Voidus Posted April 20, 2016 Posted April 20, 2016 I love the Mistborn trilogy the most out of Sanderson's books, but even I can admit a mistborn deflecting a high caliber machine gun that is typically on top of a tank is a stretch. Wax deflecting regular bullets still has a chance to graze or hit him. And if the mistborn used duralumin to deflect the bullets, only a portion of the bullets would be deflected, as the machine gunner would still have a whole strip of bullets to continue laying down cover fire. If the mistborn was stealthy, then yes, totally could take out a tank. But one on one, running/jumping towards it? Not so sure on that. I meant deflecting a main shell, not machine gun fire. But yeah they could probably deflect those as well, they're far less accurate so the ability to nudge them to one side is far higher than with a rifle aimed directly at you. I don't think that would work without duraluminum and a lot of skill. Tanks are made to resist powerful explosives, and regular steelpushing doens't seem to be able to generate that much energy in a single burst without duraluminum. They generate enough to leap ontop of things pretty regularly. And you wouldn't use regular explosives, you'd use anti-armour weapons of some kind but even regular explosives could throw the tracks off enough to severely hinder it.
Pathfinder Posted April 20, 2016 Posted April 20, 2016 I meant deflecting a main shell, not machine gun fire. But yeah they could probably deflect those as well, they're far less accurate so the ability to nudge them to one side is far higher than with a rifle aimed directly at you. They generate enough to leap ontop of things pretty regularly. And you wouldn't use regular explosives, you'd use anti-armour weapons of some kind but even regular explosives could throw the tracks off enough to severely hinder it. Again I have to disagree. Those are far more powerful in force and number than the pistols of "the ole west". Wax's bubble deflects enough to inch it slightly to the side. The firepower of a tanks's machine gun is far stronger. A standard modern bullet goes 1,126 ft/s. A bullet from a M85 machine gun goes 2,887 ft/s. Two and a half times faster. Please refer to the wiki link below: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M85_machine_gun
Voidus Posted April 20, 2016 Posted April 20, 2016 Again I have to disagree. Those are far more powerful in force and number than the pistols of "the ole west". Wax's bubble deflects enough to inch it slightly to the side. The firepower of a tanks's machine gun is far stronger. A standard modern bullet goes 1,126 ft/s. A bullet from a M85 machine gun goes 2,887 ft/s. Two and a half times faster. Please refer to the wiki link below: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M85_machine_gun Yes but Wax deflects a bullet going straight on, deflecting a bullet already fired at an angle is pretty easy actually, you just need to apply enough force for the horizontal translation, it doesn't matter what force the bullet is already fired at since you're not opposing that force just shifting it. And the weight of a person is more than enough to nudge a bullet like that to the side.
Pathfinder Posted April 20, 2016 Posted April 20, 2016 Yes but Wax deflects a bullet going straight on, deflecting a bullet already fired at an angle is pretty easy actually, you just need to apply enough force for the horizontal translation, it doesn't matter what force the bullet is already fired at since you're not opposing that force just shifting it. And the weight of a person is more than enough to nudge a bullet like that to the side. It is easier than stopping it cold, but does not mean it is easy period. Another website (though admittedly I have not checked it for accuracy yet), has stated that modern weaponry has as least tripled the speed of bullets when compared to "the ole west". This is not a negligible matter. But I see you are set in your thinking so I will not continue to berate the point.
IndigoAjah he/him Posted April 20, 2016 Posted April 20, 2016 I agree that a Mistborn would need a fair amount of Atium plus other metals and/or tricks and stealth and luck to beat a tank. A skilled enough Mistborn could fire a coin through a visor, but they'd have to be near level: Waxillium of aiming to manage it
Voidus Posted April 21, 2016 Posted April 21, 2016 It is easier than stopping it cold, but does not mean it is easy period. Another website (though admittedly I have not checked it for accuracy yet), has stated that modern weaponry has as least tripled the speed of bullets when compared to "the ole west". This is not a negligible matter. But I see you are set in your thinking so I will not continue to berate the point. Yes but you only need to move it a few inches to the side, it needs to travel a few hundred meters to hit you, even assuming the bullet is very heavy (Say a kg to be extreme) the acceleration is going to be about 980m/s/s Your example gave about 800 m/s as the speed of the bullet (give or take) Say the Allomancer can start pushing at around 80 meters that gives about 1/10 of a second to push it out the way, in that time the force on the bullet would have accelerated it to an average speed of 49m/s which would move it about 5 meters out of the way during that time. Now that would only be if all the Allomancers force was applied to lateral motion, which it wouldn't be, but given that most bullets are around a hundred times lighter than that, I'm hoping I don't need to do a bunch of trig to explain how this could work.
Yata he/him Posted April 21, 2016 Posted April 21, 2016 (edited) I have to admit I didn't read the whole post. But a bullet very heavy and fast (a tank's buller for example) will push away (out of shot line) the Allomancer (if it doesn't go perfectly long his Steelline) if He tried to push on it. In the end this mean dodge the bullet. Edited April 21, 2016 by Yata
Shardbearer he/him Posted April 21, 2016 Posted April 21, 2016 Going back to the original question... Shardplate as we know it now vs. bullets I think the advantage goes to the bullets. However, the primary theory regarding Shardplate is that it is made of spren. This means that Shardplate will probably adapt as the technology on Roshar progresses. If Roshar ever develops guns or projectile fabrial weapons, I see Shardplate evolving to handle the new styles of combat and warfare. And if we're talking Shardplate vs Scadrian guns, we're still a way from FTL. So Roshar still has some time to catch up technologically. Also, regarding the atium rabit trail this thread took earlier... I think Brandon was aware of Atium's potential to be way OP in the cosmere. Remember that investiture resists influence by other investiture. So I think shardplate and other forms of investiture can block atium shadows. 2
Yata he/him Posted April 21, 2016 Posted April 21, 2016 I think Brandon was aware of Atium's potential to be way OP in the cosmere. Remember that investiture resists influence by other investiture. So I think shardplate and other forms of investiture can block atium shadows. I am unsure about this. Because we aren't sure if the Atium "targets" the Shardbearer (or any other visible being) or simply give to you a look on the Spiritual. In the last case it's worhless to be more Invested because in the end you aren't a factor. You may use the Alluminium as counter example, but we don't know what in the Alluminium give it its Anti-Investiture propriety and therefore it's possible that its "oddly ability" is caused by some Realmatic Anomaly that mask him to the Atium (for example the famous theory of Alluminium's Spiritual-Emptyness)
Magestar he/him Posted April 21, 2016 Posted April 21, 2016 (edited) I believe that the original question was how well would Shardplate stand up to bullets. There are a few other questions you have to ask to make this question valid. 1) Shardplate is made out of Spren. (Supposedly.) So, what is a comparable as far as density/durability/hardness goes? (I understand that there would have to be a different comparison for each thing.) 2) What kind of bullets? From What kind of Gun? 3) Finally, how does shard plate react to things of that speed hitting it? We have rarely seen anything nearly as fast as a bullet hitting shard plate. Would it absorb the impact, or, due to its lightness, send the wearer flying? Another interesting question, which is a bit off topic; Is shardplate magnetic? Because then a coinshot would totally have an advantage. Edited April 21, 2016 by Magestar
Shardbearer he/him Posted April 21, 2016 Posted April 21, 2016 Pushing and pulling metals has nothing to do with magnetism. You can manipulate even non-magnetic metals this way. And shardplate would resist the investiture of the pushes and pulls.
Voidus Posted April 21, 2016 Posted April 21, 2016 I am unsure about this. Because we aren't sure if the Atium "targets" the Shardbearer (or any other visible being) or simply give to you a look on the Spiritual. In the last case it's worhless to be more Invested because in the end you aren't a factor. You may use the Alluminium as counter example, but we don't know what in the Alluminium give it its Anti-Investiture propriety and therefore it's possible that its "oddly ability" is caused by some Realmatic Anomaly that mask him to the Atium (for example the famous theory of Alluminium's Spiritual-Emptyness) Yeah given that a simple Duralumin Atium burn was enough to see through the actions of the Shards themselves I'd say that it's probably not going to be hugely affected by Investiture resistance.
Pathfinder Posted April 22, 2016 Posted April 22, 2016 (edited) So I am going to post this once, not that the quotes will probably matter but I will attempt it anyway: Alloy of Law page 6 Deflected by his steel bubble, the bullet zipped past his ear. Another inch to the right, and he'd have gotten it in the forehead - steel bubble or no. Alloy of Law page 25 The street thug jerked his rifle toward Wax and fired. The steel bubble barely deflected it, and the bullet tugged through the fabric of Wax's coat, just missing his ribs. Alloy of Law page 26 Bullets pierced the mists all around him. Steel bubble or not, he should have fallen to one of them. It was pure luck that saved his life as he landed on another roof and rolled to a stop, prone, protected from the gunfire by a parapet wall. Alloy of Law page 99 He began gently Pushing away from himself in the way that created a steel bubble of force to interfere with bullets. It wouldn't protect him completely, but it would help. So the steel bubble is not a solid fixed plane in which to deflect everything coming at it. It is a slight pressure when the bullet comes into range that distorts the trajectory. Otherwise as shown, it wouldn't matter how many bullets were flying nor what caliber. But as you all can see from the quotes the amount of bullets flying, and the caliber (gun vs rifle) does show to matter. Now take an M85 machine gun, which is both a far higher caliber, as well as lays down far more bullets per second and the mistborn will get hit. The mistborn cannot use duralumin in response, as the machine gun will be continually be laying down fire. So the first 10 rounds shot off would be thrown back, to which will be followed up by the other 90 rounds that cannot be stopped as the mistborn drained their steel with the push. edit: Found even more quotes: Shadows of Self page 160 With the bubble on, his Allomantic instincts seached out any bits of metal moving quickly toward him, and would push on those with increasing force as they drew closer. He was getting better and better at that. Standing and letting Darriance shoot at his chest while wearing about twelve inches of padding and armor had helped. He couldn't dodge bullets, but the bubble helped. Shadows of Self page 181 Wax's steel bubble deflected a number of the shots, bending them away to cut empty air. The bullets trailed streaks in the mist. One, however, clipped him on the arm Bands of Mourning page 88 He set up his steel bubble, a faint Push away from himself in all directions that excluded his own weapons. It was far from perfect - he'd been shot several times while using it - but it did help. Edited April 22, 2016 by Pathfinder 3
Voidus Posted April 22, 2016 Posted April 22, 2016 So the steel bubble is not a solid fixed plane in which to deflect everything coming at it. It is a slight pressure when the bullet comes into range that distorts the trajectory. Otherwise as shown, it wouldn't matter how many bullets were flying nor what caliber. But as you all can see from the quotes the amount of bullets flying, and the caliber (gun vs rifle) does show to matter. Now take an M85 machine gun, which is both a far higher caliber, as well as lays down far more bullets per second and the mistborn will get hit. The mistborn cannot use duralumin in response, as the machine gun will be continually be laying down fire. So the first 10 rounds shot off would be thrown back, to which will be followed up by the other 90 rounds that cannot be stopped as the mistborn drained their steel with the push. Wax only uses a faint push because he's in an urban environment, otherwise he'd be sending cutlery flying all the time. We're talking about taking a tank in a head on fight, unless the tank caught you by surprise you'd be using far stronger pushes. Also, Wax is usually against riflemen, deliberately aiming at him, which are far, far more accurate than machine-gun fire at a distance.
Pathfinder Posted April 23, 2016 Posted April 23, 2016 Wax only uses a faint push because he's in an urban environment, otherwise he'd be sending cutlery flying all the time. We're talking about taking a tank in a head on fight, unless the tank caught you by surprise you'd be using far stronger pushes. Also, Wax is usually against riflemen, deliberately aiming at him, which are far, far more accurate than machine-gun fire at a distance. Which is why you can see plenty of other quotes that cite his entire history as well as explain the pressure of the push increases as the bullet gets closer which demonstrates the mechanic. As I have said twice now, it is not a hard defined plane that causes the "deflection". It is the equivalency of person A trying to shove person B over onto their back. If person B squares their feet, and directs person A's shove to the side, they remain standing. But if multiple people push from multiple directions in varying types of strength, person B will be pushed over. But I shouldn't even have to explain further. Numerous quotes I posted say it all. Over his entire career (that includes out in the Roughs, and anywhere else he has gone), he has been shot despite the speed bubble. But once again I have a feeling what I have shown in references to the source material has fallen on deaf ears. I have made my case. I am good. 1
Voidus Posted April 23, 2016 Posted April 23, 2016 Which is why you can see plenty of other quotes that cite his entire history as well as explain the pressure of the push increases as the bullet gets closer which demonstrates the mechanic. As I have said twice now, it is not a hard defined plane that causes the "deflection". It is the equivalency of person A trying to shove person B over onto their back. If person B squares their feet, and directs person A's shove to the side, they remain standing. But if multiple people push from multiple directions in varying types of strength, person B will be pushed over. But I shouldn't even have to explain further. Numerous quotes I posted say it all. Over his entire career (that includes out in the Roughs, and anywhere else he has gone), he has been shot despite the speed bubble. But once again I have a feeling what I have shown in references to the source material has fallen on deaf ears. I have made my case. I am good. In his entire history he's never been against a machine gun or had a distance of several hundred meters and nothing else around for him to adversely affect. And even given all those constraints it still works pretty darn well most of the time. So now the bullets are as heavy as people? I thought I was being generous in supposing they were 1kg and you want to say they should weigh 50? Otherwise there's not much of a way for them to push back that hard and even if they do a Mistborn can use anchors. Please stop the condescending tone too, I get that you think your point is valid and that I'm ignoring it but here's the thing: From my perspective you're doing exactly the same thing. I gave you some pretty solid maths that you have yet to refute, you provided plenty of references sure but to my eyes I've already addressed them. Wax uses a steel bubble that is small in size and weak in force, yes it gets stronger as the bullet gets closer but that's not a good thing, only using your full force once it's near you is not going to give you enough time to actually deflect it. A Mistborn pushing with full strength the entire time it is in range will cause a much greater shift in position. If you really want I can address each quote individually but I don't think there's any that prove any flaws in my reasoning, if you think there are then I'm happy to hear them, just try to be a bit less aggressive about it. I'm not trying to steal a child, I'm just stating the facts as I see them, this isn't a fight or some achievement or anything, no one is winning or losing, we're both just trying to find out the answer to a question that is as yet unresolved.
Oversleep Posted April 23, 2016 Posted April 23, 2016 Anyway, the force needed to stop the bullet to a halt is equal or lower than the recoil the shooter feels (without any recoil-diminishing mechanisms - guns aren't my thing). From there it's only calculating the possible fire rate and how many shooters there are. And the reaction speed - the faster the bullets become the harder it will be to Push them.The moment we start talking about heavier machine guns the Mistborn starts getting a hard time.Remind me please, why are we talking about Mistborn vs guns? I thought the topic is Shardplate vs bullets.
DreamEternal Posted April 23, 2016 Posted April 23, 2016 (edited) Remind me please, why are we talking about Mistborn vs guns? I thought the topic is Shardplate vs bullets. Because Voidus thinks mistborn can easily destroy tanks, I think. Edited April 23, 2016 by DreamEternal
Jondesu he/him Posted April 23, 2016 Posted April 23, 2016 Because Voidus thinks mistborn can easily destroy tanks, I think. Which the weight issue alone makes incredibly difficult. Keeping Shaw was destroyed only because Vin used the mists, Duralumin, and was in the middle, so she couldn't be thrown backward. A tank wouldn't be moved by a Mistborn without tons of stored weight (literally). jW
DreamEternal Posted April 23, 2016 Posted April 23, 2016 (edited) Duraluminun could do it, with the proper anchors, but I believe it'd be much trickier than Voidus implies. Edited April 23, 2016 by DreamEternal
IndigoAjah he/him Posted April 23, 2016 Posted April 23, 2016 Big anchor needed for a tank. Likely, another tank
Jimmy he/him Posted April 24, 2016 Posted April 24, 2016 (edited) Wax only uses a faint push because he's in an urban environment, otherwise he'd be sending cutlery flying all the time. We're talking about taking a tank in a head on fight, unless the tank caught you by surprise you'd be using far stronger pushes. Also, Wax is usually against riflemen, deliberately aiming at him, which are far, far more accurate than machine-gun fire at a distance. Machine guns are more accurate than rifles. If a tank can see you, it can kill you. Shard plate or no, flying or not, speed doesn't matter and magic won't do anything to deflect, stop or even irritate a round from the main gun. The only foresight that matters is if you had enough to avoid annoying the tank. You either need another tank, preferably two, or grunts who know what they're doing. Edited April 24, 2016 by Jimmy
Voidus Posted April 24, 2016 Posted April 24, 2016 Duraluminun could do it, with the proper anchors, but I believe it'd be much trickier than Voidus implies. I wasn't implying or suggesting that a Mistborn could flip a tank, they could destroy one pretty easily though, they're a small extremely mobile target experienced in espionage. Duralumin push yourself onto the tank, land with some pewter, plant explosives, jump away again before they know what's happened, blow up tank. Machine guns are more accurate than rifles. If a tank can see you, it can kill you. Shard plate or no, flying or not, speed doesn't matter and magic won't do anything to deflect, stop or even irritate a round from the main gun. The only foresight that matters is if you had enough to avoid annoying the tank. You either need another tank, preferably two, or grunts who know what they're doing. Depends on who's using it but generally not, no. Speed, flying and magic all do matter and can work, case in point: they do on a pretty regular basis. Magic wont? Well that depends on the magic. Balefire would, AonDor would, Soulcasting would, a Shard would, powerful enough Allomancy would. Foresight combined with speed can beat pretty much anything, Mistborn have both and mobility in spades.
Charlie.x.3000 Posted April 24, 2016 Posted April 24, 2016 (edited) Should this be moved to the Cosmere Theories forum? I don't see and spoiler tags being used. Edited April 24, 2016 by Charlie.x.3000
Voidus Posted April 24, 2016 Posted April 24, 2016 Should this be moved to the Cosmere Theories forum? I don't see and spoiler tags being used. Not many actual spoilers being discussed and it has had a bit of crossover with another thread, but we should probably just stop going off on tangents
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