Shardplate against bullets?

Voidus · April 4, 2016

How would bullets do against Shardblades?

Well if you tried to cut one pretty poorly, you'd just get hit by two pieces of metal instead of one

As a sprenshield I'm not sure, it's not clear how actually strong a Shardblade is, or what happens when you use it with blunt force rather than an edge.

Haelbarde · April 4, 2016

Well if you tried to cut one pretty poorly, you'd just get hit by two pieces of metal instead of one

As a sprenshield I'm not sure, it's not clear how actually strong a Shardblade is, or what happens when you use it with blunt force rather than an edge.

I was more thinking you try and get the blade to hit the flat edge...

IndigoAjah · April 4, 2016

I stand corrected, thought pewter only gave strength.

For modern weapons I assumed a modern battlefield, which includes any terrain you can think of and urban. At the same time. It isn't unheard of for the fight to start well outside a town and then move into one as you push forward then go back to open fields and forest after that when you've gone through the place. Soldiers carry their own food and water regardless of any other supply plan you have in progress. Couple of reasons; the grunts don't trust officers, officers don't trust grunts, supply clerks think their job is not to issue supplies and all the good stuff usually stays with the bloke driving the truck anyway. The issue with water is not that you aren't strong enough to carry it, but that there isn't any room to. To use a gun properly you almost have to be lying down so you can't put too much on your chest.

You don't need pewter to shrug off the damage, just a bad attitude is sometimes enough, but the gun is stuffed after that. I'd hate to be the bloke taking a club to a shard bearer...

Actually, if they underestimate the Pewterarm enough to let them get a blow in (and remember, Pewterarms are faster, just like a Shardbearer), one good hit could do a lot of damage to the plate. That's a huge club, and flaring Pewterarm big man could put in a huge amount of force - I'd say it would likely be the equivalent of being hit by another Shardbearer with a Shardhammer. A small unit of Pewterarms vs one full Shardbearer would likely favour the Pewterarms

Oversleep · April 4, 2016

Actually, if they underestimate the Pewterarm enough to let them get a blow in (and remember, Pewterarms are faster, just like a Shardbearer), one good hit could do a lot of damage to the plate. That's a huge club, and flaring Pewterarm big man could put in a huge amount of force - I'd say it would likely be the equivalent of being hit by another Shardbearer with a Shardhammer. A small unit of Pewterarms vs one full Shardbearer would likely favour the Pewterarms

If the Shardbearer is in close combat range, all Pewterarms are already dead. Do I need to remind you how long it took Helaran to kill all of the Kaladin's men who were attacking him?

Why Parshendi were able to be any threat to Shardbearers is because warform grants strenght (they were jumping chasms after all) and there was a lot of them.

I know you want to point out we can make it work with enough Pewterarms, but remember that entire Parshendi army consisted of warforms. If we try to send enough Pewterarms to kill Shardbearers in close combat, we're gonna run out of Pewterarms fast.

And even if Scadrians kill a Shardbearer and take his Shards, that won't do them much good. The moment they send a Shardbearer, Alethi respond with their own Shardbearer and any trained Shardbearer will easily defeat somebody without any training with regular sword, not to mention a Shardblade. Scadrians wouldn't know how to properly wield a blade, for them time of swords passed away long ago.

Pathfinder · April 4, 2016

I stand corrected, thought pewter only gave strength.

For modern weapons I assumed a modern battlefield, which includes any terrain you can think of and urban. At the same time. It isn't unheard of for the fight to start well outside a town and then move into one as you push forward then go back to open fields and forest after that when you've gone through the place. Soldiers carry their own food and water regardless of any other supply plan you have in progress. Couple of reasons; the grunts don't trust officers, officers don't trust grunts, supply clerks think their job is not to issue supplies and all the good stuff usually stays with the bloke driving the truck anyway. The issue with water is not that you aren't strong enough to carry it, but that there isn't any room to. To use a gun properly you almost have to be lying down so you can't put too much on your chest.

You don't need pewter to shrug off the damage, just a bad attitude is sometimes enough, but the gun is stuffed after that. I'd hate to be the bloke taking a club to a shard bearer...

So first, I am noticing this topic is starting to merge with the other topic in many ways with the war between roshar and scadrial. Because we went from could shardplate stand up against bullets, to then the practically of applying it to battle. So if this post digresses I apologize.

No worries, if i assumed allomantic pewter in error when we are discussing feruchemical then I apologize. Otherwise allomantic pewter gives strength, speed, dexterity, balance, endurance, durability, and healing. Also just to be clear (not that you implied this, but I always like to cover my bases), when I reply to your comments regarding battle, it is not to say you are wrong. You are clearly knowledgeable in the field and I defer to such knowledge. What I love about Sanderson's books is that he comes up with clever and unique uses for powers. So my replies are more a mental exercise to think, "well if I was a commanding officer, and my troops were put into these situations with this gear, how would I maximize these allomantic resources?". So actually last night I thought of a funny/awesome team. Have a pewter arm, and a coin shot. As the thug pulls the trigger on the heavy machine gun, the coin shot pushes on the bullet casings flying out. So you effectively double the output with the same amount of ammunition. So this also goes to show my level of practical knowledge vs yours in this subject. I should have more used the term modern warfare vs trench or medieval warfare. Trench or medieval warfare would involve wide open areas of staging combat, or use of the environment (forests). Modern warfare, or at least my impression of modern warfare is much more scaled down. You have platoons of a group of men vs a legion. The weapons employed allow for much more accomplished with much less people. So assuming modern warfare where we are discussing a fire team (3 to 4 men), a squad (8 to 12) or a platoon 15 - 30) my responses to your points would change. So first regarding water/food. You could have in a fire team, one pewter arm machine gunner, a coin shot, a tin eye sniper, and a bronze seeker. Those would be for quick small engagements. Perhaps guerilla warfare with the shardbearer. Now for a squad that might do extended engagements, you could increase the number of pewter arms, where two or three would be heavy machine gunners, while 1 or 2 would have standard weapon distribution but be the "mules" for the other pewter arms by being loaded up with food and water for them. Everyone else would carry their own food or water as per normal, so everything would not overly weigh those pewter arms down. The rest of the platoon could have all sorts of combos. Could still have a tin eye sniper coupled with the bronze seeker, while the coin shots lay down covering fire with the heavy machine gun pewter arms.

Pathfinder · April 4, 2016

If the Shardbearer is in close combat range, all Pewterarms are already dead. Do I need to remind you how long it took Helaran to kill all of the Kaladin's men who were attacking him?

Why Parshendi were able to be any threat to Shardbearers is because warform grants strenght (they were jumping chasms after all) and there was a lot of them.

I know you want to point out we can make it work with enough Pewterarms, but remember that entire Parshendi army consisted of warforms. If we try to send enough Pewterarms to kill Shardbearers in close combat, we're gonna run out of Pewterarms fast.

And even if Scadrians kill a Shardbearer and take his Shards, that won't do them much good. The moment they send a Shardbearer, Alethi respond with their own Shardbearer and any trained Shardbearer will easily defeat somebody without any training with regular sword, not to mention a Shardblade. Scadrians wouldn't know how to properly wield a blade, for them time of swords passed away long ago.

Double post since this was put up while i was typing a reply to another post lol.

So few things. First by the time a shardbearer closes on the pewter arm to get clubbed, most of their plate has been shattered or damaged by the bullet barrage from the heavy machine gun which slows down or downright locks up the shardbearer to have his head batted out like a baseball. Second, all of Kal's men that attacked Helaran were just that. Just men. No abilities or investiture. Pewter arms would have the speed, strength, and dexterity to avoid the blade much like Kal using stormlight took them on during Adolin's duel. Warform we know very little if anything at all about its capabilities to compare it to a pewter burner. You can be a track runner, able to run fast, but that doesn't mean you can leap really far. Same thing in reverse. So just because the parshendi war form can leap chasms (from a running start, and cannot do if tired) does not mean it equates with pewter nor stormlight. So the Scadrials get a shardbearer, and back him or her up with the guns that helped them get one to begin with. They wouldn't field the shardbearer alone. And Scadrial still uses dueling canes. True the style would be slightly different as they aim to break arms rather than sever them, but to say they do not use swords at all anymore is not true.

IndigoAjah · April 4, 2016

We have seen that boosted speed and reflexes, seen in Pewter arms and as far as I can tell, roughly equivalent in effect, allow Kaladin to kill one Shardbearer without active manifestation of his Surgebinding or knowledge of what he was doing (though he is naturally also very skilled), dodge against 2 for a prolonged period of time with a limited supply, and was a major factor in Szeth DESTROYING all Shardbearers. Shardbearers vs Speed, SUCK. Now Kal and Szeth are highly combat trained and with an apparent natural affinity, true, but so are most Pewterarms we have seen. They gravitate to those roles. Ham spars vs Vin FFS! Pewter does not just bring strength, it effectively gives you the generic powers of Stormlight infusion but with a longer supply, much much worse healing, no shiny give away and the ability to flare. I have no idea why you think a Shardbearer would cope well against several when all the evidence thus far is to the contrary. Shardblades against multiple foes are used in slow, deliberate, sweeping movements, the kinds that an expectant super-reflexed and super speed soldier can dodge and aren't targeted at one person. Then once they get inside the range of the Blade, it becomes a hindrance and their clubs more useful. I think you might be over estimating Shardbearers because they are awesome against depowered people, but Pewter is basically Stormlight!

I think, let's say, 5 Pewterarms would easily wipe out Shardbearers if they targeted them and they weren't Adolin

Edited April 4, 2016 by IndigoAjah

Stormgate · April 4, 2016

Having worn kevlar, lots of it, this wouldn't work. Plate armour allows mobility because the solid plates are sectioned. Kevlar only works because it is a huge thick slab, thereby dividing the impact force over a larger area and increasing the force over distance ratio to stop the projectile. The lightweight kevlar vests you see on tv aren't strong enough to stop anything other than a pistol round. Even then they're pushing it.

You could either try to section the kevlar, which would reduce its effectiveness to almost zero, or pile on standard plates to give total coverage and be unable to move properly. In the first case its a waste of time and in the second you'd lose all benefits to wearing shard plate in the first place. It doesn't matter if you can easily carry the weight, you still wouldn't be able to move.

Kevlar plates are also quite fragile. Dropping one from a standing height is enough to crack it and render the whole plate useless. If you're strong enough it is possible to similarly damage it. Trying to force it to bend at all would break it. They can also only take three or four hits before they give way regardless.

My main argument for shard plate is the mobility it provides. At the range of most modern firefights a shard bearer should be able to close the distance without getting shot at all. In a melee they'd dominate, especially if they had supporting troops.

Shardplate has smaller pieces covering potential chinks in armor. Also, Shardplate is more than armor, it provides a man with more strength, speed, etc. than he normally has.

That said, Shardbows can reportedly crack Shardplate, and it is likely not too wrong to think that they have similar power levels. So, there's that.

Oversleep · April 4, 2016

Pewter is basically Stormlight!

Let's see a pewterarm jump down into a chasm and survive.

IndigoAjah · April 4, 2016

Well, they might, firstly, for all we know

And that doesn't take away from its similarity to Stormlight in speed and strength, as I've said elsewhere Stormlight is much better re healing than Pewter, but against a Shardbearer healing is of little relevance and toughness is not that relevant either - the tactic is be fast and nimble enough to avoid the Blade, then bash the Plate to pieces with 5 of you strong enough to crack it and strong enough to at least contend in a raw strength for long enough to get the rest of your blows in

Stormgate · April 4, 2016

Let's see a pewterarm jump down into a chasm and survive.

Let's put that differently: Stormlight is a souped-up version of pewter.

Pathfinder · April 4, 2016

Kal dropped down into a chasm, breaking his legs and them healing due to stormlight. Vin dropped plenty of times great distances where he legs screamed in pain, but did not snap. And even if they did, the pewter arm could drag himself around till they set/healed.

edit: and since i had to do this in another thread on a similar topic matter, if you give me like 20 minutes or so, I can pull up the scenes for each. Just a bit swamped at the moment.

Edited April 4, 2016 by Pathfinder

natc · April 5, 2016

Let's put that differently: Stormlight is a souped-up version of pewter.

Unless you're low on the stuff

Jimmy · April 5, 2016

So first, I am noticing this topic is starting to merge with the other topic in many ways with the war between roshar and scadrial. Because we went from could shardplate stand up against bullets, to then the practically of applying it to battle. So if this post digresses I apologize.

No worries, if i assumed allomantic pewter in error when we are discussing feruchemical then I apologize. Otherwise allomantic pewter gives strength, speed, dexterity, balance, endurance, durability, and healing. Also just to be clear (not that you implied this, but I always like to cover my bases), when I reply to your comments regarding battle, it is not to say you are wrong. You are clearly knowledgeable in the field and I defer to such knowledge. What I love about Sanderson's books is that he comes up with clever and unique uses for powers. So my replies are more a mental exercise to think, "well if I was a commanding officer, and my troops were put into these situations with this gear, how would I maximize these allomantic resources?". So actually last night I thought of a funny/awesome team. Have a pewter arm, and a coin shot. As the thug pulls the trigger on the heavy machine gun, the coin shot pushes on the bullet casings flying out. So you effectively double the output with the same amount of ammunition. So this also goes to show my level of practical knowledge vs yours in this subject. I should have more used the term modern warfare vs trench or medieval warfare. Trench or medieval warfare would involve wide open areas of staging combat, or use of the environment (forests). Modern warfare, or at least my impression of modern warfare is much more scaled down. You have platoons of a group of men vs a legion. The weapons employed allow for much more accomplished with much less people. So assuming modern warfare where we are discussing a fire team (3 to 4 men), a squad (8 to 12) or a platoon 15 - 30) my responses to your points would change. So first regarding water/food. You could have in a fire team, one pewter arm machine gunner, a coin shot, a tin eye sniper, and a bronze seeker. Those would be for quick small engagements. Perhaps guerilla warfare with the shardbearer. Now for a squad that might do extended engagements, you could increase the number of pewter arms, where two or three would be heavy machine gunners, while 1 or 2 would have standard weapon distribution but be the "mules" for the other pewter arms by being loaded up with food and water for them. Everyone else would carry their own food or water as per normal, so everything would not overly weigh those pewter arms down. The rest of the platoon could have all sorts of combos. Could still have a tin eye sniper coupled with the bronze seeker, while the coin shots lay down covering fire with the heavy machine gun pewter arms.

Cheers mate, I enjoy a good argument and never thought to take offence even if it had been implied. Which is wasn't, so all good. Same goes in return.

Too many points to answer without starting a new topic. A copper mind would be better for a marksman because, unless you're blind, vision doesn't count for that much. Its all about maths at range.

Machine guns naturally fire in a pattern. The extra coin shot wouldn't make any difference compared to a rifle. The rifles are there to keep the enemy off the guns, sticking them close enough to coin shot would just make them even more of a target to the enemy without providing much more firepower. You'd also have to have some amazingly awesome reflexes to get all those casings coming out and aim them all properly. They all spit out differently.

The main problem with water is that it takes up room and its heavy. Depending on the heat and workload, eight litres will last one and three days for one man. Give or take. In the tropics you can go through that much in a single morning and still be thirsty. Given that a normal load for a light infantryman is about 50 kilograms, that extra 8-16 is really going to hurt if he's carrying it for someone else.

Coming back to topic though, it all depends on numbers. One on one I think a shard bearer should take it. One against ten the soldiers should win. Ten against ten it goes back to the shards. Any larger numbers become a bit silly because who has that many shard bearers?

Pathfinder · April 5, 2016

Cheers mate, I enjoy a good argument and never thought to take offence even if it had been implied. Which is wasn't, so all good. Same goes in return.

Too many points to answer without starting a new topic. A copper mind would be better for a marksman because, unless you're blind, vision doesn't count for that much. Its all about maths at range.

Machine guns naturally fire in a pattern. The extra coin shot wouldn't make any difference compared to a rifle. The rifles are there to keep the enemy off the guns, sticking them close enough to coin shot would just make them even more of a target to the enemy without providing much more firepower. You'd also have to have some amazingly awesome reflexes to get all those casings coming out and aim them all properly. They all spit out differently.

The main problem with water is that it takes up room and its heavy. Depending on the heat and workload, eight litres will last one and three days for one man. Give or take. In the tropics you can go through that much in a single morning and still be thirsty. Given that a normal load for a light infantryman is about 50 kilograms, that extra 8-16 is really going to hurt if he's carrying it for someone else.

Coming back to topic though, it all depends on numbers. One on one I think a shard bearer should take it. One against ten the soldiers should win. Ten against ten it goes back to the shards. Any larger numbers become a bit silly because who has that many shard bearers?

Good i am glad

Sorry to digress, but just to respond to your points. Tin increases all of your senses. So you could literally feel the tiniest of air disturbance to judge bullet trajectory with wind resistance. You would be able to spot the enemies far before they see you, all without the tell tale glint or glare of a scope. And anyone trained can do the maths, tin would just augment the training. With steel and iron you do not have to "see" or theoretically have reflexes to shoot the bullet casings. It is not a muscle you are using. It is an effort of will. It is commented in the book how Vin could fly pushing on steel lines without fully seeing them or consciously focusing on them. It is built into the magic to help the user. So I would see shooting off the bullet casings as easier than blinking, and takes even less physical effort. Pewter burners need less water and food while they burn, hence the endurance. Their bodies plain and simple in every way can go longer with less than everyone else. I think you are underestimating what a pewter burner can carry with minimal effort

Back to topic, I agree. Guns are far more prevalent, and can be mass produced, so more can be fielded to shoot down a shardbearer.

IndigoAjah · April 5, 2016

Good i am glad

Sorry to digress, but just to respond to your points. Tin increases all of your senses. So you could literally feel the tiniest of air disturbance to judge bullet trajectory with wind resistance. You would be able to spot the enemies far before they see you, all without the tell tale glint or glare of a scope. And anyone trained can do the maths, tin would just augment the training. With steel and iron you do not have to "see" or theoretically have reflexes to shoot the bullet casings. It is not a muscle you are using. It is an effort of will. It is commented in the book how Vin could fly pushing on steel lines without fully seeing them or consciously focusing on them. It is built into the magic to help the user. So I would see shooting off the bullet casings as easier than blinking, and takes even less physical effort. Pewter burners need less water and food while they burn, hence the endurance. Their bodies plain and simple in every way can go longer with less than everyone else. I think you are underestimating what a pewter burner can carry with minimal effort

Back to topic, I agree. Guns are far more prevalent, and can be mass produced, so more can be fielded to shoot down a shardbearer.

Just as an aside, Vin is special though, in terms of how quickly she learns and naturally uses all Allomantic skills. Actually I think her greatest gift (apart from maybe selflessness or devotion) is intuition - not only with her skills but at brilliantly making leaps to calculate Indy Ploys and defeat unbeatable opponents. Sometimes her intuition is wrong, but the number of times she works out how something works from first principles is incredible

Pathfinder · April 5, 2016

Just as an aside, Vin is special though, in terms of how quickly she learns and naturally uses all Allomantic skills. Actually I think her greatest gift (apart from maybe selflessness or devotion) is intuition - not only with her skills but at brilliantly making leaps to calculate Indy Ploys and defeat unbeatable opponents. Sometimes her intuition is wrong, but the number of times she works out how something works from first principles is incredible

Something funny I just realized. The two things we want to compare most (allomancers and shardbearers capabilities), are exhibited most by two characters mentioned as unique for their group. Vin and Dalinar.

Rich2244 · April 15, 2016

If we were to simply think of how mistborn (not just mistings) are regarded compared to shardbearers, they aren't even comparable, nobles assume that a mistborn is killed by archers getting lucky and aren't surprised, when Kaladin kills the shardbearer in WoK its described as being the first time in a century, people are literally horrified that it could happen. Shardbearers aren't even in the same league as Allomancers, there is also a WoB that an experienced pewter user flaring is several times as strong as a normal man, that doesn't even come close to what shardbearers can do.

Voidus · April 15, 2016

If we were to simply think of how mistborn (not just mistings) are regarded compared to shardbearers, they aren't even comparable, nobles assume that a mistborn is killed by archers getting lucky and aren't surprised, when Kaladin kills the shardbearer in WoK its described as being the first time in a century, people are literally horrified that it could happen. Shardbearers aren't even in the same league as Allomancers, there is also a WoB that an experienced pewter user flaring is several times as strong as a normal man, that doesn't even come close to what shardbearers can do.

They're more fragile, due to not wearing armour, not weaker. Pewter is about on par with what Shardbearer feats are capable of, Mistborn have far and away superior mobility and range and a Mistborn using Atium would absolutely dominate a Shardbearer.

Jondesu · April 16, 2016

They're more fragile, due to not wearing armour, not weaker. Pewter is about on par with what Shardbearer feats are capable of, Mistborn have far and away superior mobility and range and a Mistborn using Atium would absolutely dominate a Shardbearer.

I'm sorry, I see this a lot, and I just don't get it. A Mistborn with atium would be able to survive against a Shardblade longer than otherwise, but actually delivering a killing blow would be very tough. The same fragility means they don't have a lot of options against armor, especially since there are very few armored targets they would have ever faced beyond leather and wooden shields. Sure, a Mistborn wouldn't get destroyed by a Shardbearer quickly either, and could easily escape, but destroy the Shardbearer (especially if they're a Radiant, but even if not)? Not easily.

jW

Voidus · April 16, 2016

I'm sorry, I see this a lot, and I just don't get it. A Mistborn with atium would be able to survive against a Shardblade longer than otherwise, but actually delivering a killing blow would be very tough. The same fragility means they don't have a lot of options against armor, especially since there are very few armored targets they would have ever faced beyond leather and wooden shields. Sure, a Mistborn wouldn't get destroyed by a Shardbearer quickly either, and could easily escape, but destroy the Shardbearer (especially if they're a Radiant, but even if not)? Not easily.

jW

Move to one side, hold out knife, Shardbearer steps perfectly into that knife with their open faceplate, stabbing them in the eye. Profit. (By approximately one set of Shards)

Duralumin and either pewter or steel would also allow a Mistborn to punch through (or even straight up affect) Shardplate pretty easily.

Oversleep · April 16, 2016

Well, without atium or electrum I don't see many chances to win against atium burner. Atium is a gamebreaker.

IndigoAjah · April 16, 2016

So, Kaladin managed to knife a Shardbearer in the face with a spearhead and subconscious minimal use of Stormlight. A Mistborn who can see the Shardbearer's every move and thus dodge every blow with ease, Atium being something only tricks from Vin, arguably the intuitive and inventive killer in the Cosmere, have ever beaten, then step inside and stab exactly where you know his face will be, with the ability to use super speed and reflexes from Pewter, and someone thinks they won't dominate a Shardbearer when using Atium?

The Shardbearer is also obvious, with obvious armour and an obvious weak point and a wacking great obvious sword that obviously you shouldn't be hit by. The Mistborn looks like a person until they start magicking and even if the Shardbearer thinks they might be special, they can't tell the Mistborn has Atium until they're dead. In about 3 seconds, I'd guess.

We've seen how this kill would occur! The outcome is pretty obvious to me. Shardbearers are so overrated, and Atium is very OP.

Also, we should probably get back to the actual topic

Edited April 16, 2016 by IndigoAjah

Voidus · April 16, 2016

Yeah there is a reason it had to be so limited in Mistborn, otherwise Mistings and regular soldiers would be practically useless. I mean we saw how an army of just regular Seers fares against full on Koloss with Atium, add in all the other Mistborn powers and it's just insanely OP. The only way to really pull off a win is to either be Vin or else overwhelm them to checkmate them with an inescapable situation but a lone Shardbearer can't do that.

Right. Yes, back on topic. Bullets win against Shardplate.

Jondesu · April 16, 2016

Yeah there is a reason it had to be so limited in Mistborn, otherwise Mistings and regular soldiers would be practically useless. I mean we saw how an army of just regular Seers fares against full on Koloss with Atium, add in all the other Mistborn powers and it's just insanely OP. The only way to really pull off a win is to either be Vin or else overwhelm them to checkmate them with an inescapable situation but a lone Shardbearer can't do that.

Right. Yes, back on topic. Bullets win against Shardplate.

Remember, the only reason they were so effective was that they had an insanely large supply of atium and were swallowing all they could fit in their stomachs, basically. Usually a Mistborn had maybe a minute of Atium available to them, often less.

As to bullets against Shardplate, I'm still suspecting they would only prove somewhat effective, but I'm sure something like a machine gun would be a decent option. Most pistols wouldn't get through it without repeated hits in the same place, I'd bet, if nothing else due to the magical mechanics in place that seem to prevent anything going through and killing in one blow, with the only exception being Szeth driving the highly invested Honorblade through, using multiple lashings to achieve that. We don't even know if the same trick would work with a Shardblade instead.

jW

Shardplate against bullets?

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