Some Thematic Speculation on Shallan in book 3

[KnightGradient]

So, I was thinking about Stormlight and stuff, and I realized something horrifyingly logical; Shallan is going to die.

 

As of right now, the most important main character to (actually)die is Tien or Gavilar, neither of which were alive during the actual time of the books. Going just by thematic ideas, a main character needs to actually die soon.

 

Shallan is infiltrating the Ghostbloods, an incredibly intricate organization that most likely spans multiple planets. It is definitely dangerous, and they will definitely be prepared somehow for her. It isn't to weird to think they might ahve the best of her.

 

Now, this is where we need to put on our aluminum hats. Shallan is stuck in a love triangle. Kaladin would be restrained by his sense of honor, and Adolin might get jealous of him if he found out. Shallan, being caught in the middle, would freak out. If she were to die however, before completing the triangle, they would both do something to further push them down the paths they've taken. Kaladin would try to protect her family, since he knows they'd be in danger, and Syl would want him to do that. Adolin, however, would descend into a murderous state. We've already seen him break the Codes to kill Sadeas, and if Shallan were to die, he'd go Batman on the Ghostbloods. No second chances for them.

 

The main point of Shallans death would be to provide a uniting and conflicting force in "The Gang", but it would also establish the mortality of the Radiants, instead of letting us believe they're the demi-gods we've been led to believe.

 

Now I hope to Harmony I'm wrong, I really do. But it makes way too much sense for me to not to share it. Odds are, I am wrong, and Shallan lives a full and healthy life. What do you guys think?

[dadradahmember he/him]

I think Kaladin would be the one to die for the main characters... Shallan's story, infiltrating the ghost bloods, doing scholarly research is too important to the story line and revealing information about the cosmere and roshar. As she learns this info she will become conniving, sharp tongued to escape anything the ghost blood or the diagramist throw at her.

Kaladin's story I find it kind of finished, I don't know how Brandon can continue his story line or do. I think Kaladin is going to become sort of like kelsier existing in the cognitive realm or shadesmar and able to fight in the cognitive realm, attacking the sprens from odium on that side. while shallan tries to help in the physical realm and travel between both worlds.

And have a love triangle with Adolin and kaladin both on different planes and none of them able to find out.

Edited February 23, 2016 by dadradahmember

[Vander]

You know what I hate? When people say Adolin would go murderous just because of the Sadeas thing. I mean, there was so much history and context there, which just wouldn't exist in most cases. I think he's smarter than that: tackling the Ghostbloods alone won't get him anywhere. He'd be more than capable of taking the subtle route, even if it's not quite in his nature.

 

Agree with Dadrada, though. Kal's continuing role, while important, seems much easier to cut out than Shallan's. Plus, I'm sort of done with Wonder-Boy: Adolin, Renarin, or Jasnah seem the more interesting in that part of the story. Then, of course, there's Szeth: this one's obvious. Shallan has some value, but I feel she's more of an information-centered character than anything.

[Observer]

Given that the Ghostbloods are actually really chill with having Shallan spend her downtime as Veil working with them, they seem really unlikely to kill her. And honestly I'm thinking Shallan might take them up on their offer. Of all the characters to run with a double life, Shallan is easily the most likely. She'd probably enjoy it. I spent a lot of time saying Dalinar's story was done and he was gonna die in WOR and then I felt dumb at the end, when his story found more places to go. Which is why, while I agree about Kaladin appearing to run out of story space, I still hesitate to jump onboard this time. Brandon's proven me wrong before

[Guest]

While I agree Kaladin's story arc may not need to be continued pass the first arc, I somehow doubt he is the one to bite the dust. Most of my reasons for believing so is plan-wise: Brandon had planned to potentially write a second Kaladin book within the second half. Of course, Brandon also said he would write books from dead characters, but he can't have meant Kaladin when he said it. Why? Because he still means to write books from dead characters... 

 

For the longest time, we all thought he meant Dalinar.

 

But it wasn't him, Dalinar is well an alive for his flashback book and he is the only Bondsmith. His foreseen death may have been a Red Hearing.

 

Shallan? Nope. I don't think so. Shallan is the only young main female character we have: someone has to shire the next generation of little guys and gales. So huh, I do see Shallan actually becoming a mother within the second half of SA... Children is not a subject Brandon has tackled within any of his stories, I feel it would be appropriate here. Of course, it would mean a more laid back role for her once we get there, but we all expect this to happen.

 

Adolin? I could be him. His death has been foreseen several times over. He could die. His death would have an impact, but still... He remains a much more interesting character alive than death. His ordeal is more interesting to read if he is alive... besides Adolin is not one of the flashback characters, so it isn't him either.

 

And while Adolin's death would have an impact, it would never be as big as Renarin dying. Who expects the quiet shy kid to die? Nobody. It is too painful to read: he has to grow and become mighty, but what if his path is to die young? Brandon gave hints Renarin does not have plot armor and even if dead, he would still play a role within the second half... I had wondered how this could work out.

 

So right now, if you ask me who I think will die? My money is on Renarin.

[Observer]

Don't let Feather hear that. 

 

I do wonder how Shallan will interact with Jasnah after all this has happened. There are a lot of ways it could go, and not all of them are pleasant.

[Guest]

Don't let Feather hear that. 

 

I do wonder how Shallan will interact with Jasnah after all this has happened. There are a lot of ways it could go, and not all of them are pleasant.

 

I wouldn't have said it just a few weeks ago, but even since this comment Brandon made on Reddit... It has been going on and on and on in my mind to the point where it became my new head canon.

 

This being said, nobody has to die. I'd rather be wrong than right about it.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

I don't want to post anything too much of a spoiler, but I think we know Sanderson is willing to kill main characters.

But from what we have seen thus far I am inclined to conclude that such a major character is unlikely to die until near the end of the story.

Still, we can't be sure that any of our main characters won't die. Well, I personally think Dalinar is least likely to be killed, but even so...

[Guy Srinivasan]

Brandon never kills anyone. Like, ever. That's my new theory. Name one person.

 

Reckoners

Megan? No. Also multiverse.

 

Elantris

Red herring spoiler to avoid the existence of spoilers being spoilers. Or did I forget a non-death.

 

Stormlight Archive

Syl, Jasnah, Shallan-in-the-future-but-she-gets-resurrected-in-book-4-amirite, Szeth, etc.

 

Mistborn

Yeah... I'm even suspicious of the Lord Ruler, etc. because of the God Beyond.

 

Warbreaker

We can conclude from my thesis that You Know Who will Return. Voldemort. Voldemort will Return.

[Esaias he/him]

Name one person.

Mistborn 3:

Vin. Elend.

Secret History:

The Lord Ruler passed Beyond. There's no coming back from that.

[ChickenPlague he/him]

Elantris

Hrathen also dies

So yeah. I think there are some who died.

[Jondesu he/him]

Mistborn

Dockson, Ham, Tindwyl

 

Yup, never kills anyone.  

 

jW

[DSC01 he/him]

I wouldn't have said it just a few weeks ago, but even since this comment Brandon made on Reddit... It has been going on and on and on in my mind to the point where it became my new head canon.

 

This being said, nobody has to die. I'd rather be wrong than right about it.

 

I wouldn't read too much into that Reddit comment. It was said in response to someone who had specifically referenced Renarin, using him as an example of a character who is guaranteed to survive for the next three books, since he gets a flashback book in the back 5. So, yes, Brandon's response used Renarin, specifically, as an example of someone who could die but still have a flashback book, but he only did that because he was using the same example as the person that he was responding to. 

 

I think Renarin has about an equal chance of dying as any of the others. I'd think you would be eager for Renarin to be the one to go, if someone has to. After all, Brandon said that a character can be dead and still have a book that tells their story through flashbacks but also through their continuing influence on other characters. If Renarin dies before his book and Adolin is still alive, you'd better believe that Renarin's book will be very heavy on Adolin POVs.

 

Personally, I think that if at least one of the main characters in the back 5 is guaranteed to be dead during their book, it would make the most sense for it to be one or both of Heralds. Their flashbacks would probably be very informative, and they would likely still be around, in Damnation, even after they died. I'm certainly not keen on reading a book where most of the POVs involve a character being tortured endlessly, but if the battle against Odium has progressed considerably by that point in the story, maybe Damnation won't even be a giant torture chamber anymore. They would still be sidelined by their deaths, but perhaps they could do some behind the scenes work in the Cognitive Realm or something.

[geralt]

I suspect Dalinar and Kaladin are the prime candidates, but probably not before book 5.

Dalinar has already been almost killed twice in the previous books, so I reckon the third time may be the charm. He's also not a youth anymore so if the time skip between the first and the second arc is a long one, chances are he'd be too old, hence it might be easier to just get rid of him before then. The fact that he's the only bondsmith so far should give him some time, though.

Kaladin, on the other hand, is progressing too quickly for his own good. At the rate he's going, he'll become a full-fledged radiant by book 4 and has already gone through a good amount of development, too. Considering he'll always be at the front in the coming battles, Brandon giving him a heroic death seems plausible enough to avoid stalling his character. 

[Oversleep]

...But why character's plot has to ultimately result in his/her death?

I understand points about Kaladin's story being quite exhausted, but not yet. Even if his progression is over, that doesn't mean he has to die. He will be given just less screen time, operating his Windrunner Task Force, appearing in other character's viewpoints.

I feel more excited to read what else Brandon has in stock for our characters instead of killing them off 'because somebody has to die'. Nope. This isn't ASOIAF death-driven plot.

Some secondary characters may have it harder, especially those with ties to the primary characters. Death of the relative/beloved can be a hardship for the character. And Everstorm looms, some people can die and we will watch main characters experience it, struggling with it while fighting Desolation and at the same time mourning their lost.
...
... nonononoNONONONO, DON'T YOU DARE KILL NAVANI!

....

Edited February 23, 2016 by Oversleep

[Guest]

 

I suspect Dalinar and Kaladin are the prime candidates, but probably not before book 5.

Dalinar has already been almost killed twice in the previous books, so I reckon the third time may be the charm. He's also not a youth anymore so if the time skip between the first and the second arc is a long one, chances are he'd be too old, hence it might be easier to just get rid of him before then. The fact that he's the only bondsmith so far should give him some time, though.

Kaladin, on the other hand, is progressing too quickly for his own good. At the rate he's going, he'll become a full-fledged radiant by book 4 and has already gone through a good amount of development, too. Considering he'll always be at the front in the coming battles, Brandon giving him a heroic death seems plausible enough to avoid stalling his character. 

 

You have highlighted what may be one of my greatest sources of concern for the future of SA. I do not mind if Kaladin over-develops rapidly to full knight and goes into a slower progression loop, but I am afraid the author will keep such a strong focus on the character, it will feel as if he is indeed stalling. 

 

Brandon writes, on average, more scenes for Kaladin than any other characters and not all of them seem required. We have dig in deep within Kaladin's psyche, every single one of his individual thought is the sole focus of several chapters... The amount of character development he has received is massive, which is both a great and a bad thing.

 

It is a great thing as more character development is always better, we got to know him better. 

 

It is a bad thing because it currently is heavily unbalanced within the current story: other characters development feels lacking in comparison. Knowing Brandon intends to keep a tight focus on Kaladin for the reminder of the first arc, I can't help but wonder if the story won't end up being one with one over-developed main protagonist and a bunch of lesser characters.... In my mind, epic fantasy has to rely on a larger cast than 2-3 characters.

 

So yes I do worry writing too much of Kaladin will turn SA into a one man's show and it will lesser the story. This being said, I do not think Kaladin needs to die, I do not want him to die: he certainly is more interesting alive than having a "heroes death". I simply think the author has to be careful in weighting in his characters better for the future books: not every single climax scene has to pass through Kaladin. Too much is like not enough: it makes the character predictable and down the road, uninteresting. 

Edited February 23, 2016 by maxal

[geralt]

...But why character's plot has to ultimately result in his/her death?

I understand points about Kaladin's story being quite exhausted, but not yet. Even if his progression is over, that doesn't mean he has to die. He will be given just less screen time, operating his Windrunner Task Force, appearing in other character's viewpoints.

I feel more excited to read what else Brandon has in stock for our characters instead of killing them off 'because somebody has to die'. Nope. This isn't ASOIAF death-driven plot.

Some secondary characters may have it harder, especially those with ties to the primary characters. Death of the relative/beloved can be a hardship for the character. And Everstorm looms, some people can die and we will watch main characters experience it, struggling with it while fighting Desolation and at the same time mourning their lost.

...

... nonononoNONONONO, DON'T YOU DARE KILL NAVANI!

....

 

While I'm not a fan of the "Game of Thrones" approach either, I still feel like killing a main character would do good to the story. I didn't mind it too much in the first two books, but it is hard to deny that there have been one too many instances in which characters (Dalinar, Szeth, Jasnah...) survived situations that they shouldn't have. Some plot armor is absolutely fine, but now that a desolation is occurring and with the Roshar population likely getting decimated, in my opinion the conflict would feel cheapened if the main cast didn't suffer any sort of loss. And who's a better candidate than Kaladin who already had a lot of time to shine? 

[Guest]

While I'm not a fan of the "Game of Thrones" approach either, I still feel like killing a main character would do good to the story. I didn't mind it too much in the first two books, but it is hard to deny that there have been one too many instances in which characters (Dalinar, Szeth, Jasnah...) survived situations that they shouldn't have. Some plot armor is absolutely fine, but now that a desolation is occurring and with the Roshar population likely getting decimated, in my opinion the conflict would feel cheapened if the main cast didn't suffer any sort of loss. And who's a better candidate than Kaladin who already had a lot of time to shine? 

 

Brandon clearly stated nobody had plot armor and to expect characters to die. So I'd say someone is biting the dust...

 

As for Kaladin having had a lot of time to shine, while I do agree with you, I think it possible the author may not. From what I have seen, Brandon tends to write single-POV stories more often than not and most of his multi-POV stories present a clear and defined main protagonist. I am unsure if he is going to be willing to switch the focus from Kaladin, as the main protagonist, to anyone... The main characters of the first arc are Dalinar, Kaladin, Shallan, Eshonai and Szeth, though Kaladin truly is a step ahead of everyone. I personally don't consider the last two to be strong enough characters able to garner a large enough sympathy capital from the readers to get into this position (but YMMV), so all that is left are Dalinar and Shallan. Shallan isn't action-oriented enough to take up this role (Brandon writing style implies many action sequence, he thus needs action oriented main protagonists) and Dalinar is too stoic for it. Other characters could step up, but Brandon already killed the idea.

 

Hence, I do believe Kaladin will remain the main protagonist for the reminder of the first arc and he will be a recurring one going into the second half. 

[geralt]

 

You have highlighted what may be one of my greatest sources of concern for the future of SA. I do not mind if Kaladin over-develops rapidly to full knight and goes into a slower progression loop, but I am afraid the author will keep such a strong focus on the character, it will feel as if he is indeed stalling. 

 

Brandon writes, on average, more scenes for Kaladin than any other characters and not all of them seem required. We have dig in deep within Kaladin's psyche, every single one of his individual thought is the sole focus of several chapters... The amount of character development he has received is massive, which is both a great and a bad thing.

 

It is a great thing as more character development is always better, we got to know him better. 

 

It is a bad thing because it currently is heavily unbalanced within the current story: other characters development feels lacking in comparison. Knowing Brandon intends to keep a tight focus on Kaladin for the reminder of the first arc, I can't help but wonder if the story won't end up being one with one over-developed main protagonist and a bunch of lesser characters.... In my mind, epic fantasy has to rely on a larger cast than 2-3 characters.

 

So yes I do worry writing too much of Kaladin will turn SA into a one man's show and it will lesser the story. This being said, I do not think Kaladin needs to die, I do not want him to die: he certainly is more interesting alive than having a "heroes death". I simply think the author has to be careful in weighting in his characters better for the future books: not every single climax scene has to pass through Kaladin. Too much is like not enough: it makes the character predictable and down the road, uninteresting. 

 

 

I wouldn't worry about that too much. There's still 8 more SA books yet to come so Brandon has plenty of time to explore the other characters. I'm sure by the end of the series, at the least we'll know everything there is to know about the 10 primary characters and even tertiary characters will have had their share of development. That seems good enough to me and in fact I'd say much more than that would be counterproductive.

 

On the climax thing, I agree on that. The 2 scenes where Kaladin swore his ideals are among my favourites, but there's no denying it'd be far too predictable if we knew that's where the story is going to go every time. It'd be a nice change of pace if for once Kaladin managed to say the words while in a more relaxed situation.

In any case, Oathbringer will be very telling on whether Kaladin is indeed regarded by Sanderson as a more important main character than the rest.

[Guest]

I wouldn't worry about that too much. There's still 8 more SA books yet to come so Brandon has plenty of time to explore the other characters. I'm sure by the end of the series, at the least we'll know everything there is to know about the 10 primary characters and even tertiary characters will have had their share of development. That seems good enough to me and in fact I'd say much more than that would be counterproductive.

 

Yes and no. It is true the back 5 characters will get their time to shine once we get there, but if we look at the first five, it is undeniable Kaladin has been the most favored, up to now. Based on Brandon's planning for book 3, it looks as if Kaladin is going to remain one of the most favored character for the first three books, but then again, it may just be an impression. While the plan calls for many Kaladin's POV, it could be it will turn out being equivalent to Shallan in WoK which is less than WoR and fine with me. This little colored plans may not give the right picture of the next book.

 

This being said I was not implying more characters should be develop simply that POV time could be more evenly distributed among the characters.

 

As for tertiary characters, how much development they will ultimately get and how satisfying it will be, in the end, is yet to be seen. The greater majority of tertiary characters are set to become main protagonists at one point or another, except two. One I do not consider needs a great deal lot of development to remain mildly interesting, it is the other one I worry about.

 

 

On the climax thing, I agree on that. The 2 scenes where Kaladin swore his ideals are among my favourites, but there's no denying it'd be far too predictable if we knew that's where the story is going to go every time. It'd be a nice change of pace if for once Kaladin managed to say the words while in a more relaxed situation.

In any case, Oathbringer will be very telling on whether Kaladin is indeed regarded by Sanderson as a more important main character than the rest.

 

I personally was not found of the oath related climax in WoR as I felt it was too contrived. The author built in a massive set up just to give the oath an effect: he didn't bother to do the same for Shallan. It bothered me somehow, not the fact he didn't do it for Shallan as I didn't think her character needed it, but the fact he seems to go over the top each it is about Kaladin.

 

As it currently stands, Kaladin's arc going into book 3 appears too predictable: depression, fight, depression, fight, screw-up and more depression and probably imprisonment combined with physical torture, last stand on the verge of death, oath, heroic rescue. I sincerely hope Brandon will kill this pattern going into book 3 and walked out of the paved road for Kaladin here. It was effective once, twice, but use it thrice and you may have washed the baby with the bath water.

 

Saying the oath in a more relax setup, with his father, surrounded by his men, could be equally powerful and set the character up for another kind of arc than the cyclic actions he has presented us so far.

 

I agree about the last sentence. Book 3 should settle the matter.

[Pathfinder]

I hope we lose some focus on Kaladin for the simple reason that I am kinda getting tired of seeing so many characters having flying powers across his books. I want to see him delve more into Lift's, Shallan's, Renarin's, and Dalinar's powers. We have had Vin, Kelsier, Wax, David (when he used the spyril), all be focused on and all have flying abilities. I get Brandon wishes he could fly, but I really want to see people get around some other way for a bit lol. 

[muco]

If I am reader, I would be quite disappointed if Kaladin dies in book 4 or 5.

 

Some are saying his arc is finished and I am left thinking, HOW?

 

How is Kaladin's arc finished?

He has come into his full radiant powers yet.

 

Let us assume Kaladin comes into his whole powers in book 3, does that mean his arc is finished?

 

Becoming radiant is a pre-requisite, it's not the end. It's like reaching lax level in a MMO, after which the real game starts.

kaladin reaching his full radiant powers is not the end of his arc, it is in fact the START of his arc.

[Guest]

If I am reader, I would be quite disappointed if Kaladin dies in book 4 or 5.

 

Some are saying his arc is finished and I am left thinking, HOW?

 

How is Kaladin's arc finished?

He has come into his full radiant powers yet.

 

Let us assume Kaladin comes into his whole powers in book 3, does that mean his arc is finished?

 

Becoming radiant is a pre-requisite, it's not the end. It's like reaching lax level in a MMO, after which the real game starts.

kaladin reaching his full radiant powers is not the end of his arc, it is in fact the START of his arc.

 

I think one of the reasons some readers believe Kaladin arc is nearing to an end is due to the fact we have spend too much time with his thoughts. What else is there left to add? What facet of Kaladin have we not explored in several chapters yet? In comparison, every single other character feels under-developed which explains, in part, some of those comments.

 

I also think we all have different ideas as to how the story should/could/would go down. I can hazard myself to a few guesses, but I'd say there are the readers who prefer to have larger cast of well developed characters, probably readers coming from the world of WoT or other similar works, while other readers prefer to focus on one character.

 

It is the never-ending war towards each individual's preference: single POV or multi-POV. 

 

I have noticed two kind of readers: those who want all books to keep on focusing on Kaladin as they have identified him as the "main POV character" and those who want the focus to lessen on Kaladin in order to give more room to the "other POV characters". 

 

So when people say Kaladin's arc is nearing to an end, my thoughts are it means they simply wish for a change of focus. There are readers who think the story focuses too much on Kaladin and he isn't the guy they wish to read the most about. Others also wish to read about the progression for other characters, discover other orders and not just the Windrunners.

 

There also are people who dislike the strong focus on depression into his story: sometimes it is because they find it tedious to read, other times it is because they feel giving the character a disease he can never overcome, which will always take a lot of place into the narrative is more or less the equivalent of a flat arc. 

 

Please, bear in mind these are just thoughts I took here and there from several conversations, not necessarily my own, not in their integrity.

[Vander]

Agree with Maxal, which is strange in and of itself. 

 

In any case, there's also the fact that "amount of power" should never be a criterion for whether a character is "done" yet. Admittedly, many series have exactly such a thing, but they tend to be rather... second-rate, for the most part. The main problem with your analogy is that MMOs are hardly story-driven, and we're definitely not playing a game here. 

 

Yes, he has yet to learn what it means to be a true Windrunner. However, this can easily be done off-screen; I seriously don't want to read through half a book every single time he has to take an oath. Give us proof of his growth on-screen, but don't make us read through him realizing various things that already fit into his character and don't do much for it.

[Guest]

Agree with Maxal, which is strange in and of itself. 

 

Why is it strange to agree with me? 

 

In any case, there's also the fact that "amount of power" should never be a criterion for whether a character is "done" yet. Admittedly, many series have exactly such a thing, but they tend to be rather... second-rate, for the most part. The main problem with your analogy is that MMOs are hardly story-driven, and we're definitely not playing a game here. 

 

Yes, he has yet to learn what it means to be a true Windrunner. However, this can easily be done off-screen; I seriously don't want to read through half a book every single time he has to take an oath. Give us proof of his growth on-screen, but don't make us read through him realizing various things that already fit into his character and don't do much for it.

 

I do not think the amount of power has to be a criteria to decide as to whether a character is "finished" or not. I also dislike the term "finished" as the only reason I foresee for main characters to vanish out of existence or loose their arc is if they 1) die or 2) the story is actually over.

 

Therefore, as long as he is alive, Kaladin will have an arc in the story of that I am convinced. 

 

What some readers have been reacting upon is how much place must one single character take into a story planned to last for 10 books. One of the reasons most epic fantasies rely on large cast of characters is to avoid over-powering one over the others and to make a plot lasting over several book forward, you need more than one main actor. If your sole character carries on every plot line, he becomes over-used which is dangerous for plausibility: not everything can/need/should happen to the same character. Since the story requires many characters, you need them to be develop to allow the readers to attach themselves to them.

 

Kaladin, as a character, has been massively used and at the core of most story arcs in WoR. The arcs involving his oaths were both massive, much more so than Shallan's. While they are appreciated by many readers, they creates an imbalance.

 

Rotating who occupies the defining place within the climax would be a welcome change: it helps pushing forward other characters which you need, in the long run. It also removes the predictability of Kaladin's entire arc by giving him other arcs to play with. It also helps the readers develop attachment to other characters. It is a problem currently with the Stormlight Archive, the fact the author needs to announce who are his main characters as, just by reading the book, we can't tell. Who is a main character and who isn't should be obvious when reading a story, apart from Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar, it isn't obvious with SA. It is somewhat very strange.