theory Nightblood Surges

[BrightVoid he/him]

We see that with a Nahel Bond, KR use a set of surges based on which spren they are bonded to.  Since Nightblood simply absorbs investiture, do we have any reason to believe that it does not have access to all of Honor’s surges?  Or even better, all of the magic systems present on Roshar?

[baby he/him]

Because that's not how it works? I've seen it as him basically absorbing the pure investiture, basically with breaths. Don't think any of what he steals is retrievable, usuable, or identifiable.

[Master_Moridin he/him]

Here's a WoB on what Nightblood can do while consuming Investiture
 

Question
How much more powerful is Nightblood than a a regular Shardblade?

Brandon Sanderson
I haven't actually quantified that in my own mind so can't give an accurate comparison at this point. I will say that when he is fully consuming Investiture he can do some really freaky things.

Footnote
In the past Brandon has described Nightblood as being "magnitudes more invested than a shardblade".
(source)

[Samaldin he/him]

Personally i think Nightblood won´t grant any surges, but i wouldn´t be surprised if it enabled some completly new of magic. Nightblood was an attempt to make a shardblade, but i´m wondering if Vasher knew of the connection between spren and shardblades and if he knew of honorblades.

[Obi-WanLebowski]

I haven't dug too deep into this theory so I doubt it holds much credence, but I can't think of anything in the Cosmere that screams "Voidbringer" more than Nightblood.

[ChickenPlague he/him]

I haven't dug too deep into this theory so I doubt it holds much credence, but I can't think of anything in the Cosmere that screams "Voidbringer" more than Nightblood.

Not even a Voidbringer?

[Obi-WanLebowski]

Not even a Voidbringer?

Has anything actually been verified as a Voidbringer yet?

[CaptainRyan he/him]

 

 

I haven't dug too deep into this theory so I doubt it holds much credence, but I can't think of anything in the Cosmere that screams "Voidbringer" more than Nightblood.

 

Has anything actually been verified as a Voidbringer yet?

 

I guess that depends on how strongly you are using the word verified.

 

On the other hand, let's say, for the sake of the argument, that Nightblood is what "voidbringer" refers to. As far as we know, Nightblood is unique. Also, as far as we know, Nightblood was created, and stayed, on Nalthis for most of its life. 

 

How could every Desolation have involved Nightblood? How could Nightblood, single-swordedly, pose a challenge for 10 Heralds, their assorted Knights Radiant and the combined armies of Roshar? How did Nightblood keep moving back and forth between Nalthis and Roshar? What are voidspren (Odium's spren) and how do they relate to Desolations if Voidbringers are actually just Nightblood?

 

I, personally, do not think Nightblood == the Voidbringers is a theory that would hold up under scrutiny but I am always willing to listen. If you have any further thoughts on why you think this connection exists then please share them with us.

[Yata he/him]

Probably Nightblood on Roshar would develop some power unrealated by the Surges.. Something more Awekening (or Endowment) related.

 

In the same way I think the Seon would develp (on Roshar) some AonDor relate effect (maybe they may actuallizate their Aon to give its effect) much like be used as a "bridge" to performe Selish Magic with Stormlight.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Yata

[kaellok he/him]

Nightblood isn't of Honor, Cultivation, or Odium, so it's impossible for Nightblood to grant any surges.  

 

Warbreaker spoilers

Nightblood was made using Breaths from Nalthis, which is a magic system fueled by Endowment.  Also, we've seen someone Bond with Nightblood who did not get any powers resembling Surges.  It's possible that something different will happen on a different world, but WoB I'm too lazy to find suggest that it would be a very different thing than being a Surgebinder.

[Samaldin he/him]

I´m interested if someone who bonded nightblood could take in stormlight, if not the usage of Nightblood would be pretty short.

[KidWayne he/him]

What exactly constitutes a "bond" with Nightblood? I think this concept is irrelevant since we see Vasher and Vivena interacting with Nightblood - without mention of a bond - in a way that would probably require a nahel bond on Roshar. We also see Paalm communicating in a similar way with Wax in SoS again without any sort of formal bond.

Nightblood is a "type whatever biochromatic construct." As such, Nightblood is essentially an object granted sentience via investiture. The breath/investiture used by Vasher and his scholarly crew in Nightblood's creation allowed them to connect some ideal in the spiritual realm to an object in the physical realm. So, Nightblood is different from spren who are simply cognitive realm entities that have a limited ability to manifest in the physical realm. For spren, the nahel bond is essential to manifest themselves in the physical realm for any but the most temporary of durations. Nightblood needs no such bond to exist and remain in the physical realm.

In my mind, Nightblood is more analogous to a non-surgebinder (with access to investiture via an honor blade) than he/it is to a spren. If you disagree, then please explain why/how - in existential terms - Nightblood is any different from a Returned on Nalthis who was somehow transmuted into a sword.

So what can Nightblood do?

I think Nightblood's power is its larkin-like ability to consume the investiture of others. In other words, I think Nightblood's power will be in its ability to neutralize surgebinders.

I would be curious to know whether Nightblood's ability to consume investiture is only effective magic systems that use external sources of investiture (e.g. surgebinding, awakening, sand mastery) or if it would also somehow affect magic systems that use innate and/or form-based investiture (e.g. feruchemy, allomancy, aon dor). In other words, can Nightblood feed off the Dor itself? What would happen if Szeth pulled Nightblood during a visit to Scardial on a misty night, would the sword consume the mists?

TL;DR → Nightblood = larkin sword = weaponized kryptonite for all the supermen & superwomen of Roshar (and possibly elsewhere).

[Yata he/him]

What exactly constitutes a "bond" with Nightblood? I think this concept is irrelevant since we see Vasher and Vivena interacting with Nightblood - without mention of a bond - in a way that would probably require a nahel bond on Roshar. We also see Paalm communicating in a similar way with Wax in SoS again without any sort of formal bond.

In Warbreaker Annotation (it's there if I remeber right) it's said that Nightblood make a bond with anyone who unleashed it and survive.

From that moment this person will have no nausea or lust to held Nightblood.

[natc]

By virtue of being an artificial shardblade as well, he/she/it/[pronoun failure] is essentially a splinter-like entity similar to spren, seons, and skaze. Even Brandon calls Nightblood a "robot spren" at one point, IIRC.

[DocHoliday he/him]

The biggest argument against Nightblood being a voidbringer IMO is the similarity between Spren and Awakening Commands.

They are both literally thoughts being animated in the Physical Realm.

Nightblood's Command? Destroy Evil.

You know what, never mind. That Command can be twisted to Odious purposes.

Carry on.

[Master_Moridin he/him]

In Warbreaker Annotation (it's there if I remeber right) it's said that Nightblood make a bond with anyone who unleashed it and survive.

From that moment this person will have no nausea or lust to held Nightblood.

 

Not to mention, the way Nightblood talks to people telepathically involves bonds

 

Question

How is it that Nightblood, who is merely a near-sentient awakened object, was able to read minds, something a Shard like Ruin was unable to do?

Brandon Sanderson

It requires bonding (with the person whose mind is to be read) to read minds.

(source)

[shadowwisp]

There is definitely more to Nightblood than what we have seen in Warbreaker. Nale implies that Szeth would be able to take on 8 Honorblades with just Nightblood. 

A sword that can cut through anything is strong, but without Shardplate I can't see how it could change the tide of any war. Yet apparently that was exactly what happened when Shashara wielded it during the Battle of Twilight Falls. And since Vasher was the one who started the Manywar, he should be accustomed to death and violence but what he saw was apparently too much for even him. 100% sure that we are missing some attribute of Nightblood. 


On a side note. Anyone else wondering what would happen if Szeth tried to block a Shardblade with just the sheath of Nightblood? I'm assuming any sheath strong enough to contain Nightblood would be strong enough to block a Shardblade by itself. 

Edited April 2, 2016 by shadowwisp

[Eki]

I think there are theories that both the Nightblood sheath and those shardblade edge guards used at the training grounds are of aluminium (or some alloy). There's no proof as far as I know, but it makes sense to me.

[DreamEternal]

I think there are theories that both the Nightblood sheath and those shardblade edge guards used at the training grounds are of aluminium (or some alloy). There's no proof as far as I know, but it makes sense to me.

There is proof against the shardblade training sheats being aluminum, because they are described as brittle and they change their shape to fit the shardblade. That is not any kind of aluminum I know, unless it is awakened. For me it sounds more like ancient fabrials.

[Eki]

There is proof against the shardblade training sheats being aluminum, because they are described as brittle and they change their shape to fit the shardblade. That is not any kind of aluminum I know, unless it is awakened. For me it sounds more like ancient fabrials.

Ah, you're right... But fabrials use spren captured in gemstones, right? That doesn't match either...

(I guess soulcasters technically don't use captured spren, but that particular surge seems like a bit of an oddity in general)

[DreamEternal]

Ah, you're right... But fabrials use spren captured in gemstones, right? That doesn't match either...

(I guess soulcasters technically don't use captured spren, but that particular surge seems like a bit of an oddity in general)

In the case of ancient fabrials like soulcasters, regrowth fabrials and oathgates, as far as we know they may work under completely different principles.

[kaellok he/him]

There is definitely more to Nightblood than what we have seen in Warbreaker. Nale implies that Szeth would be able to take on 8 Honorblades with just Nightblood. 

A sword that can cut through anything is strong, but without Shardplate I can't see how it could change the tide of any war. Yet apparently that was exactly what happened when Shashara wielded it during the Battle of Twilight Falls. And since Vasher was the one who started the Manywar, he should be accustomed to death and violence but what he saw was apparently too much for even him. 100% sure that we are missing some attribute of Nightblood. 

When unsheathed, Nightblood consumes Investiture (including that which allows people to live) until it is sheathed again.  This is utterly independent of its ability to cut through anything like a Shardblade.

 

Think of a nuclear weapon that kills only living things.  Now imagine it starting with a small epicenter, and a possibly infinite radius.  This is Nightblood.  This is why Szeth would be able to easily (easily) counter 8 people wielding Honorblades, even if they are fully versed and skilled in their use.  Their lives would be measured in the seconds of Stormlight that they have stored--Stormlight which is considered rare and precious to them (remember how Szeth feels that it's a profane use of Stormlight just to light hallways and corridors?  I can think of zero examples in history where something sacred was also incredibly prevalent.)  Or we can just assume that since they have incredibly mild effects from Highstorms, they also don't get that much in the way of Stormlight, since the Highstorm is the primary source for Stormlight distribution.

[william_wallace]

One thing I have been wondering recently is that when Nightblood was made, maybe they were not actually trying to make/emulate a shard-blade, but were actually trying to create some sort of spren.

If this was the case, perhaps the reason they started with a sword is that they needed something physical to work with when using awakening magic to create the system hack.

While we know Nightblood does not work as well as intended (leaks black smoke and absorbs all investiture in close proximity), perhaps there was actual design intent for the spren/blade to be able to absorb and utilise/repurpose investiture. In this way he could be used as a weapon that in addition to regular sword work, would absorb, steal abilities, and defeat heavily invested objects (e.g. honour blades, entire shards etc),..... and slowly over time reform Adonalsium as a new super spren by collecting shard investiture and merging the different shard intents inside itself.

[marianmi]

Nighblood is like a bonded spren into itself. But I think BS implied there's more investiture in Nighblood than in a spren => Nightblood is more powerful.

The assumption is that Szeth + Nightblood can easily take on honorblades when people are using them. I think a Herald with a Honorblade would be a different thing, because I think the Herald + Honorblade combo work differently with stormlight. Hm, maybe it would be better to say that Szeth + Nightblood is closer to a Herald + Honorblade than to a bonded spren in terms of power (and let's not forget that Ishi thought he could wipe out all KR by himself!).

The point is that Szeth + Nightblood is very efficient vs. KR. The interesting thing is that probably Nightblood can kill spren. The other interesting thing is that, while I see KR losing their stormlight vs Nightblood, I don't see them "attracted" to pick up Nightblood (like people on Naltis) because of their bond with their blade/spren; also it's possible Nightblood can't take the people's "investiture" like on Naltis because people might be "created" differently than on Naltis.

Edited October 11, 2016 by marianmi

[cometaryorbit]

On 4/2/2016 at 0:50 PM, shadowwisp said:

There is definitely more to Nightblood than what we have seen in Warbreaker. Nale implies that Szeth would be able to take on 8 Honorblades with just Nightblood. 

A sword that can cut through anything is strong, but without Shardplate I can't see how it could change the tide of any war. Yet apparently that was exactly what happened when Shashara wielded it during the Battle of Twilight Falls.

Well, Nightblood causes people to kill each other fighting to pick it up, and if they do they usually kill themselves.

Still, the way Nightblood's treated as this ultimate nightmare weapon always bothered me too. Seems like any archer could safely kill the wielder of Nightblood from out of reach, even out of range of the murderous-compulsion effect.

So if Nalan thinks Szeth can fight Honorblade wielders (and assuming he knows what he's doing) it must grant either Surges or some comparably powerful abilities.