Denial

[CancerPuppy]

Denial seems to be a huge thing with the radiant noobs. The most obvious is shallan, but what about kaladin? lift? Szeth? All these people that hold power seem to be in some type of denial. Looking at it this way, why in Roshar would you want any of these people to be your hero? Your life would depend on their internal struggle.

[Ardjet]

I'd agree with you. They are definitely of dubious quality for leadership and command. From my own perspective, though, I find it interesting/different/"realistic" that Sanderson has the fate of the world resting not on infallible heroes, but...just people. Regular people with problems and ghosts, who aren't necessarily the best choice, but they're the best Roshar has. It reminds me of our world. Our organizations are run by regular people who have lives and problems outside of their office, and their decisions are affected by these outside pressures.

Also there's the fact that a Rosharan soul needs to be cracked or "damaged" in order to make space for the magic system to seep in and take root.

[CancerPuppy]

Yes but I suppose my question is... what distinguishes the orders? Is it the nature of your denial? I mean it's not like you can just apply for the job of "windrunner"

[Ardjet]

Ah, I see. I think it may indeed be the nature of your "denial". The source of your mental issue. Or maybe how the individual deals and copes with it. Certain Spren are attracted to different emotions/ideals, after all. Shallan lies to deny her pain, which (re)attracts Pattern. Though I'm not sure what initially drew Pattern to her in the past. I don't think that has been revealed.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

Don't forget, even the original Radiants were supposed to be broken as well. I guess the Oath system wasn't just a growth system for the magic but also a system for measuring the growth of a person too

[Uilos he/him]

I think that what seperates a Radiant from just being broken is that they own up to it and swear, literally, to do better. Kaladin, Shallan, and Dalinar are all brilliant but flawed people racked with guilt and denial of a lot of their past. They have all gained tremendous power when they come to terms with it, and swear to uphold something higher than their personal beliefs. Someone who has lived a facade forced to tell deepest truths. A man who is prejudiced swearing to uphold All life. Dalinar is different, but he reverses his role of being used by the storms to speaking amongst them. He learns to drop violence and become something else, something higher than what they are.

Which just begs the question of what Jasnah and Renarin swore.

[King's Twit he/him]

I think that what seperates a Radiant from just being broken is that they own up to it and swear, literally, to do better. Kaladin, Shallan, and Dalinar are all brilliant but flawed people racked with guilt and denial of a lot of their past. They have all gained tremendous power when they come to terms with it, and swear to uphold something higher than their personal beliefs. Someone who has lived a facade forced to tell deepest truths. A man who is prejudiced swearing to uphold All life. Dalinar is different, but he reverses his role of being used by the storms to speaking amongst them. He learns to drop violence and become something else, something higher than what they are.

Which just begs the question of what Jasnah and Renarin swore.

 

Isn't it confirmed that most of the orders have set, rigid Ideals that they say to 'advance' their Nahel bond? (the only exception we've seen being Lightweavers)

 

WoB has given us at least one Ideal beyond the First Ideal, which every order that says Ideals shares in common, so the second Ideal and beyond appears to be order-specific, rather than individual-specific.

 

I think that each order of the Radiants had a specific ideology that the members, to one degree or another, shared in common with each other and with their spren. This ideology is reflected in the Ideals they swear to uphold, or in the case of the Lightweavers, their ideology is reflected in the very personal, self-aware Truths that they have to speak and accept as true.

Edited February 24, 2016 by King's Twit

[Ardjet]

Which could still work for the type of denial a person employs and thus what type of spren is drawn to them. Kaladin lost Tien, and tried(when he wasn't suffering from depression) to hold(bind) people close to him after that, such as with his squads and the one or two slave revolts he orchestrated. I think I remember Syl saying she'd been watching him before then, but I'm not sure how far back.

[SetStndbySmn he/him]

Syl mentions in her regressed state that all of the knights were 'broken.'  Their coping mechanism for not completely shattering from their hardship is likely what determines what spren are attracted to them;  Shallan's lies attracted the cryptics, Kaladin becomes determined to protect people after Tien's death, and Dalinar tries to unite Alethkar after the death of his brother.

 

It's probably important to remember that evidence suggests there are exceptions:  Lift appears to have been selected based on her interaction with the Nightwatcher as well as her youth, and was also apparently chosen by the consensus of the Edgedancer spren.

[natc]

The brokenness most probably correlates to spiritual damage in some way, which as seen with allomancers are necessary to provide the gap in the soul through which investiture can flow through and be channeled by that person.

Though it does seem surgebinding doesn't need as deep of a trauma threshold as pre-Empire-era allomancy to channel stormlight properly. Point being that if they weren't broken their powers shouldn't even function.

Edited February 25, 2016 by natc

[IndigoAjah he/him]

Denial seems to be a huge thing with the radiant noobs. The most obvious is shallan, but what about kaladin? lift? Szeth? All these people that hold power seem to be in some type of denial. Looking at it this way, why in Roshar would you want any of these people to be your hero? Your life would depend on their internal struggle.

I suspect many great leaders and heroes suffer from internal conflict though, maybe it makes them so used to fighting themselves that external powers seem less daunting?

[IndigoAjah he/him]

The brokenness most probably correlates to spiritual damage in some way, which as seen with allomancers are necessary to provide the gap in the soul through which investiture can flow through and be channeled by that person.

Though it does seem surgebinding doesn't need as deep of a trauma threshold as pre-Empire-era allomancy to channel stormlight properly. Point being that if they weren't broken their powers shouldn't even function.

I don't know. The Radiants we have seen have had preeeeeeetty dramatic trauma in their pasts, and on several repeating occasions. Kelsier and Vin (and Zane) had sucky traumatic pasts, but I don't think it's fair to say that on the whole Snapping is harsher on Scadrial than Roshar. From the little evidence we have seen, both seem close to equally horrible

[King's Twit he/him]

I don't know. The Radiants we have seen have had preeeeeeetty dramatic trauma in their pasts, and on several repeating occasions. Kelsier and Vin (and Zane) had sucky traumatic pasts, but I don't think it's fair to say that on the whole Snapping is harsher on Scadrial than Roshar. From the little evidence we have seen, both seem close to equally horrible

 

Yeah, but at least the Knights Radiant and the Surgebinding magic system are centered around facing that damage and trauma, then turning it into a strength rather than a weakness.

 

Snapping just gives you powers and then lets you go on with your sad, traumatic life.

[DreamEternal]

Yeah, but at least the Knights Radiant and the Surgebinding magic system are centered around facing that damage and trauma, then turning it into a strength rather than a weakness.

Snapping just gives you powers and then lets you go on with your sad, traumatic life.

You are ignoring the fact that if the Knight is too weak to grow past the trauma and become a hero, they stay low-powered, and if they change their minds about the whole "oath" stuff, their best friend dies.

Yeah, I'd rather be a mistborn, thank you.

[maxal she/her]

You are ignoring the fact that if the Knight is too weak to grow past the trauma and become a hero, they stay low-powered, and if they change their minds about the whole "oath" stuff, their best friend dies.

Yeah, I'd rather be a mistborn, thank you.

 

Sprens are unlikely to start the bonding process with an individual they have no faith will walk pass his trauma.

[DreamEternal]

Sprens are unlikely to start the bonding process with an individual they have no faith will walk pass his trauma.

And we all know Spren are never wrong, right? I mean, look at the Stormfather, what a wise and reasonable fellow!

[IndigoAjah he/him]

Even with Kaladin it was a close run thing.

[maxal she/her]

Even with Kaladin it was a close run thing.

 

True enough. I have said at times Kaladin wasn't a good candidate for a Radiant: he is too broken. I have argued he was the bare minimum to make it as I have expressed doubt towards Radiants of old breaking their bond in the mid-process on a regular basis.

 

Though I suspect this is an unpopular thought.

[Uilos he/him]

Which leads me to believe that the Knights gave up their Shards because, I think, they finally cracked further. These were people who were chosen because they hit the wall, or rock bottom, and were tasked with continuously hitting it back. After a while, something has got to break and the Knights seemed pre-broke to begin with.

[IndigoAjah he/him]

I can see where you're coming from but I don't completely agree that he is quite too broken. The other thing to consider is that the old Radiants would have senior members of the order, and guidance and support in place to help them when their Oaths became a burden or confusing. Kaladin (and Shallan, who is being set up for another fall in the next book) do not, they have the vague memories of Spren with quite... interesting personalities

[maxal she/her]

Which leads me to believe that the Knights gave up their Shards because, I think, they finally cracked further. These were people who were chosen because they hit the wall, or rock bottom, and were tasked with continuously hitting it back. After a while, something has got to break and the Knights seemed pre-broke to begin with.

 

I like this theory.

 

 

I can see where you're coming from but I don't completely agree that he is quite too broken. The other thing to consider is that the old Radiants would have senior members of the order, and guidance and support in place to help them when their Oaths became a burden or confusing. Kaladin (and Shallan, who is being set up for another fall in the next book) do not, they have the vague memories of Spren with quite... interesting personalities

 

Again, true enough. It makes me wonder how involved the older members were towards the younger members. If you are right though, we are bond to see many of the others crack, not just Kaladin.

[natc]

I don't know. The Radiants we have seen have had preeeeeeetty dramatic trauma in their pasts, and on several repeating occasions. Kelsier and Vin (and Zane) had sucky traumatic pasts, but I don't think it's fair to say that on the whole Snapping is harsher on Scadrial than Roshar. From the little evidence we have seen, both seem close to equally horrible

Empire allomancers were stronger than "natural" ones, and you have to nearly kill them to actually snap them right for the most part. Intense emotions besides pain are hard to come by . . .

Then there's being a non-lerasium-influenced atium misting, which apparently takes a whole 16 days of nonstop suffering to snap with supernatural aid. Preservation is pretty brutal.

I feel Kelsier is the most comparable example to Radiants. His body wasn't in the best shape and he wasn't quite sane like, ever, but his snapping was a purely emotional event. As most people remark he was a half-breed growing up in the skaa underground risking his life on every insane job he pulled, which is definitely far worse than what Kaladin grew up with and he somehow did not snap from that.

Edited February 27, 2016 by natc

[Ari he/him]

Which leads me to believe that the Knights gave up their Shards because, I think, they finally cracked further. These were people who were chosen because they hit the wall, or rock bottom, and were tasked with continuously hitting it back. After a while, something has got to break and the Knights seemed pre-broke to begin with.

 

Why would the in-universe WoR then refer to "that thing of wicked eminence" with regards to the Recreance then?

 

I'd say it's well-established that there was some secret revealed that precipitated the Knights Radiant breaking their oaths.

[IndigoAjah he/him]

Empire allomancers were stronger than "natural" ones, and you have to nearly kill them to actually snap them right for the most part. Intense emotions besides pain are hard to come by . . .

Then there's being a non-lerasium-influenced atium misting, which apparently takes a whole 16 days of nonstop suffering to snap with supernatural aid. Preservation is pretty brutal.

I feel Kelsier is the most comparable example to Radiants. His body wasn't in the best shape and he wasn't quite sane like, ever, but his snapping was a purely emotional event. As most people remark he was a half-breed growing up in the skaa underground risking his life on every insane job he pulled, which is definitely far worse than what Kaladin grew up with and he somehow did not snap from that.

I agree, that is fair, though do we know that the trauma leading into the snapping previously doesn't "add up" towards it? I'm also not convinced, and I accept that others may disagree, that emotional trauma and psychological trauma are "better" than physical trauma, or that snapping follows particularly set rules about degree and strength of snapping

[AerionBFII he/him]

There is a technical term for people who have no self doubt. Douche bags.

I'd prefer a hero with self doubt, there's no fun in having a protagonist who never questions if what he/she is right or if they are doing the right thing. It adds depth and lets us relate to them.

 

I think it's more the fact of the nature of investiture than strictly denial, now please i don't have a 17th Shard Masters Degree or a Cosmere PHD but investiture seems to need that crack in the spirit web to function, like Allomancy needs you to snap, SurgeBinding needs that but it seems to be emotional like Kaladin being emotionally crippled by slavery ad everybody constantly dying or Shallan and Lift by their own past, the death of Gavilar for Dalinar seems to be his turning point also and Renarins constant feelings of self doubt and uselessness..

 

Tell me your not hyped...