting a united front to their enemy and jabbing in between with their short spears, much more fluid and manoeuvrable than a full phalanx armed with pikes. They only open to attack or to pull individual enemies to be killed by the back ranks.Their fighting style is a mix of group tactics- working together to form the shieldwall, covering each other, and to assassinate enemy combatants- with individual prowess, when the wall becomes more fluid and individual enemies break through and need to be slain. 

In Vikings as well, you have instances of warriors climbing over or breaching the shieldwalls- and it also struck me that if an enemy could simply leap over the wall, the vikings would be in trouble.

It seems to me that for good Alethi soldiers (not fighting Parshendi) it seems accurate to think of their fighting style as "vikings with spears". The books obviously mention that their tactics changed when they fought Parshendi, but it didn't elaborate too much as to how, and the only human vs human fight we see is a pathetic match between armies of levies that don't fight in formation and fight as individuals or squads. The latter fits with my assessment I feel- phalanx militaries train and train and train their soldiers in this one formation, to the exclusion of all else. But a military that doesn't build their armies around a specific formation like that? You have the prospect of half your army running around like headless chickens because all they got were a few basic spear combat lessons. (not phalanx formation lessons, spear fighting lessons. As I said, spear fighting is irrelevant in a phalanx).

So that is my opinion- the Alethi fighting style is not really reminiscent of a phalanx except superficially.

[Dellexe]

Working on a little project now, a line-by-line reading and dissection of the Way of Kings to determine the nature of the Alethi military. Just barely into chapter 1 so far, but that's mainly because of how much military stuff is in that chapter. Here's the link to book-quotes and my comments.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Y4CYeS0peFsAwWQ5aDGqiuwE8uw0ObY7UOPZgASJLDw/edit?usp=sharing 

TL;DR up to this point. Alethi armies clearly begin battles in clear, crisp, neat formations. They form orderly lines with shortspears in front, longspears and javelins behind shortspears, archers at the sides, and then a negligible amount of cavalry. Darkeye spearmen wear a leather vest, simple steel cap, steel breastplate, and a leather skirt. Shortspear-infantry, in addition to their shortspear, also carry shields on their backs. Alethi warfare is very ritualized with regards to equipment, so darkeyes are not allowed swords, and Kaladin wearing pants is not supposed to be allowed. Organizationally, Alethi armies are made up of squads, with Kaladin's squad of 30 being our only defined example. This poses an organizational issue during battle as that means that with a 2,000 man army, or the bare minimum interpretation of the size of one of the armies, there would be nearly 70 squads all acting independently. This disorderliness also shows with Cenn and Kaladin's remarks about camp politics. Rather than squads being orderly, steady, and static, squads and men can be swapped around and traded at the whims of squad leaders. This is concerning, as even Roman Manipular Legions only had around 40 groups of 120 that were disciplined, orderly, and had specific roles. This apparent lack of order, combined with the independence of such small squads, is really making me question the effectiveness of the Alethi army in pitched battle. 

[Blackhoof]

@KalaDellexe

It could simply be that in the context of smaller battles between rival Alethi lords, the rules around squad composition are not really enforced by the commanders. In a serious war, with higher quality soldiers and commanders, there would certainly be a stricter adherence to organisation. Likely the sub-commanders who should direct groups of squads are also just incompetent, and so the squadleaders largely have free rein to act as they wish. All he decent commanders are at the Shattered Plains.

[8bitBob]

I've finished my WoK and WoR reread, and I've come across some interesting info.

On 4/3/2017 at 11:06 AM, The One Who Connects said:

I don't know if Szeth hit the plate beforehand, but he shatters a breastplate of a Shardbearer in interlude I-9. Granted that was with a large block of the wall and some absurd number of lashings, but it might be our only example of something that isn't an Invested Weapon taking under 3 hits. (Szeth's Honorblade seems to take two, according to some people on here. I'd have to reread)

This scene is actually interesting. Long story short, he actually one hit kills both Shardbearers in this scene. One with a stone and one with his Honorblade, both of which utilized repeated Lashings and falling a fair distance. Both Shardbearers had been lightly knocked around by things like falling spearmen, but it was played off as a distraction, and at no point were they described as having their armor cracked or leaking Stormlight.

For the stone, the details are vague. He lashes a stone of indeterminate size exactly twenty times, it falls an indeterminate distances and shatters the breastplate, killing the user. From reading the scene, the stone appears to at least be smaller than a man's torso, as it was not described as crushing him or damaging anything other than the breastplate. The distance it falls is harder to determine, but the battle takes place in a banquet hall of some sort, so it could only fall so far.

Based on this, I still think it pretty likely that a Coinshot could generate that level of force if they had some more distance to work with. Worst case scenario, you get some Mistings to work as a team, instantly doubling the force you can output after they get some practice aiming as a team. I don't think this would be necessary though.

Quote

I just added in the Soulcasters bit to get it out of the way, because someone mentioned in the early pages about how they'll "never go short on metal once they get a Soulcaster" or something to that effect. They aren't that easy to use, people.

So it seems we may be wrong about how difficult it is to Soulcast:

Spoiler

“Have you ever heard anyone talk about using one?” She cringed at the bold statement. Would it make him suspicious?

He just nodded idly. “There’s a secret to it, Shallan.”

“Really?” she asked, heart in her throat.

He looked up at her, seeming conspiratorial. “It’s really not that difficult.”

“It…What?”

“It’s true,” he said. “I’ve heard it from several ardents. There’s so much shadow and ritual surrounding Soulcasters. They’re kept mysterious, aren’t used where people can see. But the truth is, there’s not much to them. You just put one on, press your hand against something, and tap a gemstone with your finger. It works that simply.”

“That’s not how Jasnah does it,” she said, perhaps too defensively.

“Yes, that confused me, but supposedly if you use one long enough, you learn how to control them better.” He shook his head. “I don’t like the mystery that has grown up around them. It smells too much like the mysticism of the old Hierocracy. We’d better not find ourselves treading down that path again. What would it matter if people knew how simple the Soulcasters are to use? The principles and gifts of the Almighty are often simple.”

Shallan assumes that Kabsal is wrong because that's not how Jasnah does it, but we of course learn that she never had one anyway. Kabsal has apparently heard this from multiple sources, and I don't see why he'd be lying to Shallan about this.

If it is truly that simple, it is actually possible that you could learn how to operate a Soulcaster simply through observation. I imagine Intent plays a role still, but it still seems like it could work.

On 4/3/2017 at 11:06 AM, The One Who Connects said:

Lastly Calderis, the bit about interfering with Allomancy was basically my speculation. I feel like being fully inside an Invested object will prevent you from messing with objects outside of it via other Investiture(sort of like a very rich man's aluminum) We know that Radiants in Dalinar's visions could lash in plate, so I don't think the lack of touch is the main issue there. I don't have any real evidence to back up what I'm speculating, but we don't really have anything definitive about using magic in Plate other than what's been said.

Turns out we're probably wrong here:

Quote

INTERVIEW: Oct 6th, 2015

Shadows of Self-Denver

KAYLA

Is it possible to use a Steelpush while wearing Shardplate?

BRANDON SANDERSON

After some confusion re: not Pushing on the Plate, but something else: yes. And we… think the mass of the plate would be what determined the force needed, not its (much lighter) effective weight to the bearer

The source is a bit unfortunate in that there was some confusion and it is paraphrased, but unless they completely misunderstood Brandon's clarification, it seems to indicate that you can indeed push on stuff while inside Plate. The idea of a Mistborn in Plate suddenly becomes terrifying.

 

Last bit of info to discuss:

Quote

INTERVIEW: Feb 28th, 2011

Reddit Fantasy Bookclub Q&A with Brandon Sanderson (Verbatim)

PHAZ ()

In your gut instinct, who would win in a fight, Marsh (no atium, limited feruchemy) or Szeth? (Or maybe we could go Zane & Szeth since I see a lot of similarities in their characters. They also happen to be my favorites from their respective series)

BRANDON SANDERSON

First question: It's always hard to answer these questions, since there are so many factors. Do the combatants start at a distance? If so, Marsh/Zane have a huge advantage; they have the ability to fling coins.

Does Szeth have metal on him? Szeth's Shardblade would be mostly immune to Pushing and Pulling, as it's an Invested object. But he'd still have trouble getting to them if he had a clasp on his shoes, for example. He doesn't carry a lot of metal, but he might have some.

Overall, I'd say that a full-blown Mistborn would be tougher than Szeth in most cases.

That is pretty crazy if you think about it. Right up until Kaladin kills him, Szeth is presented as by far the most dangerous combatant on Roshar. The fact that a Mistborn can go toe to toe, to say nothing of an Inquisitor, does not give me much hope for Roshar in a conflict. This doesn't even account for something like the Mistborn getting their hands on a Shardblade.

Edited April 5, 2017 by 8bitBob

[Rich2244]

45 minutes ago, 8bitBob said:

I've finished my WoK and WoR reread, and I've come across some interesting info.

This scene is actually interesting. Long story short, he actually one hit kills both Shardbearers in this scene. One with a stone and one with his Honorblade, both of which utilized repeated Lashings and falling a fair distance. Both Shardbearers had been lightly knocked around by things like falling spearmen, but it was played off as a distraction, and at no point were they described as having their armor cracked or leaking Stormlight.

For the stone, the details are vague. He lashes a stone of indeterminate size exactly twenty times, it falls an indeterminate distances and shatters the breastplate, killing the user. From reading the scene, the stone appears to at least be smaller than a man's torso, as it was not described as crushing him or damaging anything other than the breastplate. The distance it falls is harder to determine, but the battle takes place in a banquet hall of some sort, so it could only fall so far.

Based on this, I still think it pretty likely that a Coinshot could generate that level of force if they had some more distance to work with. Worst case scenario, you get some Mistings to work as a team, instantly doubling the force you can output after they get some practice aiming as a team. I don't think this would be necessary though.

So it seems we may be wrong about how difficult it is to Soulcast:

  Reveal hidden contents

“Have you ever heard anyone talk about using one?” She cringed at the bold statement. Would it make him suspicious?

He just nodded idly. “There’s a secret to it, Shallan.”

“Really?” she asked, heart in her throat.

He looked up at her, seeming conspiratorial. “It’s really not that difficult.”

“It…What?”

“It’s true,” he said. “I’ve heard it from several ardents. There’s so much shadow and ritual surrounding Soulcasters. They’re kept mysterious, aren’t used where people can see. But the truth is, there’s not much to them. You just put one on, press your hand against something, and tap a gemstone with your finger. It works that simply.”

“That’s not how Jasnah does it,” she said, perhaps too defensively.

“Yes, that confused me, but supposedly if you use one long enough, you learn how to control them better.” He shook his head. “I don’t like the mystery that has grown up around them. It smells too much like the mysticism of the old Hierocracy. We’d better not find ourselves treading down that path again. What would it matter if people knew how simple the Soulcasters are to use? The principles and gifts of the Almighty are often simple.”

Shallan assumes that Kabsal is wrong because that's not how Jasnah does it, but we of course learn that she never had one anyway. Kabsal has apparently heard this from multiple sources, and I don't see why he'd be lying to Shallan about this.

If it is truly that simple, it is actually possible that you could learn how to operate a Soulcaster simply through observation. I imagine Intent plays a role still, but it still seems like it could work.

Turns out we're probably wrong here:

The source is a bit unfortunate in that there was some confusion and it is paraphrased, but unless they completely misunderstood Brandon's clarification, it seems to indicate that you can indeed push on stuff while inside Plate. The idea of a Mistborn in Plate suddenly becomes terrifying.

 

Last bit of info to discuss:

That is pretty crazy if you think about it. Right up until Kaladin kills him, Szeth is presented as by far the most dangerous combatant on Roshar. The fact that a Mistborn can go toe to toe, to say nothing of an Inquisitor, does not give me much hope for Roshar in a conflict. This doesn't even account for something like the Mistborn getting their hands on a Shardblade.

In my mind there are two huge pieces of information that I hadn't considered In that post.

First, the point about shardplate and allomancy, I think that is huge as I work or have assumed the opposite, Shardplate is actually hugely beneficial to Steel and Iron as it increases your weight.

Second, is Szeth being viewed as at a very slight disadvantage compared to mistborn, to me this arguably puts mistborn below Windrunners, whereas I would have believed the opposite before this post, Kaladin is a very weak windrunner whenhe fights Szeth, but Szeth CAN win against mistborn, to me that puts him in their league whereas I do not think he is in Kaladins, Kal uses less stormlight, said has far more endurance, durability, can heal from worse injuries (shardblade wounds, Szeth thinks he can't help from these), no limit on his shardblade, can use surgebinding without his blade, that's all I can think of but I'm sure there are more. Surely this puts Kaladin above a mistborn, which is huge?

[8bitBob]

16 minutes ago, Rich2244 said:

First, the point about shardplate and allomancy, I think that is huge as I work or have assumed the opposite, Shardplate is actually hugely beneficial to Steel and Iron as it increases your weight.

Well, that assumes that having Plate actually increases your ability to push, rather than simply behaving as a bunch of dead weight around you, which would just make it harder for you to get around via Steelpush. Possible, but who knows.

4 minutes ago, Rich2244 said:

Surely this puts Kaladin above a mistborn, which is huge?

It probably puts him above a vanilla Mistborn, sure, but there's a few things to consider:

• This assumes no Atium
• This assumes the Mistborn does not have a Shardblade, which they can acquire during the war
• Inquisitors (at least some) are much more powerful than Mistborn due to having access to Feruchemical abilities and stronger Allomancy
• Kaladin is just one man and by far the most dangerous proto-Radiant we've seen in action, whereas there are a fair number of Inquisitors and Mistborn

Personally, I'd give a massive advantage to an Inquisitor with a Shardblade over Kaladin in a straight fight. Now, if we're talking pre-Recreance Roshar (with tonnes of Radiants) vs TFE Scadrial, then I assume Scadrial is going to have a much harder time of it, but that's a whole other discussion.

Also, just as a sidenote, Szeth can still surgebind if his Honorblade is dismissed.

[Rich2244]

17 minutes ago, 8bitBob said:

Well, that assumes that having Plate actually increases your ability to push, rather than simply behaving as a bunch of dead weight around you, which would just make it harder for you to get around via Steelpush. Possible, but who knows.

It probably puts him above a vanilla Mistborn, sure, but there's a few things to consider:

• This assumes no Atium
• This assumes the Mistborn does not have a Shardblade, which they can acquire during the war
• Inquisitors (at least some) are much more powerful than Mistborn due to having access to Feruchemical abilities and stronger Allomancy
• Kaladin is just one man and by far the most dangerous proto-Radiant we've seen in action, whereas there are a fair number of Inquisitors and Mistborn

Personally, I'd give a massive advantage to an Inquisitor with a Shardblade over Kaladin in a straight fight. Now, if we're talking pre-Recreance Roshar (with tonnes of Radiants) vs TFE Scadrial, then I assume Scadrial is going to have a much harder time of it, but that's a whole other discussion.

Also, just as a sidenote, Szeth can still surgebind if his Honorblade is dismissed.

Ok point 1, your ability to push is determined by your weight, very simply pushing an object pushes you in the opposite direction as should be obvious, shardplate is incredibly heavy so it massively increases the force you can push with. If the shardplate doesn't interfere with allomancy it gives pushing objects away or pulling objects closer a huge amount more power, and obviously the opposite in reverse, steel pushers would be far far less mobile for example. 

Point 2, shardblades are rosharan relics, they are not easy to steal, they are normally not even in existence, you cannot assume any mistborn will possess one, Atium is firstly a metal so mistborn rarely carry it as they are scared of other mistborn, if/ when they do they normally consume it, then it is limited and in my mind is largely defensive if you are fighting a physically superior opponent. Atium gives very slight foresight, it still relies on reactions and fighting intuition, when you fight someone in shardplate, they are stronger, faster and generally more combat aware than you, that makes it very difficult to fight even when you know what they are going to do, as they will change what they are doing based on what you are doing and if they are faster than you they can react faster than you can. The point about inquisitors I agree 100%, and lastly the credit you are giving Kaladin as a radiant who has just gained his shardblade, has been aware of his powers for a shorter time than any mistborn in the series including Vin, who is obviously incredibly intuitive when it comes to allomancy and has been subconsciously using her powers for a long time, and is rapidly getting stronger and shows no sign of slowing down only further reinforces my point. I would give Kaladin as is  a very slight advantage over an average inquisitor, maybe close to Marsh level, though I would give Marsh an advantage over Kal.

[Dellexe]

6 hours ago, Blackhoof said:

@KalaDellexe

It could simply be that in the context of smaller battles between rival Alethi lords, the rules around squad composition are not really enforced by the commanders. In a serious war, with higher quality soldiers and commanders, there would certainly be a stricter adherence to organisation. Likely the sub-commanders who should direct groups of squads are also just incompetent, and so the squadleaders largely have free rein to act as they wish. All he decent commanders are at the Shattered Plains.

That seems like a recipe for disaster for me, if they're really that different. If Alethkar-armies and Shattered Plains-Armies operate completely differently, then working together is going to be as difficult as two entirely different nations trying to coordinate their armies. Even if you purged all the Alethkar-army commanders, you'd need months to train and retrain the Alethkar-armies. 

If Alethkar-armies are not representative of Shattered Plains-Armies, then the Alethi military is dysfunctional, fragmented, and merging them would be like telling the Russian Army to integrate with the U.S. Army during WWII. They would have completely different structure, training, expectations, etc. 

As opposed to this, if Alethkar-Armies ARE representative of Shattered Plains-Armies, then they will integrate much more smoothly, but they still have the problems I laid out in my TLDR. 

27 minutes ago, Rich2244 said:

Point 2, shardblades are rosharan relics, they are not easy to steal, they are normally not even in existence, you cannot assume any mistborn will possess one, Atium is firstly a metal so mistborn rarely carry it as they are scared of other mistborn, if/ when they do they normally consume it, then it is limited and in my mind is largely defensive if you are fighting a physically superior opponent. Atium gives very slight foresight, it still relies on reactions and fighting intuition, when you fight someone in shardplate, they are stronger, faster and generally more combat aware than you, that makes it very difficult to fight even when you know what they are going to do, as they will change what they are doing based on what you are doing and if they are faster than you they can react faster than you can.

Shardblades drop to the ground when their owners die. Mistborn carry metals anyways, as we see in Kelsier's training in Eleventh Metal, plus they're supposed to be working together against a non-Mistborn enemy so they should have no reason to not carry metals. It is not largely defensive; it also shows you every opening your opponent makes before they make it allowing you to counter every swing. Shardplate makes someone stronger, but do we have evidence of Shardbearers actually reacting faster because of Shardplate? I don't believe we do. Pewter, in any case, gives Allomancers enhanced speed as well, enough to blitz ordinary humans with relative ease. 

[8bitBob]

8 minutes ago, Rich2244 said:

Ok point 1, your ability to push is determined by your weight, very simply pushing an object pushes you in the opposite direction as should be obvious, shardplate is incredibly heavy so it massively increases the force you can push with.

Point of clarity: your weight does not necessarily affect the amount of force you can Steelpush with. There's a bit of confusion surrounding this, as Kelsier claims he had an advantage against Vin, but he could simply be referring to the fact that, if both of them push on something, she will fly away faster due to her smaller mass, rather than her having weaker steelpushes. I'm currently doing a reread of the original trilogy, and I'm hoping to be able to gain some insight into this, but it is not clear cut. It gets even more complicated when you think about Wax. On the one hand, all of his most impressive pushes have involved increasing his weight, but on the other hand, he specifically says it gets harder to push himself as his weight increases and he slows down, which implies he's not pushing any harder.

Regardless, even if your personal weight plays a factor, that still does not mean wearing Plate makes you push harder. It would allow you to push on objects without getting knocked back as far, but you can accomplish the same thing by pushing or pulling on another anchor to counteract it (like basically every Mistborn we've seen do.)

20 minutes ago, Rich2244 said:

shardblades are rosharan relics, they are not easy to steal, they are normally not even in existence, you cannot assume any mistborn will possess one

Remember that this scenario is based around the idea that Roshar and Scadrial are at war. It is entirely plausible for Scadrial to kill Shardbearers during the conflict and steal their Shards. We have seen Szeth kill multiple Shardbearers plus dozens of infantry by himself, and regular Mistborn are supposed to be more dangerous than him according to WoB. I see no reason why they can't get their hands on a few and then use them to fight Kaladin.

25 minutes ago, Rich2244 said:

Atium is firstly a metal so mistborn rarely carry it as they are scared of other mistborn

You're making the assumption here that Mistborn are preparing to fight other Mistborn, which is not the case here. There's no reason they wouldn't bring Atium to fight against non metalborn. Maybe in the very first battle if they knew nothing about each other, but this is a war, not a single fight.

28 minutes ago, Rich2244 said:

when they do they normally consume it, then it is limited and in my mind is largely defensive if you are fighting a physically superior opponent. Atium gives very slight foresight, it still relies on reactions and fighting intuition

You are massively, massively underestimating Atium here. For a long time, it was basically assumed that the only way to beat someone with Atium is to have more Atium. It is literally the ability to perfectly predict what your opponent is going to do, and expanding your mind to be able to interpret these possibilities and react accordingly. It is a God metal. It is OP.

As for being physically superior, I think you're forgetting that Pewter exists. If Kaladin or Szeth can fight Shardbearers with Stormlight, then I have no doubt that Mistborn could, never mind the fact that they could literally see the future.

35 minutes ago, Rich2244 said:

The point about inquisitors I agree 100%, and lastly the credit you are giving Kaladin as a radiant who has just gained his shardblade, has been aware of his powers for a shorter time than any mistborn in the series including Vin, who is obviously incredibly intuitive when it comes to allomancy and has been subconsciously using her powers for a long time, and is rapidly getting stronger and shows no sign of slowing down only further reinforces my point.

I'm not entirely sure what your point is here. Are you saying that Kaladin is going to get stronger? I mean, sure, most likely, but he's still just one guy.

41 minutes ago, Rich2244 said:

I would give Kaladin as is  a very slight advantage over an average inquisitor, maybe close to Marsh level, though I would give Marsh an advantage over Kal.

Basically, it comes down to whether or not they have access to Feruchemical speed, which not every Inquisitor did. If I was Scadrial, first thing I'd do is give a stolen Shardblade to one who did and have him assassinate Kaladin with a massive burst of speed. It's kind of hard to fight someone who moves faster than you can see and can kill you in one hit.

[Calderis]

Brandon himself has said it's hard to beat someone with atium, period. Atium just wins outright.

@Rich2244 On steel pushes in plate, your assuming that the plate somehow increases the weight of the wearer. It doesn't. They push with their physical weight and are now encased in a heavy suit of armor. So they have one hell of a good anchor for pushing objects, but flight is off the table because they have to lift the plate. Wax's ability is as strong a pair specifically because it increases his weight. If coinshots could just load up and push harder it would be common practice and we'd see it in book. 

[Oversleep]

41 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Wax's ability is as strong a pair specifically because it increases his weight. If coinshots could just load up and push harder it would be common practice and we'd see it in book. 

Not really because it would impede their ability to fly on Steelpushes while Wax can turn on his weight temporarily or even decrease it to augment his flight.

Anyway, on the whole "Pushing in Shardplate" thing - your weight is increased so you can Push harder; it's not about the force you apply being increased but the distribution of it. It's the same as Wax tapping iron.

It's easier to understand when you model Steelpushing as putting a spring between two objects. If you stack things on one of the objects to make it heavier, the other object would move more than the first one.

Edited April 6, 2017 by Oversleep

[Calderis]

You missed my point. Yes the ability to alter his weight on the fly affects the strength of the ability greatly. But his ability to level a building comes from the weight being a part of him. If someone in plate tried the same, they'd press themselves against the inside of the plate and push no harder than a normal coinshot presence against a wall. 

[asterion137]

3 minutes ago, Calderis said:

You missed my point. Yes the ability to alter his weight on the fly affects the strength of the ability greatly. But his ability to level a building comes from the weight being a part of him. If someone in plate tried the same, they'd press themselves against the inside of the plate and push no harder than a normal coinshot presence against a wall. 

Well they could probably push harder in the same way that any person could push harder if they brace themself against a wall. Their muscular strength wouldn't change but they still would be pushing harder.

[Dellexe]

They would be braced more, and be able to move heavier objects. The force of their Push wouldn't change, but they would now be more of anchor. This is why Wax's combo is powerful, when he destroys the building from the top-down, he should fly straight up, but because he's increased his weight so much, the building is lighter than he is, so therefore the building moves, not him. 

More weight doesn't increase the strength of Pushes, it increases how much weight they can move without themselves being moved. 

[The One Who Connects]

Too many people to quote while on mobile, so assume I'm talking to most of you. This is just calrifying/responding to points.

1. This is difficult to word satisfactorily, so bear with me. Does it make sense that a smaller object would have to hit with more force to do the same amount of damage as a larger object with less force? It makes sense to me that several smaller hits would be needed to equal the damage of a bigger hit because of surface area. Bullets(or coins) have better odds of punching a hole in something because the smaller impact surface hyper stresses a small segment of the armor, while a hammer blow wears out a large chunk more equally. But you don't punch holes in Shardplate.

2) Modern understanding of the Cognitive Realm most likely came from something other than Radiants (Info lost in Desolations, Recreance saw books burned..) and the only other thing that lets people cross the realms(other than the Pools) would be Soulcasters. It stands to reason that the Ardentia still has similar experiences to Shallan's for the purpose of Soulcasting. I know that this is where intent would come in, but the whole concept (and any sight into the Cognitive) could possibly disorient our thieves trying to figure it out, which is why I brought up their lack of Realmatic Understanding in Era 1.

3) Mistborn going toe-to-toe against Szeth is probably a tough call because Mistborn have a wider variety of powers to use. They have more options, and "the more you can do, the less you can't do" Rich brought up that a Radiant has slower Stormlight loss and a larger reserve, which functionally equates to larger metal reserves. The shapeshifting weapon for a Radiant could be an issue, but there aren't enough of them for it to be game breaking.

4) Pushing Strength is a separate stat from your Pushing Limit. They interact, but more of one does not mean more of the other. Your Pushing Strength equates to how much force you can push with. Your Pushing Limit is how much weight you have. You can't push something heavier than you because you will be moved. You can increase this limit using anchors so you don't move as much, but you can't go beyond your Strength. Shardplate would increase your limit, as you are "heavier," but your Allomantic Strength in Steel/Iron doesn't change just because you gained weight. It'll largely kill flight, as you have to life more weight, but that was assumed already.

5) Inquisitor Powers: They didn't have Feruchemical Powers until Ruin was released. Even if they did find the Feruchemists to spike, they don't know the bind points for F-Powers. Ruin does, which is how Marsh learned. (Or Ruin was in control at the time, and the Inquisitor didn't need to know)

6) Atium is very useful, but it burns relatively fast and is still pretty rare. TLR could probably bend the rules a bit in wartime, but the stuff kept the economy moving because it was costly and in demand.

[Datan Nomlibash]

I think Scardial has the advantage mostly due to mistborn and kandra. Think about it, the most powerful nation on Roshar is the alethi. All it would take would be to have the kandra sniff out one of the fancy dinner parties then have some mistborn drop in and spray coins every were (it not like they have armored shardbearers at those things) and bam! You not only killed many influential people on team roshar but you shamed the ruling elite in a very efficient way. The survivors would have to not only deal with demorilization but all the new people who step up to fill the power vacuum (inheritance's and such) in shot you completely overturn the powerstructure and create political instability which is never a good thing in a time of war.

-----

In a strait up battle I sort of give an edge to roshar since even if there are very few radients there are still armored shard bearers and they are pretty badchull when it comes down to it. Though there are some problems.

A armored shard bearer vs misting:

Shardbearer wins cuz shardblade

Armored shard bearer vs mistborn (no atium):

I see it as a draw. If the shardbearer catches the mistborn then its game over but mistborn can push off of coins to fly around. The mistborn could effectively kite the shard bearer and keep popping off coins till something breaks. The only problem is how many coins would it take? At very least the mistborn could annoy the shardbearer and then fly off to refill when they started running low.

Armored shard bearer vs mistborn (with atium):

Throwing knife through the eyeball, easy win.

Armored shard bearers vs kolloss horde:

Individually shard bearers have the advantage obviously. But there are so many kollosses (kolloi?) That numbers might just win out. Remember on the tower adolin and dalinar almost died to regular parshendi troops. Also kolloss are easily replaced.

-----

Roshar advantages

Soulcasters: An army marches on its stomach and soulcasters not only allow roshar to field more soldiers but their army is less reliant on supply chains. Also instant fortifications are nice.

Greatshells: If you could get some greatshell riders together it would probably be pretty dangerous

-----

Im gonna stop there since I need to go to bed.

[Fezzik]

@The One Who Connects, 5) correction: inquisitors did have at the very least feruchemical gold before ruin.

[Dellexe]

16 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

5) Inquisitor Powers: They didn't have Feruchemical Powers until Ruin was released. Even if they did find the Feruchemists to spike, they don't know the bind points for F-Powers. Ruin does, which is how Marsh learned. (Or Ruin was in control at the time, and the Inquisitor didn't need to know)

 

I thought that they did have some Feruchemical spikes pre-Ruin. I remember reading somewhere that they had to sleep so often to refill health metalminds, since the Lord Ruler didn't give them Gold Allomancy. I could be wrong, though. 

Looking at the Coppermind, apparently while Kelsier was alive some had Feruchemical spikes, but they weren't taught how to Compound by TLR, and learned that by themselves. No source, however. 

[8bitBob]

4 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

2) Modern understanding of the Cognitive Realm most likely came from something other than Radiants (Info lost in Desolations, Recreance saw books burned..) and the only other thing that lets people cross the realms(other than the Pools) would be Soulcasters. It stands to reason that the Ardentia still has similar experiences to Shallan's for the purpose of Soulcasting. I know that this is where intent would come in, but the whole concept (and any sight into the Cognitive) could possibly disorient our thieves trying to figure it out, which is why I brought up their lack of Realmatic Understanding in Era 1.

Basically, there is no modern understanding of the Cognitive Realm. When Shallan describes it to Jasnah at the end of WoK, she is shocked and asks her where she learned about it. It seems unlikely that Jasnah could not pry this information from the ardents in Kholinar. Heretic or not, she is sister to the King and one of the most prominent scholars in the world.

I think it is more likely that Kabsal is correct, and Soulcaster fabrials are not as complex to use as Soulcaster surgebinding (with the likely trade off of being less flexible, which is another thing said of them.) A tool made for a task rather than a set of paint brushes, if you will. While I'm sure they are devilishly complex to design and build, fabrials have been presented as fairly simple to operate so far.

11 minutes ago, The One Who Connects said:

5) Inquisitor Powers: They didn't have Feruchemical Powers until Ruin was released. Even if they did find the Feruchemists to spike, they don't know the bind points for F-Powers. Ruin does, which is how Marsh learned. (Or Ruin was in control at the time, and the Inquisitor didn't need to know)

Nah, Inquisitors had some level of Feruchemy before the death of the Lord Ruler. This is why they had to rest for extended periods of time, and why they had accelerated healing far beyond Pewter, like when Vin cuts up the Inquisitor's face and he walks back into the room fully healed shortly after.

[The One Who Connects]

@8bitBobedit: and the others whose notification didn't show up..

Fair enough on the Gold Healing that Kar had, but I was under the assumption that the need for sleep was due to being "worn out" somehow(also from Kar's perspective) rather than a power.

Either way, they still don't know how to compound yet. (Marsh learned because of Sazed's musings on how TLR did it, which gave him a head start)

I'll look at the scene again, b/c Jasnah's wording could make all the difference. We know Shallan led a .. somewhat sheltered early life, and odds are that Jasnah knew that. We also know that Ardents try to keep a tight grip on their tech and secrets. It's entirely possible Jasnah would assume Shallan has never used a Soulcaster or learned about Shadesmar from the Ardentia, and thus asked her how she knew what she did. Her wording is key, so I may be spouting rubbish.

Also, fairly sure there was WoB a long while back about either the Ardents or Roshar as a whole being more Realmatically aware than other worlds. So there is a modern understanding 

Edited April 6, 2017 by The One Who Connects