Dark Eyes and Odium

[Blightsong he/him]

So today I was thinking of eye color in the Cosmere and how light eyes probably originate from people tied to Honor and/or Cultivation and how this ties in with connection to a shard when I realized something. Why have we never guessed that dark eyes come from people tired with Odium?

If they were made by Honor and Cultivation there is no reason for their eyes to be dark, and if they came from Yolen then they would have normal eyes. But Odium? I think this has to do with the black sphere that Gavilar had, and he was trying to return the Voidbringers, so I think that this theory holds some validaty, as Odium us probably somewhat related to the color black like ruin, as well as red. Tell me what you guys think.

Edited April 6, 2016 by Blightsong

[Khyrindor he/him]

Darkeyes don't have solid black eyes though. They just aren't bright colors like the Lighteyes. Anyone with dark brown, or even deep blue here would be classified as Darkeyes on Roshar. Lighteyes are descendants from the Radiants of old, and the bloodlines keep the eyes light. When you become a Radiant, your eyes turn light, like Kaladin. It just means that you are Invested with Honor's power. Darkeyes just have a lack of that. If they were Invested by Odium, they would probably have eyes similar to the Parshendi when they adopted Stormform.

[Eki]

I think darkeyes DO have normal eyes, and so do most lighteyes. Some lighteyes seem to have gotten their eye color from some sort of connection to shards or spren (and maybe those are extra shiny eyes? I dunno), but other than that, I think they're all just normal eyes.

Remember that the story is told through the eyes (!) of people who live in the world. What they call "darkeyes", we would probably just call "people with eyes in different shades of brown".

I may be wrong though, and maybe there really is more to it.

[Pathfinder]

I think darkeyes DO have normal eyes, and so do most lighteyes. Some lighteyes seem to have gotten their eye color from some sort of connection to shards or spren (and maybe those are extra shiny eyes? I dunno), but other than that, I think they're all just normal eyes.

Remember that the story is told through the eyes (!) of people who live in the world. What they call "darkeyes", we would probably just call "people with eyes in different shades of brown".

I may be wrong though, and maybe there really is more to it.

When Moash got his own shardplate, his dark brown eyes became a light glowing almost tan. So there is a definite color difference. 

[AliasSheep]

Note that Taln is a darkeyes, and I'm pretty certain that he isn't related to Odium.

 

Also, I agree with the others in this thread in that darkeyes refers to darker eye shades rather than a specific unnatural eye colour.

[The Ninja Yodeler he/him]

Lighteyes are descendants from the Radiants of old, and the bloodlines keep the eyes light.

I don't think it has anything to do with them being descendants of the Radiants. Pretty sure they just took up the whole lighteye darkeye caste system because the Heralds and Radiants(not so much Radiants since they see them as traitors) had lighteyes, and they were obviously the most powerful people around. So they simply went with lighteye equals closer to their gods, while darkeyes were lower in the system. At least that's what I got from the explanations in the books.

[Eki]

When Moash got his own shardplate, his dark brown eyes became a light glowing almost tan. So there is a definite color difference. 

If you mean shardblade, then yeah. His eyes became brighter because of his connection to a (dead) spren (presumably). I think that change is passed down genetically as well, but it's possible that some just started out with blue/green eyes, without any ancestors owning shardblades or being Radiants. (Although, since it's been so long, most people are probably related to Radiants one way or another)

 

I don't think it has anything to do with them being descendants of the Radiants. Pretty sure they just took up the whole lighteye darkeye caste system because the Heralds and Radiants(not so much Radiants since they see them as traitors) had lighteyes, and they were obviously the most powerful people around. So they simply went with lighteye equals closer to their gods, while darkeyes were lower in the system. At least that's what I got from the explanations in the books.

Like AliasSheep said, the Heralds don't all have bright eyes. The Vorin peoples assume they do, but that's because of their bias, not the other way around. (I think people do have bright eyes while they have an honorblade summoned, but I'm not sure.)

 

I think it has much to do with shardblades though. People with shardblades were lighteyes, and had more power, so they decided they were better than others.

[DreamEternal]

Just a note: the darkeyed people of Roshar probably don't have "normal" dark eyes. Their eyes are said to look black most of the time, only showing actual color under the right light.

But that is much more likely to come from their weird genetics than from Odium, IMO.

[The Ninja Yodeler he/him]

If you mean shardblade, then yeah. His eyes became brighter because of his connection to a (dead) spren (presumably). I think that change is passed down genetically as well, but it's possible that some just started out with blue/green eyes, without any ancestors owning shardblades or being Radiants. (Although, since it's been so long, most people are probably related to Radiants one way or another)

 

Like AliasSheep said, the Heralds don't all have bright eyes. The Vorin peoples assume they do, but that's because of their bias, not the other way around. (I think people do have bright eyes while they have an honorblade summoned, but I'm not sure.)

 

I think it has much to do with shardblades though. People with shardblades were lighteyes, and had more power, so they decided they were better than others.

Yeah that last bit was basically what I was trying to say lol. My only argument really was that light eyes aren't descendants of Radiants. Well, not necessarily. The lighteye just said" Oh, well they have light eyes, and so do we. But those others don't. So we obviously are better than them, hence more fit to rule."

Plus, on the descendants of Radiants bit. Pretty sure if Kal met a nice darkeye radiant woman, they get hot and heavy, and have a bebeh, that bebeh would be a darkeyes most likely.

[natc]

I recall a WoB that some lighteyed bloodlines did occur from random mutations rather than anything supernatural.

Dark colored eyes are basically normal where I am from, though it's mostly just the same color. I chalk the color variance up to Roshar genetics, but the degree of darkness in eye color where you have to look closely to tell just what color it is is not exactly that strange at all.

[DreamEternal]

I recall a WoB that some lighteyed bloodlines did occur from random mutations rather than anything supernatural.

Dark colored eyes are basically normal where I am from, though it's mostly just the same color. I chalk the color variance up to Roshar genetics, but the degree of darkness in eye color where you have to look closely to tell just what color it is is not exactly that strange at all.

I don't know, dark enough for it to be hard to tell dark purple and dark brown or green apart? That would be so dark distinguishing iris and pupil would be almost impossible.

And dark eyes are also normal where I come from, but unless it is very dark I can see their brown color.

Edited April 7, 2016 by DreamEternal

[natc]

I basically have to have the mirror up in my face in a well-lit room to figure out where the outline of my pupil is, that's for sure. At a distance it's a bit tough. Pretty clearly brown if I get a good look though.

Edited April 7, 2016 by natc

[Blightsong he/him]

The one problem I have with the dark eyes' namesake being genetics is that the examples we see of light eyes and dark eyes having children don't really match up with genetics. Normal people with normal eyes don't get one dark eye and one light one from just genetics. There is obviously something at least semi-magical happening there.

It's not to hard to imagine humans siding with Odium, and then being subjugated once the final desolation ended.

As for the heralds, keep in mind that some (if not all) arent neccesarily native to Roshar. I think there is a distinction between having brown eyes, and being a dark eyes. I think that some heralds just have brown eyes.

[Erunion he/him]

The one problem I have with the dark eyes' namesake being genetics is that the examples we see of light eyes and dark eyes having children don't really match up with genetics. Normal people with normal eyes don't get one dark eye and one light one from just genetics. There is obviously something at least semi-magical happening there.

It's not to hard to imagine humans siding with Odium, and then being subjugated once the final desolation ended.

As for the heralds, keep in mind that some (if not all) arent neccesarily native to Roshar. I think there is a distinction between having brown eyes, and being a dark eyes. I think that some heralds just have brown eyes.

 

Sorry, but people do get one dark/one light eye from genetics. It's rare, and it's called heterachromia. (example under spoiler tags)

 

The most likely explanation is the simplest one: Alethkar was formerly ruled by the Radiants, who all had light eyes because of their Investiture. Light eyes were then associated with rule in Alethkar. When the Radiants disbursed, the association remained. When a person bonded a shardblade, their eyes lightened. This served to reinforce the 'Lighteyes rule, darkeyes drool' mentality. 

 

The eyes described as dark are just normal dark eyes. The eyes described as light are the same, normal light eyes (note that Hoid's eyes are blue, and it appears that they are similar to the Alethi blue eyes, as they ascribed to him the position of lighteyes).

 

Don't get me wrong; Roshar definitely has some unique genetics going on. They have light amber eyes (we get brown eyes that are light enough to be considered light, but that's a far cry from amber!) as well as violet eyes. And they have plenty of darkeyes in interesting colours (here, almost all of the dark eyed people have brown eyes, whereas in Roshar extremely dark green eyes and extremely dark violet eyes are both mentioned). 

 

Please note: it appears that what makes a darkeye a darkeye, is that you can't tell their eyes as anything other than dark/blackish (the most common eye colour on Earth, BTW) unless you see them in just the right lighting (in much the same way as it happens here, take anyone with 'black' eyes, shine a bright enough light or catch the right angle and you'll see they're actually brown eyes).

[kaellok he/him]

I don't think it has anything to do with them being descendants of the Radiants. Pretty sure they just took up the whole lighteye darkeye caste system because the Heralds and Radiants(not so much Radiants since they see them as traitors) had lighteyes, and they were obviously the most powerful people around. So they simply went with lighteye equals closer to their gods, while darkeyes were lower in the system. At least that's what I got from the explanations in the books.

In addition to what others have said:

 

Pre-Recreance, those with dark eyes held power (note: I don't remember it being specifically clear in the chapter "Starfall" of WoK whether only the darkeyes were in positions of authority, or if Dalinar's assumed persona's eye color was mentioned.)  We don't know the exact power structure, but it was certainly not the same system that exists in the 'present'.

 

Hoid also tells Kaladin that basing power off of eye color is no worse or different than most other ways, and actually has some basis of fact to it (fact? legitimacy?  I forget the exact word used when talking about this to Kaladin.) (Tried doing a quick google search after I couldn't find it randomly flipping through the book, and found the Coppermind link on lighteyes here, which seems to reference this.)

 

We also know that wielding a Shardblade will change the color of someone's eyes, probably permanently.  Every Shardbearer has lighteyes while wielding their Shardblade, after all, even if they were darkeyes before.  It's entirely reasonable and likely to assume that Bond made with the Blade alters the person's sDNA permanently, and becomes a heritable trait.  The Royal Locks seen in Warbreaker are a trait likely expressed similarly, and we may be seeing strains of this in the Alethi hair (where someone who is half-Alethi has exactly half of their hair black, the other half red or blonde or whatever.  Unless I got the colors wrong in my imagination again. But the percentage thing remains the same regardless.) 

 

All of the evidence (of which there is a surprising amount) suggests that there is more to the lightyeye/darkeye caste split than lighteyes being "closer to the gods."  Instead, it suggests that the lighteyes took the Shards left behind by the Radiants post-Recreance, and used them as weapons to impose their will on the nation.  As Shards were lost over time, the tradition of lighteyes ruling while darkeyes served became entrenched instead of "I have a Shard that made me a lighteyes--do what I say or I will kill you and your hundred soldiers and take what I wanted anyway."

 

(Of interesting note is that Vorin legend has it that any who wields a Shard will become a lighteyes.  This is proven true with Moash.  According to the same legend, their children will also be a lighteyes.  The only reference to this I could find in a WoB was RAFOd, so we don't have conclusive evidence--yet.  Perhaps the next novel will cover a year or so, and Moash will be a father.)

[C. James-Mayer he/him]

I agree with most of the comments here.

 

Red eyes, i.e. Stormform, is assumed to be of Odium, but all else could be just normal eyes. I'd go as far as to say that Listener black eyes are normal eyes for their race, which doesn't come from Odium.

 

Anyway, the key words here are 'dark' and 'light'. The best example, Kaladin's own mother has violet eyes, but they were too dark to be considered lighteyes. And Navani has violet eyes too, but they are more light(bright) and she is considered a lighteyes. That's my simple explanation.

 

Regarding the Radiant/bonding, we know that Szeth's eyes are dark, even after using the Honorblade and Surgebinding for Almighty-knows-how-much, so it leaves us with the only other option:

 

Bonding to a spren (dead or alive) and keeping the bond for a while, one undegoes genetic mutation and his eyecolor changes.

For a spren like Syl, you obviously have to advance in the Oaths like Kaladin. It works very slow at first, but then it's instantly. (WoR Ending 3rd Oath)

For a dead spren (Shardblade) you will have to spend unknown time. It works progeressively.

Edited April 7, 2016 by C. James-Mayer

[AerionBFII he/him]

I think they're just normal Light coloured eyes, mostly a mutation but i think if you were a Dark Eyes and gained a Shardblade and fathered a child you would have Lighteyed children. It's a form of investiture that alters your Spirit web right? Perhaps it's just a physical manifestation? 

[Blightsong he/him]

Sorry, but people do get one dark/one light eye from genetics. It's rare, and it's called heterachromia. (example under spoiler tags)

The most likely explanation is the simplest one: Alethkar was formerly ruled by the Radiants, who all had light eyes because of their Investiture. Light eyes were then associated with rule in Alethkar. When the Radiants disbursed, the association remained. When a person bonded a shardblade, their eyes lightened. This served to reinforce the 'Lighteyes rule, darkeyes drool' mentality.

The eyes described as dark are just normal dark eyes. The eyes described as light are the same, normal light eyes (note that Hoid's eyes are blue, and it appears that they are similar to the Alethi blue eyes, as they ascribed to him the position of lighteyes).

Don't get me wrong; Roshar definitely has some unique genetics going on. They have light amber eyes (we get brown eyes that are light enough to be considered light, but that's a far cry from amber!) as well as violet eyes. And they have plenty of darkeyes in interesting colours (here, almost all of the dark eyed people have brown eyes, whereas in Roshar extremely dark green eyes and extremely dark violet eyes are both mentioned).

Please note: it appears that what makes a darkeye a darkeye, is that you can't tell their eyes as anything other than dark/blackish (the most common eye colour on Earth, BTW) unless you see them in just the right lighting (in much the same way as it happens here, take anyone with 'black' eyes, shine a bright enough light or catch the right angle and you'll see they're actually brown eyes).

I knew that this was a thing on earth, bit on Roshar its a LOT (at least that is how is implied when we learn that that one Ghostblood dude's kid is dark and light eyed) more common and seems only to happen when dark and light eyes have kids. There isn't a large amount of light eyes with two light eyes that are different color, or dark eyes with one really dark purple eye and one really dark green eye. There is obviously some interesting interaction taking place, if it pertains to my theory we won't know until someone asks Brandon (which I might have a chance to do this weekend).

As for light eyes being natural genetics, and shard blades just affecting the spirit web, I would like to point out that the spirit web is someone's spiritual DNA, athe least some of which is inheritable. Brandon had said multiple times that eye and hair color is heavily linked to the spirit web, so I'm positive that light eyes do, at least partially, come from recreance era shard bearers.

[Pathfinder]

If you mean shardblade, then yeah. His eyes became brighter because of his connection to a (dead) spren (presumably). I think that change is passed down genetically as well, but it's possible that some just started out with blue/green eyes, without any ancestors owning shardblades or being Radiants. (Although, since it's been so long, most people are probably related to Radiants one way or another)

 

Like AliasSheep said, the Heralds don't all have bright eyes. The Vorin peoples assume they do, but that's because of their bias, not the other way around. (I think people do have bright eyes while they have an honorblade summoned, but I'm not sure.)

 

I think it has much to do with shardblades though. People with shardblades were lighteyes, and had more power, so they decided they were better than others.

Just a point of clarification Moash gets both shardblade and shardplate. So as far as we know you could become lighteyed just from plate, or just from blade. 

 

In regards to the heralds, as you said Taln may have darkeyes normally, but have light eyes when actively using his powers/honorblade just like Kaladin and Szeth, which would be more likely when people would see him as he saves them from the voidbringers vs relaxing sociably with other heralds/radiants.

 

My own personal theory is that in the old world, fighters (radiants and thereby lighteyes), were meant to serve the people (farmers, and thereby darkeyes). Something happened when the radiants fell, that may have resulted in resentment. So when they gave up their shards, and people grabbed them up, they thought of only themselves and power. So then as you said, since the shards turned peoples eyes light, then light eyes became associated with power and became the dominant system. So you go from a battle centered nation of Alethkar aiming to serve and protect all other nations, to a war centered nation aiming to rule and control all other nations. 

[Erunion he/him]

Good points! It seems likely that bonding a spren does permanently change your genetic makeup, giving you a higher chance of lighteyed children. 

This isn't confirmed, and could be down to the probability that people who bond shards marry lighteyes, but does seem likely. So there's something there for sure.

Nevertheless, I don't buy there being anything between darkeyes and Odium: there are FAR more darkeyes than lighteyes (like there are on Earth), and Odium's influence seems to lead to red eyes, not dark ones. (See stormform)

[Jondesu he/him]

Seems to me that red would be more hateful too, than dark.

jW

[Blightsong he/him]

Good points! It seems likely that bonding a spren does permanently change your genetic makeup, giving you a higher chance of lighteyed children.

This isn't confirmed, and could be down to the probability that people who bond shards marry lighteyes, but does seem likely. So there's something there for sure.

Nevertheless, I don't buy there being anything between darkeyes and Odium: there are FAR more darkeyes than lighteyes (like there are on Earth), and Odium's influence seems to lead to red eyes, not dark ones. (See stormform)

I think that these are the most legitimate arguements against my theory, but I think there is definately something involved with corrupted investiture and the eyes ie. Gavilar's sphere, and Nightblood. I'm pretty sure I'll have a chance to ask Brandon about all this over the weekend so I'll get back to everyone then.

[Erunion he/him]

I think that these are the most legitimate arguements against my theory, but I think there is definately something involved with corrupted investiture and the eyes ie. Gavilar's sphere, and Nightblood. I'm pretty sure I'll have a chance to ask Brandon about all this over the weekend so I'll get back to everyone then.

 

There's definitely something, and if Darkeyes eyes were ALL dark (as in, no whites), then there might be something going on there. But they're not (AFAIK). 

And while corrupted Investiture can be dark and smokey (like Nightblood!), dark investiture isn't necessarily corrupted! Look at Ruin's smoke - it's black, thick and smokey but is just Ruin's pure form (the gaseous  version of it, anyway). 

 

Likewise, I would hesitate to say that Gavilar's sphere is filled with Corrupted Investiture. Although it is possible it's filled with Odium's investiture...

[geralt]

If there was an affiliation between Odium and darkeyes, I would guess they'd be unable to bond with Honor spren or at the very least it would have an effect on the bond itself. From what we've seen of Kaladin, that doesn't seem to be the case.

[Blightsong he/him]

First off, I asked Brandon about this, and it seems to be because light eyes are descended from shardbearers or radiants. I still find dark purple and other odd colored eyes, but I guess is just flavor and world building.

There's definitely something, and if Darkeyes eyes were ALL dark (as in, no whites), then there might be something going on there. But they're not (AFAIK).

And while corrupted Investiture can be dark and smokey (like Nightblood!), dark investiture isn't necessarily corrupted! Look at Ruin's smoke - it's black, thick and smokey but is just Ruin's pure form (the gaseous version of it, anyway).

Likewise, I would hesitate to say that Gavilar's sphere is filled with Corrupted Investiture. Although it is possible it's filled with Odium's investiture...

As for this, I have some new WoB on corrupted investiture, I'll post the transcription from my conversation with him probably tonight, maybe tomorrow evening, but it sheds some light on this. Check it out on the events forum in the Oddesey Con thread. Edited April 10, 2016 by Blightsong