theory Nightblood Surges

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Nymeros said:

He's not an honor blade nor designed to mimic one so why we would he grant the same abilities?

Nightblood is a mimic of a mimic of an Honorblade so that seems to be a case for Nightblood possibly giving surgebinding abilities. 

Edited October 16, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[Nymeros]

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Nightblood is a mimic of a mimic of an Honorblade so that seems to be case for Nightblood giving surgebinding abilities. 

No,  it isnt.   What made you think that Vasher was trying to recreate a Rosharan shardblade when creating Nightblood?  Nightblood has nothing in common with spren made shardblades other than that they are powerfully invested weapons. 

[marianmi]

4 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

No,  it isnt.   What made you think that Vasher was trying to recreate a Rosharan shardblade when creating Nightblood?  Nightblood has nothing in common with spren made shardblades other than that they are powerfully invested weapons. 

Yeah, I agree with this. The way they were created was totally different. One was splintered from a shard (or two :D), so the intent was "inherited" from the shard(s), one was heavily invested and given an intent by a human. This is also why Nightblood and spren-blades end up being used in a totally different way - one destroys "evil" but does not know the concept of "evil", so a human mind needs to define (the intent is constantly shaped by the wielder), the other (the spren) has a thorough concept of intent and the human has to match that intent. In other words, with Nightblood the human shapes that actions of the blade, whereas with shardblades, the spren shapes the actions of the human. This makes Nightblood and shardblades *extremely* different. Not to mention they are invested from different shards - if Endowment would come to Roshar, it would probably have a different power set than Honor.

I am looking forward tho` to see what power Szeth will have with Nightblood. I think Szeth + Nightblood should have overall power equal to a KR + shardblade. Blade vs. blade, Nightblood is more powerful than a shardblade, so this should mean that Szeth himself should get powers less powerful than 2 surges.

[Spoolofwhool]

27 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

No,  it isnt.   What made you think that Vasher was trying to recreate a Rosharan shardblade when creating Nightblood?  Nightblood has nothing in common with spren made shardblades other than that they are powerfully invested weapons. 

Well, there are the WoBs that state that Vasher modeled Nightblood after a Rosharan spren shardblade, so they have more in common than just both being shardblades. Personally, I don't think that Nightblood would give surgebinding abilities, I was just indicating why others think it is a possibility. I'm more of the thought that Nightblood contains something approximating a splinter so on Roshar, those it is bonded to would receive some sort of power, similar to other powers granted by a nahel bond, like [Elantris Spoilers]

Quote

Like if someone bonded to Seon went to Roshar. [WoB]

WoBs that Vasher modeled Nightblood after other Shardblades: [WoB] [WoB]

16 minutes ago, marianmi said:

Yeah, I agree with this. The way they were created was totally different. One was splintered from a shard (or two :D), so the intent was "inherited" from the shard(s), one was heavily invested and given an intent by a human. This is also why Nightblood and spren-blades end up being used in a totally different way - one destroys "evil" but does not know the concept of "evil", so a human mind needs to define (the intent is constantly shaped by the wielder), the other (the spren) has a thorough concept of intent and the human has to match that intent. In other words, with Nightblood the human shapes that actions of the blade, whereas with shardblades, the spren shapes the actions of the human. This makes Nightblood and shardblades *extremely* different. Not to mention they are invested from different shards - if Endowment would come to Roshar, it would probably have a different power set than Honor.

I am looking forward tho` to see what power Szeth will have with Nightblood. I think Szeth + Nightblood should have overall power equal to a KR + shardblade. Blade vs. blade, Nightblood is more powerful than a shardblade, so this should mean that Szeth himself should get powers less powerful than 2 surges.

First point, Nightblood is shardblade. A shardblade is loosely defined as a heavily invested magical object. Good point on the differences between intent usages between sprenblades and Nightblood, but those aren't what define a shardblade.

I feel like though since Nightblood is stronger, it would give stronger powers as well, but using those powers would be more limited to the investiture needs of Nightblood. 

Edited October 17, 2016 by Spoolofwhool

[Oversleep]

24 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

No,  it isnt.

Yes it is.

24 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

What made you think that Vasher was trying to recreate a Rosharan shardblade when creating Nightblood?

Brandon told us so.

25 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

Nightblood has nothing in common with spren made shardblades other than that they are powerfully invested weapons.

Nightblood is an "attempt to recreate a Shardblade with other magic system" and "Nightblood is kind of evil, mis-made Shardblade... more mis-made than evil". It's "a kind of robot spren".

[marianmi]

44 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Well, there are the WoBs that state that Vasher modeled Nightblood after a Rosharan spren shardblade, so they have more in common than just both being shardblades. Personally, I don't think that Nightblood would give surgebinding abilities, I was just indicating why others think it is a possibility. I'm more of the thought that Nightblood contains something approximating a splinter so on Roshar, those it is bonded to would receive some sort of power, similar to other powers granted by a nahel bond, like [Elantris Spoilers]

WoBs that Vasher modeled Nightblood after other Shardblades: [WoB] [WoB]

First point, Nightblood is shardblade. A shardblade is loosely defined as a heavily invested magical object. Good point on the differences between intent usages between sprenblades and Nightblood, but those aren't what define a shardblade.

I feel like though since Nightblood is stronger, it would give stronger powers as well, but using those powers would be more limited to the investiture needs of Nightblood. 

I used the term "shardblade" as meaning "Rosharan shardblade", to differentiate them from Nightblood, which would be a "Nalthis shardblade" 

Being a shardblade on Roshar won't give you access to surges. I find it pretty obvious that Szeth won't have surges. Each bond with a spren modify a person's Identity, and the spren adds the bit that: a. allows them to invest, and b. grants them surges. Each type of spren has a "key" which "opens" different abilities. Just like a honorspren will never give access to the Illumination surge, Nightblood will never give access to any surge (there's a chance it may not even allow Szeth to invest).

"Bonding" is the process in which a person's Identity is changed. With rosharan spren, more oaths will "strengthen this bond" => meaning the bond will change => the Identity will slightly change after each level up => the "key cuts" will fit better and unlock more. What is not clear is how Nightblood's bond works, if indeed Nightblood has a Bond (the kind of Bond that alters a person's Identity). If it does (and i think there's WoB that it does), this Bond would be different than a rosharan spren Bond: there would be only 1 change of the Identity (instead of 5), and it's not clear what this change of Identity would "unlock". Maybe it would just give the ability of Invest (so Szeth will be able to suck stormlight and heal). Maybe something different. Maybe it would give access to all 10 surges, maybe to 2 surges each from a different KR order, maybe to 1 surge. We'll have to RAFO  

Sanderson can do whatever here and it would still fit the magic system. But Honor knew Roshar, and made the 10 spren to "unlock" 2 surges each, and I doubt Nightblood's Indentity (created on Nalthis) would fit so well on Roshar's magic system. So I believe Nightblood giving access to surges would be similar to a person finding a key on the streets that can unlock the door to their house  Possible, but extremely unlikely.

Edited October 17, 2016 by marianmi

[Nymeros]

57 minutes ago, Spoolofwhool said:

Well, there are the WoBs that state that Vasher modeled Nightblood after a Rosharan spren shardblade, so they have more in common than just both being shardblades. Personally, I don't think that Nightblood would give surgebinding abilities, I was just indicating why others think it is a possibility. I'm more of the thought that Nightblood contains something approximating a splinter so on Roshar, those it is bonded to would receive some sort of power, similar to other powers granted by a nahel bond, like [Elantris Spoilers]

WoBs that Vasher modeled Nightblood after other Shardblades: [WoB] [WoB]

First point, Nightblood is shardblade. A shardblade is loosely defined as a heavily invested magical object. Good point on the differences between intent usages between sprenblades and Nightblood, but those aren't what define a shardblade.

I feel like though since Nightblood is stronger, it would give stronger powers as well, but using those powers would be more limited to the investiture needs of Nightblood. 

Ah, so that little fact was is taken from some Q&A with Brandon...okay.

Regardless, Nightblood functions differently from Rosharan Shardblades (as we've seen from the books) and is stated by Brandon to have been made using a different magic system. Nightblood was created using Biochroma and has no relationship to Honor or oaths and the 10 surges. Brandon even states in one link that even having something similar to a Nahel bond with something other than those specific radiant spren won't grant surges. Why would Nightblood?

Edited October 17, 2016 by Nymeros

[shadowwisp]

1 hour ago, marianmi said:

Being a shardblade on Roshar won't give you access to surges. I find it pretty obvious that Szeth won't have surges. Each bond with a spren modify a person's Identity, and the spren adds the bit that: a. allows them to invest, and b. grants them surges. Each type of spren has a "key" which "opens" different abilities. Just like a honorspren will never give access to the Illumination surge, Nightblood will never give access to any surge (there's a chance it may not even allow Szeth to invest).

there would be only 1 change of the Identity (instead of 5), and it's not clear what this change of Identity would "unlock". Maybe it would just give the ability of Invest (so Szeth will be able to suck stormlight and heal). Maybe something different. Maybe it would give access to all 10 surges, maybe to 2 surges each from a different KR order, maybe to 1 surge. We'll have to RAFO  

Sanderson can do whatever here and it would still fit the magic system. But Honor knew Roshar, and made the 10 spren to "unlock" 2 surges each, and I doubt Nightblood's Indentity (created on Nalthis) would fit so well on Roshar's magic system. So I believe Nightblood giving access to surges would be similar to a person finding a key on the streets that can unlock the door to their house  Possible, but extremely unlikely.

Being nitpicky here but Honor didn't make the spren to "unlock" the surges, he made the Honorblades for that. The spren just decided to copy the Honorblades, something which Honor did not expect. 

We already have WoB that if a person bonded to a Seon came to Roshar, they would get some abilities. I don't see why the same doesn't apply to Nightblood, especially since we have WoB that Nightblood can form bonds. Also, I highly doubt that Nightblood will only give the ability to Invest considering that there is already an individual on Roshar who can invest without any known bond to spren. I highly suspect several flora and fauna do so as well. 

Also I disagree with you on the Identity part. I don't believe its the Identity that gives the surges but the Bond itself acting as a focus.  

Anyways, we are talking about the power of creation here. It is not limited to 10 forms of expression. The Bond allows access to that power but the Spren/Honorblades filter that power into a specific form creating surgebinding. There are more than one way to filter that power, which is why I don't think the lock and key analog doesn't exactly work here. Nightblood is just going to filter that power in an unique way. 

Edited October 17, 2016 by shadowwisp

[Spoolofwhool]

26 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

Ah, so that little fact was is taken from some Q&A with Brandon...okay.

Regardless, Nightblood functions differently from Rosharan Shardblades (as we've seen from the books) and is stated by Brandon to have been made using a different magic system. Nightblood was created using Biochroma and has no relationship to Honor or oaths and the 10 surges. Brandon even states in one link that even having something similar to a Nahel bond with something other than those specific radiant spren won't grant surges. Why would Nightblood?

I don't know, and as I said, I don't think Nightblood would grant surgebinding abilities. I just think Nightblood would give some powers including stormlight augmentation, but I have no idea what those power would be in the form of. 

Also, Spren don't give surges, they give surgebinding abilities. 

 

[Eki]

22 minutes ago, Nymeros said:

Regardless, Nightblood functions differently from Rosharan Shardblades (as we've seen from the books) and is stated by Brandon to have been made using a different magic system. Nightblood was created using Biochroma and has no relationship to Honor or oaths and the 10 surges. Brandon even states in one link that even having something similar to a Nahel bond with something other than those specific radiant spren won't grant surges. Why would Nightblood?

Nightblood functions differently on Nalthis from Rosharan Shardblades on Roshar. The planet seems to have a big influence on how magics work. Roshar in particular has very much to do with bonds, which we know Nightblood can form. (Whatever bonds are - we don't really know how that works.)

[Spoolofwhool]

7 minutes ago, Eki said:

Nightblood functions differently on Nalthis from Rosharan Shardblades on Roshar. The planet seems to have a big influence on how magics work. Roshar in particular has very much to do with bonds, which we know Nightblood can form. (Whatever bonds are - we don't really know how that works.)

Really, the only thing we know about Nightblood's bond is that it forms after someone draws it and can resist its influence to go destroy evil, after which they no longer feel nausea around it.

[marianmi]

1 hour ago, shadowwisp said:

Being nitpicky here but Honor didn't make the spren to "unlock" the surges, he made the Honorblades for that. The spren just decided to copy the Honorblades, something which Honor did not expect. 

Yes, I was careless. Honor did not make spren for that. In fact, I don't think spren could mimic the Honorblades if they were made only by Honor, I believe being part Cultivation allowed them *the ability* to copy (or to cultivate this ability), whereas being part Honor allowed them to copy *Honorblades* (and give access to the same surges as Honorblades).

1 hour ago, shadowwisp said:

We already have WoB that if a person bonded to a Seon came to Roshar, they would get some abilities. I don't see why the same doesn't apply to Nightblood, especially since we have WoB that Nightblood can form bonds.

I believe that WoB was that they would get some abilities different than the 10 surges. And yes I think the same applies to Nightblood - will get some abilities *different than the 10 surges*.

1 hour ago, shadowwisp said:

Also I disagree with you on the Identity part. I don't believe its the Identity that gives the surges but the Bond itself acting as a focus.

In Elantris and Mistborn, not everyone could do magic - elantrians changed physically (and I say that changed their Identity too), whereas on Scadrial you had to be a descendent of someone with power (again, sDNA and Identity). Hemalurgy allows "stealing" a part of the soul, which I see it as "cut the part of Identity that allows using X metal and patch it to another person", just like the Bond is "patch this person's soul with the spren's part of Identity that allows using stormlight and access <X,Y> surges". On Scadrial the focus was metal, but it had to match the Identity bit that allows burning that metal. Similarly, the focus on Roshar is the bond/the type of spren, which is also related to the Identity forged after the Bond. Hemalurgy works in all magic systems, because it can steal any part of the soul that give access to the magic.

[Nymeros]

1 hour ago, Spoolofwhool said:

I don't know, and as I said, I don't think Nightblood would grant surgebinding abilities. I just think Nightblood would give some powers including stormlight augmentation, but I have no idea what those power would be in the form of. 

That's cool. So we pretty much agree that the OP's theory is unlikely to pan out?

Quote

Also, Spren don't give surges, they give surgebinding abilities. 

I know but IDC.

1 hour ago, Eki said:

Nightblood functions differently on Nalthis from Rosharan Shardblades on Roshar. The planet seems to have a big influence on how magics work. Roshar in particular has very much to do with bonds, which we know Nightblood can form. (Whatever bonds are - we don't really know how that works.)

It will also likely function differently on Roshar from other Rosharan shard blades, regardless of Vasher's intent to copy them. Brandon already confirmed that bonds may grant abilities on Roshar, but i dont see how that would change Nightblood's nature.

[Spoolofwhool]

1 hour ago, Nymeros said:

That's cool. So we pretty much agree that the OP's theory is unlikely to pan out?

The theory that Nightblood would give the ability to use all forms of surgebinding or every form of manifestation of investiture on Roshar? Most definitely. That it would give the ability to use any manifestation of investiture on Roshar? I'm doubtful on that count as well. I think that at a base level, it would give the power use internalize stormlight and use that to augment yourself, but further abilities would be different. 

1 hour ago, marianmi said:

Spoiler

In Elantris and Mistborn, not everyone could do magic - elantrians changed physically (and I say that changed their Identity too), whereas on Scadrial you had to be a descendent of someone with power (again, sDNA and Identity). Hemalurgy allows "stealing" a part of the soul, which I see it as "cut the part of Identity that allows using X metal and patch it to another person", just like the Bond is "patch this person's soul with the spren's part of Identity that allows using stormlight and access <X,Y> surges". On Scadrial the focus was metal, but it had to match the Identity bit that allows burning that metal. Similarly, the focus on Roshar is the bond/the type of spren, which is also related to the Identity forged after the Bond. Hemalurgy works in all magic systems, because it can steal any part of the soul that give access to the magic.

Elantris and Mistborn spoilers

Mistborn spoilers. Please remember to spoiler.

Spoiler

 

I think it's mostly sDNA and your spiritweb which decides whether you can use magic. While I agree that identity is based off of those, changing your identity is not what gives you the ability to use manifestations of investiture. This is supported by the fact that changing your identity using Forgery to an identity with say, the ability of steel allomancy, will not grant you the ability to use steel allomancy, because your spiritweb will not be changed in the appropriate manner. 

While it's true that hemalurgy does steal in some part identity, which is why stealing a feruchemical power gives access to the originator of the power's metalminds, I think it's mostly related to stealing the identity that is associated with that piece of spiritweb which has the power. 

In my opinion, you're defining identity and spiritweb too much as being the same thing, when in fact I believe they are more separate, while both being a part of someone's spiritual aspect.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Spoolofwhool