secret history A certain religious belief

[emailanimal]

I am going to quote the wiki on Ym's religious belief: (http://coppermind.net/wiki/Ym)

 

Religious Belief

 

He believes, long ago, there was only one being which he simply calls One. One knew everything but had experienced nothing. And so One became Many in order to experience all things. As each experience is different, it brings completeness to One. Eventually, all will be gathered back in when the sum of land is attained and they will once again become One. Every person is a different mind of a single being experiencing different lives. As Many, they need ignorance. Each fragment of the One’s mind has its own body with different passions and inclinations. They exist in variety to experience all kinds of thought. That means some people must know and others must not. Just like some people must be rich and others poor. This is why he is interested in collecting other people's experiences.

 

In light of Khriss's words on who Shattered Adonalsium, I think, this needs a revisit.

 

When I first read the Ym Interlude I felt that this was *way too close* to the truth to ignore it. There is a mystery of how such a belief - easily describing a version of the Shattering - could have reached Ym.  But now, after Khriss's revelation, I want to go back to this and ask a question: what if this is indeed  a version of a description of the Shattering?

 

If it is the case (and I think it is the case), then, the second line there: "One knew everything but experienced nothing"  appears to be crucially important.  Beyond Khriss's description of the motivations of the 16, this is the only possible evidence of what that motivation might have been. Or, alternatively, the post-Shattering hagiography and apologia.

 

The other important thing to notice is that this belief presents us with two opposite notions: knowledge and experience.

 

 * Adonalsium: omniscent, but not omnipresent

 

 * Shards after the Shattering: omnipresent (collectively) but not omniscent.

 

It also explains why (some) Shards further splinter themselves! (think Endowment - this religion described what she is doing on a daily basis).

 

If there is a master list of questions for Brandon, how about this one: "What would Hoid think about Ym's religion?"

 

Thoughts?

 

(PS. This is, incidentally, why, of all single-Interlude characters thus far I liked Ym over Lift).  

Edited February 2, 2016 by emailanimal

[yurisses]

Honestly, I would like it more if this belief was just a poetic/pretty belief system with no basis in in-universe magic. It seems to address questions greater than the cosmere and the shards and I feel that it is more efficient as a piece of worldbuilding with no Chekhov's gun involved.

 

You are the universe experiencing itself. Someone in the cosmere must have realised it, Adonalsium or no Adonalsium.

[Maya]

It is suspiciously close - although it doesn't need to be exact.

People's beliefs tend to change over time. It wouldn't be too surprising a piece of knowledge of once existing God shattered into 16, to evolve with time and with added some mysticism, couple of parables, etc - to re-emerge as a new belief system.

[Hippocrates]

The "the unexamined life is not worth living" philosophy is pretty prevalent in Brandon's writing, and I agree that the Ym Interlude is one of the most revelatory chapters in any cosmere book (re: the Shattering of Adonalsium and the "Why?" of it all).  I for one see it as essentially a metaphysical "Big Bang."

[The Invested Beard]

So what are we saying here? That Adonalsium asked the 16 to kill him so he could experience everything? Only problem for me here is that he would be dead as Brandon himself has verified that Adonalsium was killed in the shattering. So...

[emailanimal]

So what are we saying here? That Adonalsium asked the 16 to kill him so he could experience everything? Only problem for me here is that he would be dead as Brandon himself has verified that Adonalsium was killed in the shattering. So...

 

 No. Not saying that. I am pretty sure that the 16 have conspired to kill Adonalsium against AdonalsiumHolder's will.  

 

 What I am saying is this: Adonalsium is dead. The 16 Shards were alive.  Post-Shattering, they were the ones controlling religious thought. Ym's entire religious systems sounds like the apologia for what they did.  Or maybe - like the reasoning behind why it was necessary to do so (objectively or subjectively).

 

  But more importantly, I think this religion contains another interesting observation: that Shattering into 16 Shards is not enough. The belief is in fact that eventually a piece of the One shall be found in every sentient being.  So, this is reasoning behind the Shards splintering themselves.  Remember the "there is a part of Preservation in every human on Scadrial", or that Endowment gives everyone born on Nalthis a Breath.  

[AerionBFII]

I've always had a theory that Adonalsium kind of functioned like a human,

with different aspects, Odium was his Rage, Honor was his sense of Honor, Devotion was loyalty, Autonomy Free will.. ect

and when those assholes Shattered him they each got an aspect.

 

What gets me though were there originally 16 waiting to be Shardholders or were there more maneuvering and backstabbing

It just strikes me that they got it pretty much exact, from a WOB i found but cant find now says that Rayse specifically and intentionally chose Odium. So they must have had some foreknowledge of Adonalsium's aspects and how many Shards it would make when Shattered.

[emailanimal]

I've always had a theory that Adonalsium kind of functioned like a human,

with different aspects, Odium was his Rage, Honor was his sense of Honor, Devotion was loyalty, Autonomy Free will.. ect

and when those assholes Shattered him they each got an aspect.

 

What gets me though were there originally 16 waiting to be Shardholders or were there more maneuvering and backstabbing

It just strikes me that they got it pretty much exact, from a WOB i found but cant find now says that Rayse specifically and intentionally chose Odium. So they must have had some foreknowledge of Adonalsium's aspects and how many Shards it would make when Shattered.

 

 There is a WoB that says that for a different group of people Adonalsium could have shattered in a different way. So I took it to mean that the actual Intents formed at the moment of Shattering - or to be exact, when the 16 tried to take power.

 

But you raise a good point - how many people were actually trying to go for a Shard, and what did they know about taking a Shard before hand. Hoid, by all accounts, was there, but he was not an explicit part of the cause that Shattered Adonalsium (based on WoBs and what Leras says about Cephandrius in Secret History). But perhaps there were indeed more than 16, but only 16 succeeded.

[Senor Feesh]

Rayse specifically and intentionally chose Odium. So they must have had some foreknowledge of Adonalsium's aspects and how many Shards it would make when Shattered.

 

Or, perhaps, something about the method or the participants of the Shattering determined the Intents. Or perhaps the Intent of each Shard was clear post-Shattering, and they all had some time afterwards to discuss it, and Rayse took one look at Odium and said "That one." There's a few ways that could be interpreted.

[natc]

It appears that ascending with a shard requires some degree of Connection to it, so perhaps his surprisingly compatible personality just landed him Odium.

I don't recall anything about him specifically choosing Odium, just that he prefers being Odium over taking up another intent to boost his power. Hence splintering people instead of taking their shards and trying to do something with them.

[emailanimal]

Or, perhaps, something about the method or the participants of the Shattering determined the Intents. Or perhaps the Intent of each Shard was clear post-Shattering, and they all had some time afterwards to discuss it, and Rayse took one look at Odium and said "That one." There's a few ways that could be interpreted.

 

 This is exactly the point I was trying to make. Based on what we know, I think it is a reasonable assumption that what specific Intent the powers they were taking manifested formed at the moment they stepped into the "ring" and was based on Connection to a specific aspect of Adonalsium (and also was constrained by what the other 15 were taking).

[Khyrindor]

What if Ym's religion is not based off of the Shattering, but after Adonalsium's Investiture. Think about it, Adonalsium created the original humans, and presumably the first planet. Everything he made was made with Investiture. The Shards continued this after the Splintering, but what if that's what Investiture really was? Adonalsium experiencing his creation.

[RandomSpeculation]

I always thought the Ym story started from a fact(the shattering of Adonalsium) and over lots of time evolved into a belief system, which would explain discrepancies in the story from the event.  

 

As far as the creation of the shards, I agree with what emailanimal said.  The shard each received is tied to the INTENT each vessel had at the moment of the shattering.  I think each knew they would gain some power, but did not explicitly choose a shard.  Rayse was involved because of his hatred of Adonalsium, and ended up with odium.  Others were involved out of their sense of duty, desire for free will, and the shards were created to match the intent of their owners.  This would explain the WoB saying the shattering could have been different if a different group did the shattering.

 

*Edit*  I just remembered it was stated that Ati was originally a kind man, so maybe something else was going on.

 

*Edit2* It could be that by the time they finished the shattering, Ati's mind was focused on the RUIN they were causing.  Did I mention I love how much info this short little novel gave us to speculate over.

Edited February 6, 2016 by RandomSpeculation

[mail-mi]

As far as the creation of the shards, I agree with what emailanimal said.  The shard each received is tied to the INTENT each vessel had at the moment of the shattering.  I think each knew they would gain some power, but did not explicitly choose a shard.  Rayse was involved because of his hatred of Adonalsium, and ended up with odium.  Others were involved out of their sense of duty, desire for free will, and the shards were created to match the intent of their owners.  This would explain the WoB saying the shattering could have been different if a different group did the shattering.

 

Then how did a Preservation shard come to fruition, even though what they were doing was the exact opposite of Preserving something? 

[emailanimal]

Then how did a Preservation shard come to fruition, even though what they were doing was the exact opposite of Preserving something? 

 

 What mattered was Leras's Intent and Connection. Whatever they were, they were enough for him to become Preservation.  Essentially, he may have been motivated by his desire to protect someone or something, and saw taking up a Shard as the only way to do so. That would translate to Preservation.

[RandomSpeculation]

Think of it not as WHAT they did but WHY they did it.  As a random example, perhaps Leras became involved because he wanted the power to preserve the life of a loved one who was sick and dying. 

[Maya]

I've had this theory myself as well, ever since this "Intent" term kept rubbing in my mind. I mean, why Intent of all words - there are so many other words that could be used to describe it - essence, nature, core, etc - but it seems they were not accurate enough.

And later Khriss just hammer home the point with:
 

“A diverse group,” she said. “With equally diverse motives."

 
pretty much confirming that the Shard's Intents mirror the motive, the state of being, of every person of the original 16 at Adonalsium's shattering. Thus if other group of people had done it, the shards would've been different.
 
Why they felt they have to do that, (the power hungry aside) is entirely different matter, one i can't wait to discover and i suspect we'll learn a lot about Hoid's Intents around it too.
 

[Lupis]

Think of it not as WHAT they did but WHY they did it.  As a random example, perhaps Leras became involved because he wanted the power to preserve the life of a loved one who was sick and dying. 

Or possibly the 16 realised what was happening, Adonalsium was about to pull all of its splinters back into itself, which would effectively make everyone cease to exist as individuals, and they decided not to let that happen.

[Iarwainiel I]

Every time I read Ym's beliefs, I think of Babylon 5 (TV show from the 90s) - it's very close to Foundationism on B5, and also to some Minbari beliefs. It makes me wonder if Brandon is / was a fan of B5.

[Frostlander]

Think of it not as WHAT they did but WHY they did it.  As a random example, perhaps Leras became involved because he wanted the power to preserve the life of a loved one who was sick and dying. 

Maybe that's who Senna is/was...