The Invested Beard Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 So here's the thing. This argument all comes down to an author's tightrope walk between creating a believable world and sticking to his own convictions. One of the things that you have to consider is that the intellectually honest person (no matter what their moral leanings) is going to have to admit that whether or not they like it, certain things that go against their own convictions exist in the world and should be represented. As a Christian myself I feel it is especially tragic when other Christians try to pretend that just because they don't believe it's right it doesn't exist. It's like a little kid with his hands over his ears and yelling "I can't hear you!" at the voice of reality. To be an adult is to be able to know the world for what it is and try to present why how you see things is a good way of seeing them. I can't fault Brandon for including stuff like this because to make his world feel authentic, he needs to include "bad things". I had a very interesting background to say the least before cleaning my act up, so this may be why seeing things like this doesn't bother me. Just my two cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Seon Posted February 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Brandon doesnt ignore world occurrences but he doesnt just flat out express them either. I just dont want this to become a bigger issue. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mestiv Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 ... ... ... ...okay. Glad to know that homeschoolers are apparently the paragon of prudishness now. o.O This is not what I meant. I wanted to say that people schooled in schools, not homes, are exposed to far worse language than that presented by Wayne. Homeschooled kids probably know curses just as well, however it's likely that they don't hear them as often. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Invested Beard Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Brandon doesnt ignore world occurrences but he doesnt just flat out express them either. I just dont want this to become a bigger issue. Right, but I would say that the language that you point out is pretty low on the scale. Elantris spoiler below: I mean how is depicting a naked man smeared with blood sacrificing a young woman with a knife not expressing something horrible flat out? In comparison the word d@#$less seems pretty petty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Seon Posted February 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 (edited) Not to get off subject but 1) i wasnt home schooled and yes i know you werent accusing me. Just wanted to clarify. 2) i know that school and real life is worse than wayne, but thats the reason i have more fingers than i have real friends. I cant handle being in a room where over 50% of dialogue is either a curse or a slang term and disgusting joke. 3) elantris example is not specific. It says general events without explaining the specific look on the person. But yes it is low on the scale but elantris example isnt even on it. Edited February 9, 2016 by Navy Seon 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Could it be that over the course of the three books so far, Wayne has gotten progressively more screen and dialogue time? And when I state that I mean extended conversation with multiple characters to which he is not already well acquainted with. Marasi is new, and Steris he despises, so spending extended time with each is going to compel a different level of interaction from him. Just my two cents 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natiels Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 For what it's worth I agree with the OP on the point that in this book Wayne was more vulgar than in either of the other two books. I didnt feel like it was out of character or such an increase that it seemed abnormal or "too vulgar", but i definitely noticed it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pestis the Spider Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 I have to say I haven't noticed Wayne was vulgar at all, even after I found this thread. So basically I mean that Wayne is not vulgar enough for me to even notice it, and far too little vulgar for me to consider it any problem. I find swears and vulgar words rather offensive and uncomfortable in real life, but when I read books I generally don't have any issue with them. I also tend to read a lot of rather dark fiction, so I guess I'm just used to it. Actually, my mind is already so broken that I still struggle to understand why Cosmere novels are considered adult fiction and not YA... And I am also personally really glad that Brandon decided to create his own fake swear words for these books (vide 'Rusts and Ruin'). I think that because of the events presented in the book, the characters need to swear at least to some degree to feel authentic. I am aware that not everyone is as accepting to vulgarity in books as I am. Therefore I think that fake swears are perfect, because they show the mental state of the character, but do not unnecessarily offend the readers. But that's all just my personal opinion, so feel free to disagree if you wish to. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Seon Posted February 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 I am a little confused, are you saying you like swearing in books or fake swearing? Because it doesnt sound like you are arguing. You prefer fake swearing, so do i. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pestis the Spider Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Sorry, I did not explain myself propepryl Seriously sorry for confusion I am not saying that I like swearing in books. It's not like I read books beacue I like to look at swears, no. I just really don't mind swearing in books and I also think that often swearing is necessary for the book to feel authentic. But, no. I do not prefer fake swearing. I don't have preference as long as everything sounds more or less authentic. But I am glad that Brandon decided to use fake swearing instead of no swearing at all. I really think that this book needs some swearing, even if it's fake. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emphimas Posted February 11, 2016 Report Share Posted February 11, 2016 (edited) I agree with the opening post, i definitely noticed the increase of vulgarity even if some people are not sensitive to such- it did increase. Now, i'm a diehard Brandon Sanderson fan, but i have to admit that this was the first time i was disappointed with some of the language. There were quite a few scenes with a naked MeLaan, Wayne wanting to see sexy sister action, staring and commenting on MeLaan and Staris's breasts etc- not to mention what happened on the train. No other characters had this problem throughout the book, but each time there was dialogue with Wayne or MeLaan i was just hoping that the unnecessary sexual innuendos and references would stop. And it has nothing to do with naviete, and everything to do with the fact that i want to be able to share these books with my children- yes there are all sorts of dark events and evil things, but this has never before been portrayed as even semi-acceptable behavior by a beloved character. Yes, dirty old men exist, but rusts and colors, leave them out of our stormblessedly clean Cosmere of hilarious and fake swearing. Edited February 11, 2016 by Emphimas 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navy Seon Posted February 11, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2016 (edited) Thanks emphimas. Finally someone who straight out agrees with me. Here is your first like. Welcome to 17th shard. Edited February 11, 2016 by Navy Seon 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 Welp, one delayed flight later, I am back with WoR in front of me. Abd I can't find the scene O_O Anyone have the chapter number? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senor Feesh Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 Welp, one delayed flight later, I am back with WoR in front of me. Abd I can't find the scene O_O Anyone have the chapter number? I can try having a look when I get home from work - is it definitely WoR and not WoK? She travels with Thaylens in both books. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Windrunner Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 I don't understand why language or sexual references are a hangup for some people. Sure it is "adult," I won't argue against that, but there are plenty more adult themes in the books. Why is a word more offensive than violent scenes of torture, mass murder, and the twisting of people's souls? If I want to protect a child from one, I'd definitely want them to avoid the other as well. Kids are certainly, at least here in the States, more likely to run across swearwords or sexual situations in day to day life than they are to encounter horrible violence. I'm not denying anyone's right to be offended, but I don't personally understand being offended by one and not the other. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Senor Feesh Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 I don't understand why language or sexual references are a hangup for some people. Sure it is "adult," I won't argue against that, but there are plenty more adult themes in the books. Why is a word more offensive than violent scenes of torture, mass murder, and the twisting of people's souls? If I want to protect a child from one, I'd definitely want them to avoid the other as well. Kids are certainly, at least here in the States, more likely to run across swearwords or sexual situations in day to day life than they are to encounter horrible violence. I'm not denying anyone's right to be offended, but I don't personally understand being offended by one and not the other. It's what's wrong with society today - a nipple is more shocking than a knifing, and 'vile' language is treated worse than a violent assault. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emphimas Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) I don't understand why language or sexual references are a hangup for some people. Sure it is "adult," I won't argue against that, but there are plenty more adult themes in the books. Why is a word more offensive than violent scenes of torture, mass murder, and the twisting of people's souls? If I want to protect a child from one, I'd definitely want them to avoid the other as well. Kids are certainly, at least here in the States, more likely to run across swearwords or sexual situations in day to day life than they are to encounter horrible violence. I'm not denying anyone's right to be offended, but I don't personally understand being offended by one and not the other. Actually that's what's so fascinating. It's not necessarily about the thing that happens, it's why it happens- the intent. If Wax for instance, didn't have such a noble character, and decided that it's time to start using his mistborn powers for selfish reasons like to acquire fame, fortune, sex and other unworthy pursuits then not only are the books 'adult' but they are now teaching that it's okay to use great power for evil purposes. Obviously Wax never does this, nor would Brandon Sanderson ever, ever do this with a hero. The reason we love WoK so much is Kaladins great desire to protect and defend others, even if a violent means must be used. Now, if we know a character is evil in the book, is it understandable that they do terrible things like the bloody torture room in Bands of Mourning? Of course, but the good, honorable people do everything they can to help, save and protect- we look up to them, and our children can too. Back to Wayne's language. There is nothing ennobling, uplifting or encouraging about the scenes i described in the previous post. Did Wayne grow up in a rough fashion? There is no question. Is his behavior toward women ever presented in the book as a terrible thing, or something he is working on? No, it is not. If he ever said something like, "I know i shouldn't treat women so, but it's so hard not to" or some such then you can get the idea that this is not acceptable behavior. Wax does do this in Bands of Mourning by convincing MeLaan not to walk through the traps naked, but he doesn't explain why MeLaan should not do it, he just insists that he'll buy her new clothes. This remind's me of Legion. There is a character that is constantly swearing but another character reproves them and encourages him not to swear and he apologizes. Which shows that while some people make bad choices, they are still trying to overcome those weaknesses and be good. Edited February 12, 2016 by Emphimas 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
navybrandt Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 (edited) I also straight out agree with the OP. Now Brandon can write whatever he wants; who am I to say differently. He even writes books geared towards YA or young readers (Steelheart/Alcatraz). But Cosmere books are considered adult, so I'm not even really complaining or saying things should change. It is my preference, however, that all things Cosmere stay fairly clean. So far, I'd let my tween boy read this, but it's pushing the boundaries enough that I feel I must pre-read it before letting him read it (Oh, the torture! ). I tell my Christian friends that Cosmere books do have minor language and plenty of violence and implied sex with nothing graphic. I hope it stays that way. I have 4 children. Two are adults and can read what they want. My youngest daughter has a tender heart, so I don't let her read things that are violent. Cosmere books are not for her as people dying would be too upsetting for her. My youngest son isn't bothered by that, but I try to protect him from sexual content. Here's why. I'm slightly explicit here so used a spoiler tag: Now I'll flat out say that I don't have a problem with language or violence, but sexual content bothers me. I can read about bloody battles or murder all day and never get an urge to hurt someone. I can read curse words all day and never feel I must speak them. Maybe there's something wrong with me or most men are just better men than me, but sexual content affects me. When I read it, it makes me think sexual thoughts. Rothfuss' books, for example, filled me with urges that only my wife could take care of. If you've ever read day 2, you know why. Fortunately, I have a wife and a healthy way to take care of that . Violence and language don't affect me in the same way. Since they are related to me, I assume my children will be affected similarly. So, that is why I feel I need to protect my children from sexual content, but the other stuff in the books are fine. Please be tolerant of my Christian beliefs on abstinence until marriage and monogamy. Edited February 12, 2016 by navybrandt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted February 12, 2016 Report Share Posted February 12, 2016 Just little factoid I'd like to throw in that I found really interesting when I read it, but accounting to Brandon Sanderson, the way publishing companies judge what is "young adult" is by the age of the protagonist. That's why you can have young adult novels with a wide array of content regarding violence, language and sex. So by that definition regarding the publishers, Wax and Wayne aren't young adult. Not saying this is a reason for or against the language, just something I thought was interesting, and could provoke some thought in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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