There's not nearly enough salt about [Secret History Spoilers]

[Purelake Earthquake]

When I characterize Kelsier as being ego-driven and casting himself as the savior, I'm taking into account Vin's very insightful parting words to him about not really knowing what love is. It speaks to how Kelsier views his actions. He requires validation and that validation is what makes him feel "love." Which is clearly what he got in the South. Except that that version of love was adulation and deification by the people he saved. It's kind of icky.

 

If this were the case, what's he done during the three hundred years after he left the south.  People like you describe need constant validation, but it doesn't look like he's seeking that.  Granted, he could be doing this again off-world, but from what I've seen I don't think he'd have left for a long time unless it was directly concerned with affairs on Scadrial (hunting down Trell's homeworld, the Ire, or something like that.)

 

Besides, Vin's last words were "How much of what you've done was about love, and how much was about proving something?"  To which Kelsier says that he doesn't know.  This suggests those two motivations for him are so intertwined, it's hard to tell why exactly he's doing everything.  The fact that he's now confronting this issue makes me think that he's going to get better about it.

 

 

 

The more I think about the events in Southern Scadrial the less I think Kelsier is going out there setting out to be this divine savior figure.  First, he's not even going as himself, he's impersonating the Lord Ruler.  This could be because it was the only way to get all the southerns to unite and listen to him.  But really, either way, how're you going to go about giving a bunch of magical gifts to save a whole society on the brink of disaster without them winding up worshiping you to some respect.  It would probably take a lot more effort to try and avoid that scenario.

 

Actually, I think Kelsier would be getting more enjoyment from essential pulling a giant con on all these people than he does from their adoration.

 

 

EDIT: I found the part where Vin says Kelsier doesn't understand love.  I wasn't looking that far back in the conversation, my bad.  First she says, "You've got a lot to learn about love, don't you?"  then she says "And you do love.  I know you do.  But at the same time I don't think you understand it." 

Edited February 4, 2016 by Purelake Earthquake

[Shardbearer]

I don't think Kelsier was trying to impersonate TLR. Wax and crew assume that the Soverign is TLR from the context of their conversation with Al, but that may only be because that's the most logical leap to take when they say that he was their "king and god".

[lordofsoup]

While Kel would love the fanfare of his return to the world of the living, I dont think he would enjoy being the Lord Ruler.  He would get a kick out of the initial reception but thats probably it.  He cant sit still long enough to enjoy it, and without the challenge of facing insurmountable odds, he would quickly get bored.  I think he's either with Khriss and Nazh or he is hunting the Hoid, maybe both.  Im sure that the main reason he came back is because he knew people like feather would be mad about it.  The helping people came later.

[Pathfinder]

I feel so much of what Kelsier does or accomplishes is first self/ego driven, that somehow ends up benefiting others. When he stuck around and didn't pass on, it wasn't to protect or help anyone, it was a "wait, so I am dead but not totally dead. So basically your telling me I have a chance to not die die? Lets go with that option then". That lead him to happen to be in the right place to find out about Ruin. Ruin would muck up his whole staying "alive" deal so he wants to stop that. Then he realizes that it would destroy the people he cares about, So the two goals align. The rest is about him finding a way to "survive", and snubbing the big evil (from his perspective) snide god, with helping his friends a close second. So his primary always seems to be "how can this help me?", then after that "as this helps me, does this help others too? ok cool then lets go with that".

[+Authweight]

I think the key thing thematically is that Kelsier is the Survivor. He survived the pits, and now he's survived death at the hands of the Lord Ruler. He's all about just keeping on no matter what.

[Purelake Earthquake]

I don't think Kelsier was trying to impersonate TLR. Wax and crew assume that the Soverign is TLR from the context of their conversation with Al, but that may only be because that's the most logical leap to take when they say that he was their "king and god".

 

This could be the case.  Information on the subject seems really sparse.  We technically don't even know for sure that the Sovereign even was Kelsier.  A god that was killed could sorta fit Kelsier, though it still fits TLR better, but the only kings I can think of are TLR, Elend, Penrod, and Spook.  Granted, he doesn't have to be telling the truth or impersonating anyone.  But, this is only tangentially related to my point, I think it still stands regardless.

 

 

 

I feel so much of what Kelsier does or accomplishes is first self/ego driven, that somehow ends up benefiting others. When he stuck around and didn't pass on, it wasn't to protect or help anyone, it was a "wait, so I am dead but not totally dead. So basically your telling me I have a chance to not die die? Lets go with that option then". That lead him to happen to be in the right place to find out about Ruin. Ruin would muck up his whole staying "alive" deal so he wants to stop that. Then he realizes that it would destroy the people he cares about, So the two goals align. The rest is about him finding a way to "survive", and snubbing the big evil (from his perspective) snide god, with helping his friends a close second. So his primary always seems to be "how can this help me?", then after that "as this helps me, does this help others too? ok cool then lets go with that".

 

I don't think Kelsier's main motivation is looking after himself or survival.  Sure, when he turned himself into a cognitive shadow it wasn't to help anyone.  When you're about to get eaten by lions and you run away, that isn't to help anyone either.  He saw a desperate hope and he clung to it.  He was hoping what he'd done was enough that the crew could handle the rest.  Ruin wasn't much of a threat to Kelsier, he left the world, he didn't have to go back.  He wasn't fighting to defeat Ruin, he was just giving Vin the opportunity to do it herself.  No one else even knew the role he played saving the world.

 

Let's look at what got him dead in the first place.  He gave his life so that the rest of the crew would be able to finish the plan on their own.  I'm not convinced that that act in particular was primarily self-motivated.  It was about freeing the people first and leaving a giant legacy aligned with that.  He didn't even believe in an afterlife, so he didn't think he'd be able to enjoy that legacy.  More than looking after himself or trying to survive he cares about accomplishing his goals (and as Vin tells him, trying to prove something),  Those goals are a large part ego, but I think there's a good chunk of caring in there too.  He doesn't just wind up helping others, it's what he sets out to do, along with satisfying his ambition.

[Pathfinder]

 

This could be the case.  Information on the subject seems really sparse.  We technically don't even know for sure that the Sovereign even was Kelsier.  A god that was killed could sorta fit Kelsier, though it still fits TLR better, but the only kings I can think of are TLR, Elend, Penrod, and Spook.  Granted, he doesn't have to be telling the truth or impersonating anyone.  But, this is only tangentially related to my point, I think it still stands regardless.

 

 

 

 

I don't think Kelsier's main motivation is looking after himself or survival.  Sure, when he turned himself into a cognitive shadow it wasn't to help anyone.  When you're about to get eaten by lions and you run away, that isn't to help anyone either.  He saw a desperate hope and he clung to it.  He was hoping what he'd done was enough that the crew could handle the rest.  Ruin wasn't much of a threat to Kelsier, he left the world, he didn't have to go back.  He wasn't fighting to defeat Ruin, he was just giving Vin the opportunity to do it herself.  No one else even knew the role he played saving the world.

 

Let's look at what got him dead in the first place.  He gave his life so that the rest of the crew would be able to finish the plan on their own.  I'm not convinced that that act in particular was primarily self-motivated.  It was about freeing the people first and leaving a giant legacy aligned with that.  He didn't even believe in an afterlife, so he didn't think he'd be able to enjoy that legacy.  More than looking after himself or trying to survive he cares about accomplishing his goals (and as Vin tells him, trying to prove something),  Those goals are a large part ego, but I think there's a good chunk of caring in there too.  He doesn't just wind up helping others, it's what he sets out to do, along with satisfying his ambition.

 

Now this comes down to our own personal interpretation of what occurred, so anything I assert, please do not take me as saying it is wrong, but merely how I came to view Kelsier's actions. You stated that you do not feel Kelsier's main motivation wasn't self and survival. Yet when Leras popped up and said "hey, you get to go be with Mare, which is what you told everyone is what you really wanted. Just let yourself be pulled away to the great beyond." If he wasn't focused on himself, or survival, that sounds like a no brainer to me. But instead, his first thought is, "hmmm I am not as dead as I thought I was, so there is a chance I can stick around, and maybe even go back. Time to pull a con.....". Going to the great beyond isn't being about "eaten by lions", its about getting to come home to a nice bed to rest after a very long and grueling day at work. Or at least that was the imagery I got from Leras. You get to be at peace. As to Ruin being a threat, the very realm Kelsier inhabits is connected to Scadrial, which at that point is the only planet he knows exists. the only  place period he knows exists. If Ruin makes it go poof, what happens to Kelsier? Now we know he could try and find a way to go elsewhere. We know or at least think that if Scadrial goes splodie, the cognitive realm would still exist, just not as Kelsier knows it. But Kelsier doesn't know any of this. All he knows is the planet he is connected to, and wants to return to in a normal body is going to get destroyed because of Ruin. Now I am not saying he doesn't care about his crew members. Nor am I saying his fight against Ruin is not altruistic. I am just saying he doesn't start saying "people are in need, how can i help them?". He starts with "I am in need, how can i help me?" Then after the fact his actions either inadvertently help, or he decides to help along the way. As I type this, I think deep down that is partly why Marsh hated him so much. Marsh genuinely wanted to help people but it didn't always work out. Kelsier doesn't aim to help people, somehow does, and then spins it to make people think that is what he intended all along and they love him for it. 

 

Now like you said, lets look at what got him dead in the first place. When we got his POV in Secret History, it didn't start with "And now I sacrifice myself to give the crew and the skaa a better life". His first thought was "Ok now let me burn malatium to kill the lord ruler. Storms, it didn't work. Well that sucks. Well I got my backup plan which will still screw over the lord ruler and kill him. Ha! oh yeah and people might have a better life. cool!" Again his primary goal was to take out the lord ruler. A side bonus is the people he cares about and the skaa in his mind will benefit. But the primary motivation is again, do the one thing no one else has ever done, kill the lord ruler. Kill a "god". Now this is also not to say that Kelsier does not grow. As he progresses in the story of Secret History I do feel he learns that he is actually a very small fish in a very big pond and that becomes humbling to him. Only thing is, it is not so humbling that at the end he isn't still up to his old antics to find a way to preserve himself by getting a new body and coming back. Just another handy by product is he saves the southern scadrialians. So TLDR, Kelsier may be a "good guy", but he certainly doesn't intend to be in my opinion lol. 

[DreamEternal]

@Pathfinder:

Leras admited he does not know what lies in the Beyond, and nobody ever comes back to tell the tale, so while it was possible for him to find Mare, it was also possible for him to just fade into nothingness. I find it perfectly reasonable to not take the chances.

[Pathfinder]

@Pathfinder:

Leras admited he does not know what lies in the Beyond, and nobody ever comes back to tell the tale, so while it was possible for him to find Mare, it was also possible for him to just fade into nothingness. I find it perfectly reasonable to not take the chances.

That is incorrect. I can quote the passage, but the order of operations was, Kelsier shows up and looks around. Leras shows up, and says souls  go to the great beyond and that mare is there, and then Keliser see other souls, with peaceful happy looks on their face fade away. Kelsier then says he wants to figuire out how to stay. It is only later that Leras admits he does not know what is in the great beyond. 

 

Now I am not saying you did this, but I think I was very nice with how I said I have my own view. Not sure why I was downvoted for it. 

 

edit: thank you to whoever balanced out the downvote. 

Edited February 3, 2016 by Pathfinder

[FeatherWriter]

Well looks like this topic garnered some discussion while I was gone. I'm not going to quote people because it'd be forever, but for the most part, I find myself agreeing greatly with Pathfinder and masaru. Kelsier's primary motivation is self and ego. Even his great sacrifice in TFE is self-driven. It's a revenge scheme against the Lord Ruler, in order to hurt him the way Kelsier himself was hurt. Kelsier is far less concerned about the skaa themselves and more focused on the Empire. 

 

There is, of course, no getting around the fact that this great revenge scheme of his involved intentionally setting himself up as a deity for the skaa to worship. It's not like Survivorism happened by accident because Kelsier did such great things that they revered him. He made sure they were going to see him as a god after he was gone.

 

Vin, I've found, is exceptionally skilled at tearing through the lies that he tells himself and cutting to the quick of the matter. She does it brilliantly, as masaru mentioned, at the end of Secret History, but she's been doing it from the very start. Vin loves Kelsier, but unlike most people, she doesn't get fully taken in by his grandiose persona and charisma. She's exceptionally good at seeing what's really going on with him and calling him out on it.

 

“He’s a nobleman!”

 

“So are you!” Vin snapped. She waved a frustrated arm toward the kitchen and the crew. “What do you think this is, Kelsier? The life of a skaa? What do any of you know about skaa? Aristocratic suits, stalking your enemies in the night, full meals and nightcaps around the table with your friends? That’s not the life of a skaa!”

 

She took a step forward, glaring at Kelsier. He blinked in surprise at the outburst.

 

“What do you know about them, Kelsier?” she asked. “When’s the last time you slept in an alley, shivering in the cold rain, listening to the beggar next to you cough with a sickness you knew would kill him? When’s the last time you had to lay awake at night, terrified that one of the men in your crew would try to rape you? Have you ever knelt, starving, wishing you had the courage to knife the crewmember beside you just so you could take his crust of bread? Have you ever cowered before your brother as he beat you, all the time feeling thankful because at least you had someone who paid attention to you?”

(...)

“Don’t talk to me about noblemen,” Vin said. “And don’t say things about people you don’t know. You’re no skaa—you’re just noblemen without titles.”

-- TFE 31

 

Thus when she calls him out at the end of Secret History, I was cheering along, because she knows what's up. (get rekt kell)

 

I think we're all aware of just how vicious Kelsier's dark side is too. When Kelsier sees skaa suffering and being hurt, his thought process isn't "I need to help them" it's "I need to hurt the person who did this." There's a vast difference. We see it in his very first scene in the skaa hovel. When the skaa girl gets taken, Kelsier doesn't just go rescue her, he goes and kills the nobleman, all of his house guards, and then burns the mansion to the ground. He can justify the way he enjoys killing and such by saying that they deserve it or that they're bad people, but the fact of the matter is Kelsier takes great pride and pleasure in the destruction he wreaks. Ruin's right, Kelsier is very much his creature.

 

Vin stood surrounded by death, bloodied coins dribbling from her stunned fingers. She kept a tight grip on her dagger, however—if only to steady her quivering arm.

 

Kelsier lay a hand on her shoulder, and she jumped.

 

“These were evil men, Vin,” he said. “Every skaa knows in his heart that it is the greatest of crimes to take up arms in defense of the Final Empire.”

 

Vin nodded numbly. She felt…wrong.

--TFE 14

 

Honestly the most telling thing to me is that Kelsier doesn't even really try to justify his decision at the end of Secret History with any kind of altruism or selflessness. He doesn't say "I must stay because the people still need me" or "Preservation charged me with guarding the hearts of men." I think I'd be fine if those were his reasons for staying. He doesn't stay to help the Southern Scadrians, even if that may be what ends up happening. The fact that some good came out of the decision doesn't inherently mean that the decision wasn't selfish (and in my opinion, dumb.)

 

But it's not. He stays because he wants to figure out hemalurgy and the cosmere, as though the world is just some puzzle for him to solve. Kelsier can't let go of the fact that there's always another secret and he needs to be the one to find it. Which, you know what, if he wants to futz about in the Cognitive Realm and try to solve the mysteries of the universe, fine have fun. But when he starts conscripting others to this cause for no other reason than his own curiousity and vanity, I take issue. Especially when said cause apparently involves experimental hemalurgy. Maker's breath, I feel like I'm back in the Dragon Age fandom trying to argue with people that blood magic is a bad thing.

 

Saze doesn't want him to stick around. Vin and Elend didn't want him to stick around. Spook is now the leader of the surviving Northern Scadrians and is tasked with rebuilding civilization. He has better things to do than try to build Kell a new body. But Kelsier uses his Connection with Spook, because Spook believes in him so truly, to serve his own ends and get the boy to do what he wants. 

 

/continues dumping salt in the thread until everyone has been smothered.

[lol_king]

I thought going to spiritual realm probably seemed like giving up to kelsier, and kelsier seems like a guy who never gives up. He wasn't able to stay behind in cognitive realm because of his inherent goodness, but because of his strong will, because he is the Survivor.

Also people saying that he should go to spiritual realm to be with mare, i do not believe that kell being with Mare will bring the world great fortune,or him not being with her will bring some kind of disaster. Sure, most people would choose that option but you can't say he's doing anything wrong by choosing that option, because in the end only one being affected is Kelsier himself.

Also, him messing around in the background doesn't seem so bad when compared to the set or the IRE messing around when they do not even belong to scadrial. At least scadrial has someone in the know who is not bound by harmony's rules (and not bent on taking over the world).

Just because he's our protagonist doesn't mean he has to be completely selfless, working for the better of the world. He doesn't have to move on just because his goal is accomplished. That would make being a good guy more of a punishment - your work is done now just go and die, we don't need you anymore. Keeping your goals above others is the normal thing to do, not the other way around, this makes him more realistic as he's doing it subconciously like we all do. We got ouserlves an ideal selfless protagonist in Vin, Kel doesn't need to be the same.

Edited February 3, 2016 by lol_king

[Nahema]

Well, I a m dissappointed. Of the whole afterlife arc. Kelsier is a wonderful character and I love him. Usually, when authors let (main) characters die, I am furious because in most cases it is just a cheap trick. Kelsier's death made sense, it was a perfect conclusion. And even though I was devastated, I still felt it was right.

When he returned in HoA and later, I felt/feel betrayed. Secret history is a wonderful book and a wonderful Kelsier. But it a wrong book for me, as for me it belittles his arc in LE. And that makes me sad.

[Ryshadium]

I prefer Kelsier to Vin as a character. Kelsier knows that Vin is/was probably a better person than he was. But he also basically saved Preservation for her. He didn't really have to do that, and if he were working solely for disown purposes and ego, I don't think he would have done that, or let it go. His awareness of his own failings makes him human, incredibly likable, and incredibly frustrating, and I would rather read about his post-death dealings than any more words about Vin.

His story was not over, nor is it over. And that's a pretty perfect place for Kell to be. Vin's story was over, and she knew it, and she moved to the Beyond. Whether his motivation is selfless doesn't matter much to me. He was never shown as a selfless character, and I don't know why we should expect him to be so after he died. Especially since he's basically been living inside his own head for centuries.

[Purelake Earthquake]

@Pathfinder

 

You're totally right about the malatium, That part just slipped my mind.  I don't think he placed too much trust in it, though.  He put on airs of confidence about it with the crew, but he really had no clue what it would do.  His backup plans were quite extensive, and he clearly put a lot of forethought into them.  I get the impression that he didn't put that much stock in the 11th metal when he went to fight the Lord Ruler.  He'd already resolved himself to death.

 

About fighting Ruin, I was referring to once he was visiting the Ire.  This point really isn't about his altruism though.  I kind of get the impression that some people feel that because Kelsier is the Survivor, it's almost like surviving is his Intent or something.  But, if Kelsier cares about self-preservation at all, he's really bad at it.  He never takes the safe route.  You could define surviving as surviving the impossible, which fits him much better.

 

Back to my take on things.  Once he died Kelsier's whole world was turned around.  He had no reason to believe or trust Fuzz (he's always had problems with authority).  The whole scene with people stretching out of existence, through Kelsier's POV, actually seemed a little horrifying to me.  My point here is does he need a reason to continue living?  When he's in the cognitive realm he's not quite dead, whatever the Beyond is, it's still death.  That's what I was trying to get at with the lion comparison.  A person on the brink of death doesn't need a reason to avoid it.  In my mind Kelsier's just a LOT closer to the brink, but the scenario's still the same.

 

Here's my revised opinion on Kell now.  So much of what we see Kell do is premeditated, he's a planner.  He can still be impulsive or instinctual and run on the fly with next to no information (see: almost all of Secret History).  So, when he decides he's going to take down TLR or possibly become a martyr to the cause in order to ignite a revolt, it's hard to pin down where exactly his motivation lies.  My take on it is that when he decides what he's going to do he tries to strike a balance.  He's going an optimization problem trying to find what he can do that both benefits himself and others.  I don't know how much weight he places on each of those factors, but I think it's a good deal of both.  So, less of one coming before the other, but he decides what to do based on a combination of the two.  Once he's decided he goes all out on accomplishing that.  Most of the time he's been lucky enough that those two interests align really well.  It'd be interesting to see what he does when they don't.

 

 

 

Response to Feather:

 

Kelsier, didn't believe in an afterlife before, I don't see a reason for him to believe in it now.  Especially since everyone admits it might just be oblivion.   You're topic wasn't about these other things, primary point being mad at him for not going Beyond.  Saying that that is selfish and dumb is what I have the most issues with.  In fact sticking around's not really a decision, since he's already stabilized himself in the cognitive realm.  Now, I don't know how any of the mechanics work there, so I don't know how he would go about getting unstuck, but it would involve a conscious decision. How exactly is sticking around selfish?  It doesn't do anything bad, and it give him the opportunity to do good things.  I would probably make a similar decision in that scenario, and I do believe in an afterlife.

 

You don't need a selfless reason to keep on living.  If you're dead you can't do any good, that's kind of a given.  He doesn't need to think "I need to stay alive so I can do this important thing", it can be "I need to stay alive so I can be alive and do things.  Oh look, I can do this important thing now".

 

I never really got the vibe that Kelsier was doing it all for revenge.  It felt like he viewed TLR more as a force rather than a person.  I got the sense that he cared more about, what Vin said, proving something.

 

Vin is a great influence on Kelsier.

 

Kell did intentionally lay the seeds for a religion to grow up around him.  But it's not like it was tangential to his plans, it was kind of a key point to it all.  Using this was the best way he could come up with to free the people

 

About him co-opting Spook.  Everybody needs a hobby.  We saw that he did a fine job running the empire, there were problems, but I don't think they were because he was distracted.  Sometimes a guy just needs to go to his garage on Saturdays and work on his artificial host body to unwind.  (He did complain about the normalcy).  Seriously though, messing with Hemalurgy is probably not the best idea, but it's not inherently bad.  Based, on the timeline, it doesn't seem like he and Spook were working on it for very long.

 

Looking back on the epilogue, it seems Spook's grown more of a backbone.  He's not letting Kelsier push him around for his own goals, instead Kelsier's offering him intriguing possibilities, such as immortality.  Perhaps their both foolish for messing around with this stuff.  But Spook's not being tricked or pressured into getting inolved with the foolishness.

 

There's also some more information I found on this whole scenario in the epilogue.  Kell says he wants to "unravel the mysteries of the universe" and that it is "vital".  But why is he doing this?  It's not just for fun or to solve a puzzle.  This is what he told Spook, "Ignorance almost lost us everything, I'm not going to let that happen again."  Kelsier knows that there's bigger threats out there and he wants to be prepared for them.  There you have it, a good reason for him to stick around and 'meddle' with everything.

 

EDIT: Sorry, one more thing.  I can't find anything about Vin and Elend not wanting Kelsier to stick around.

 

 

Well, this went on longer than I was expecting.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Purelake Earthquake

[SnakeBlood]

Response to Feather:

 

Kelsier, didn't believe in an afterlife before, I don't see a reason for him to believe in it now.  Especially since everyone admits it might just be oblivion.   You're topic wasn't about these other things, primary point being mad at him for not going Beyond.  Saying that that is selfish and dumb is what I have the most issues with.  In fact sticking around's not really a decision, since he's already stabilized himself in the cognitive realm.  Now, I don't know how any of the mechanics work there, so I don't know how he would go about getting unstuck, but it would involve a conscious decision. How exactly is sticking around selfish?  It doesn't do anything bad, and it give him the opportunity to do good things.  I would probably make a similar decision in that scenario, and I do believe in an afterlife.

 

You don't need a selfless reason to keep on living.  If you're dead you can't do any good, that's kind of a given.  He doesn't need to think "I need to stay alive so I can do this important thing", it can be "I need to stay alive so I can be alive and do things.  Oh look, I can do this important thing now".

 

I never really got the vibe that Kelsier was doing it all for revenge.  It felt like he viewed TLR more as a force rather than a person.  I got the sense that he cared more about, what Vin said, proving something.

 

Vin is a great influence on Kelsier.

 

Kell did intentionally lay the seeds for a religion to grow up around him.  But it's not like it was tangential to his plans, it was kind of a key point to it all.  Using this was the best way he could come up with to free the people

 

About him co-opting Spook.  Everybody needs a hobby.  We saw that he did a fine job running the empire, there were problems, but I don't think they were because he was distracted.  Sometimes a guy just needs to go to his garage on Saturdays and work on his artificial host body to unwind.  (He did complain about the normalcy).  Seriously though, messing with Hemalurgy is probably not the best idea, but it's not inherently bad.  Based, on the timeline, it doesn't seem like he and Spook were working on it for very long.

 

Looking back on the epilogue, it seems Spook's grown more of a backbone.  He's not letting Kelsier push him around for his own goals, instead Kelsier's offering him intriguing possibilities, such as immortality.  Perhaps their both foolish for messing around with this stuff.  But Spook's not being tricked or pressured into getting inolved with the foolishness.

 

There's also some more information I found on this whole scenario in the epilogue.  Kell says he wants to "unravel the mysteries of the universe" and that it is "vital".  But why is he doing this?  It's not just for fun or to solve a puzzle.  This is what he told Spook, "Ignorance almost lost us everything, I'm not going to let that happen again."  Kelsier knows that there's bigger threats out there and he wants to be prepared for them.  There you have it, a good reason for him to stick around and 'meddle' with everything.

 

EDIT: Sorry, one more thing.  I can't find anything about Vin and Elend not wanting Kelsier to stick around.

 

 

Well, this went on longer than I was expecting.

Perrty much this, I don't think Feather is treating death with the weight it deserves.

Edited February 4, 2016 by SnakeBlood

[FeatherWriter]

Perrty much this, I don't think Feather is treating death with the weight it deserves.

 

From my perspective, Kelsier is dead. If anyone's not doing death correctly, it's Kell himself. Cognitive Shadows are not alive to me. They are within the scope of the afterlife and are no longer living. I don't believe that the Beyond is oblivion, because I don't see much reason or proof that it might be. The Shards seem to think that there's something there, and I'm inclined to trust them, for the most part. Besides, Kelsier and the other souls feel a pull towards it. I don't feel like utter annihilating nothingness would draw people to it. Unless it was some kind of cosmic spiritual black hole I guess.

 

But I don't believe that because, though Brandon is great at yanking our emotions, I feel like "there is no happy afterlife and all your faves who died are destroyed and no longer exist" isn't an emotion yank, it's just bad. These characters go through enough. I think they get a happy eternity.

 

However, returning to Kelsier, and staying on topic. Feel free to provide quotes if I'm misremembering, but I didn't get the sense that Kelsier was afraid of the Beyond. Not at first and not when Vin and Elend and the others left. If anything, at first he seemed annoyed by it. "No I still have things I want to do, where's the snooze button on the afterlife???" sort of thing.

 

With Vin and Elend he doesn't try to panickedly convince them "No! Stop! You don't know what's out there! What if you're gone forever? You should stay with me!" He seems more bewildered that they don't want to stay like he does, but he certainly doesn't seem to think they're "dying" again by moving on to the Beyond. His concern is that they're not going to be with him rather than that they're going to cease existing.

 

 

“No, Vin. You held the power. You don’t have to go.”

 

“I know,” she said, looking back over her shoulder at him.

 

“Please,” Kelsier said. “Don’t go. Stay. With me.”

 

“Ah, Kelsier,” she said. “You have a lot to learn about love, don’t you?”

--M:SH 6-8

 

Anyway, from what I saw, Kelsier doesn't seem to be afraid of the Beyond so much as he doesn't want to be inconvenienced by it. That quote is, by the way, Purelake, my reasoning that Vin thinks Kelsier should move on.

 

I love the way she phrases it, "you have a lot to learn" like she's speaking to a child. As though his insistence on clinging to the Cognitive Realm is childish and immature, but she can't really fault him for not really understanding. (geeettttt reeekkkkttttttttt) It's beautiful, honestly. Go Vin. I'm in total agreement with her. 

[Meg]

@Feather: 

I think it would be more clear what you want to show with that quote if you'd start it some paragraphs before you did: 

 

Vin looked to Elend. To Kelsier’s horror, he had begun to stretch out. He turned toward something Kelsier couldn’t see, something Beyond, and smiled, then stepped in that direction.
“I don’t think it works that way, Saze,” Vin said, then kissed him on the cheek. “Thank you.” She turned, took Elend’s hand, and began to stretch toward that unseen, distant point.
“Vin!” Kelsier cried, grabbing her other hand, holding to it. “No, Vin. You held the power. You don’t have to go.”
“I know,” she said, looking back over her shoulder at him.
“Please,” Kelsier said. “Don’t go. Stay. With me.”
“Ah, Kelsier,” she said. “You have a lot to learn about love, don’t you?”
“I know love, Vin. Everything I’ve done—the fall of the empire, the power I’ve given up—that was all about love.”
She smiled. “Kelsier. You are a great man, and should be proud of what you’ve done. And you do love. I know you do. But at the same time, I don’t think you understand it.”
She turned her gaze toward Elend, who was vanishing, only his hand—in hers—still visible.

--M:SH 6-8

 

 

 

 

I've added some emphasizes to show what I mean: To Vin her loving Elend is the most important thing. His apparent decision is not to stay, hence Vin doesn't want to stay. Why should she part from Elend? She'd done her part and that's it. Also I think that Vin never was so driven to do her part than Kelsier was (what his motives have been is not important here). Vin didn't literally decide consciously to become a godlike hero. Kelsier on the other hand did. Thus it has been easy for Vin to put her love to Elend over the *greater good* (oh, how I hate that term). 

 

That is why she suggests that Kelsier has to learn a lot about love: Elend moves on, so she moves on. Her suggestion implies that Kelsier should also prioritize his love to Mare over his (selfish) wishes to stay meddling. 

 

Though I don't like Kelsier that much, in MSH a bit more than in TFE, I can see that his love to Mare hasn't the same weight for him as Vin's love to Elend has for her. Mare is long since dead, the emotions are more about his loss than the original love. 

 

I see that this sounds a bit like defending Kelsier which is not really my intention. 

I just think that this part of Vin-oh-I'm-so-serene-now doesn't really show Kelsier's selfishness.

 

(Uhm, yes, I admit, I never liked Vin and that didn't change with her *last words*. That doesn't mean that her getting at Kelsier as shown in those previous quotes of Feather has no justification, on the contrary.) 

 

[Purelake Earthquake]

My understanding of the Beyond, and the God Beyond for that matter, is based on the fact that Brandon tries to write his stories so that they don't contradict any of the reader's belief systems.  I think he talks about this kind of stuff when people ask him about Jasnah and writing about beliefs other than his own.  He doesn't want atheists to see all these gods running around and think that Brandon's saying with his books that religion is true.  On the same note he doesn't want theists to see that those gods running around, who are essential just really powerful people, and think that he's using them as a replacement for an actual God.  He also describes writing his magic systems as adding a few new laws of physics to the universe (for him it's Realmatics, Investiture, and attributes like Connection), so far the Beyond doesn't seem to fit with any of these rules added, it's not in any of the three realms.  That's why it's the Beyond, it's beyond the three realms and all of the Cosmere.  Brandon saying, "Hey everyone, in my universe, the afterlife is real, that's just the way it's going to be," would feel kind of cheap to me.  He doesn't want anyone to have to set aside their own beliefs to enjoy the story.

 

This is how I've always interpreted the Beyond, ever since HoA.  Asking if there's an afterlife in the Cosmere would be the same as asking if there's an afterlife in real life.  Some people say yes, some people say no, and there's no direct evidence one way or the other.  That's the beauty of the system, I can read it and think that they're all reunited, but Jasnah could read it and think that the Beyond is a comforting lie, and what's important is the time they spent together.  This is only my interpretation, but I think it's pretty grounded.

 

It doesn't matter if I think the Beyond is a happy afterlife, and it doesn't matter what Sazed thinks (because what Sazed thinks is just that).  All that matters is what Kelsier thinks. he never believed before, and I can't imagine that changing much.  I wasn't expecting to find a quote that shows how he feels so well, but I dug one up, from the first chapter when he's "recruiting" Fuzz and he's starting to slip away:

 

 Time was running out: he could feel himself sliding toward oblivion, a distant point of nothingness, dark and unknowable.

 

I don't think he needs to be afraid of the Beyond, he wasn't that afraid of death either, and he thought that ended with nothing also.  That doesn't mean he should jump into it for no reason.  He already preserved himself when he went into the Well, I don't think he feels the pull of the Beyond anymore.

 

 

Kelsier seemed plenty living to me, though this is more subject to interpretation.  Preservation describes going through the Cognitive Realm after death as a transitory state; it's between life and death.  They also talk about the three parts of a person, body, mind, and soul.  Kell's body died, but his mind and soul are still fine, if I'm understanding everything correctly.  Fuzz compares Kelsier to a kite without a string, where the string is his body which ties him to the physical realm.  If this metaphor is close to accurate it doesn't seem like the body is an integral part of what makes a person alive, it's just what lets them interact with the regular world.  I'm not sure what exactly you mean by being alive.  If we base it on actions and self-awareness, he doesn't seem any different than when he had a body.  If you just mean that he's broken the natural order of life and death, yeah he did that, but it's already been done. In my mind, once he goes in the Well, he's already come back from the death.  What's done is done, it would seem counterproductive to just go ahead and die just because he finished saving the world.  I can't even think of a way that he could go Beyond anymore that wasn't directly suicide (I don't think he can just let go or will it).  So in a sense, going Beyond at this point, would be going against the natural order again.  The stream's already been diverted, this is the way it's going now.

 

 

I don't really see any way that that quote could have anything to do with Kelsier moving on.  First off, during the whole conversation between Vin and him, Kelsier continuing to stay in the cognitive realm isn't even mentioned.  The closest it comes is when Vin first confronts Kelsier and says, "Oh, Kelsier.  You always did make your own rules."  That's it.  During the whole conversation, nothing is said at all about the possibility of Kell going beyond.  So, I don't think Vin, in that quote, would be indicating disapproval about a topic she never even broached.  So instead of "You've got a lot to learn about love," referring to something Vin hasn't expressed any interest in, I think she's referring what they were just talking about, Kell wanting to keep Vin there with him.I think what Kell doesn't know about love here, is letting people go.  An important thing Vin learned was when she didn't use the power to save Elend during WoA, she was learning to let go and make people make their own sacrifices.  She was willing to do this because of her love.  Kell need to let go and let Vin and Elend move on.  I don't think Vin would even care whether or not Kell goes to the Beyond yet.  That's his own business.  I don't think she's reprimanding him, she's giving him her parting words of wisdom.

 

(Sidenote, I'm starting to view the situation between Vin and Kelsier as a reversal on the Mentor Dying trope.  Kell teaches Vin how to use her potential and also trust other people.  Then Kelsier dies a martyr and Vin has to step up and make her way on her own.  That's the standard trope.  But, Vin also was a great influence on Kelsier, she taught him how to be a better person and care about others.  Then, Kelsier doesn't die and Vin dies for good.  Vin gives Kell her final words of wisdom, and now it's up to him to find the rest of his way on his own.  Kell can't complete this arc, and heed her advice by stepping it up on his own and continuing to become a better person if he goes Beyond right away.)

 

 

 

Sorry for all the long posts.  I've become too Invested in this thread.

[Another_Secret]

A few remarks:

 

1) I think it is silly to say that Kelsier should have gone to the Beyond to be with everyone considering Preservation and Harmony both say they aren't sure what lies Beyond. There are no guarantees for him that it will be some big loved ones reunion.

 

2) It's not fair to call it completely selfish considering what he is going to go on to do for the Southerns

 

3) One of Kelsiers defining characteristics is how absolutely stubborn he is. Stubborn and egotistical enough to take on and accomplish the impossible with what we now know to be a growing degree of frequency. Is there another Sanderson character more suited for this particular story line? Not even close! Ever since the pits this guy is fueled by an unquenchable need for justice and to care for others, ego or not. 

 

4) How awesome is it that the religion of the Survivor is actually kind of correct? Kelsier briefly ascended and has achieved some level of after-life divinity.

[natc]

Kelsier's status as an Ascendant is indeed acknowledged in SoS by Marasi, as something written in the Words of Founding themselves.

Wasn't part of the doctrine before but it sure would be now. He's now the Survivor of Death.

[Pathfinder]

A few remarks:

 

1) I think it is silly to say that Kelsier should have gone to the Beyond to be with everyone considering Preservation and Harmony both say they aren't sure what lies Beyond. There are no guarantees for him that it will be some big loved ones reunion.

 

It is not silly at all. As per my previous post, the information Kelsier had when he first arrived on the cognitive plain was a god, a god mind you that Kelsier recognizes as a god, tells him it is the step before passing to the Beyond. A god that also tells him Mare has traveled there. And finally Kelsier sees other spirits depart before him, with contented, peaceful, and happy looks on their faces. When Kelsier entered the cognitive realm he had zero information to draw upon from himself as to what the cognitive realm is, and what the Beyond is. All he had was what he experienced, and what I just named is what he experienced before he turned to Fuzz and told him he wanted to figure out how to stay. At no point prior to his decision to remain in the cognitive realm in the chain of those events, was Kelsier provided any information to lead him to believe that what lied in the Beyond was uncertain. All that information came after he had already decided not to leave. He went from being an "athiest" to having god (as he knows it) walk up and tell him to go. I have not commented because everyone has been making great points and opinions on how they feel Kelsier as a character is, and why he may have chosen to stick around but that is one point I will not bend on as it is literal fact in the book quoted. He could have stayed due to hubris, through worry for his friends, natural distrust, defiance towards authority figures, and so on, but not because others told him they didn't know what is on the other side. That did not happen till later. Sorry if that comes off confrontational, that is why I use bold so it hopefully does not sound like I am shouting or angry, but just for emphasis. 

[FeatherWriter]

My understanding of the Beyond, and the God Beyond for that matter, is based on the fact that Brandon tries to write his stories so that they don't contradict any of the reader's belief systems.  I think he talks about this kind of stuff when people ask him about Jasnah and writing about beliefs other than his own.  He doesn't want atheists to see all these gods running around and think that Brandon's saying with his books that religion is true.  On the same note he doesn't want theists to see that those gods running around, who are essential just really powerful people, and think that he's using them as a replacement for an actual God.  He also describes writing his magic systems as adding a few new laws of physics to the universe (for him it's Realmatics, Investiture, and attributes like Connection), so far the Beyond doesn't seem to fit with any of these rules added, it's not in any of the three realms.  That's why it's the Beyond, it's beyond the three realms and all of the Cosmere.  Brandon saying, "Hey everyone, in my universe, the afterlife is real, that's just the way it's going to be," would feel kind of cheap to me.  He doesn't want anyone to have to set aside their own beliefs to enjoy the story.

 

This is how I've always interpreted the Beyond, ever since HoA.  Asking if there's an afterlife in the Cosmere would be the same as asking if there's an afterlife in real life.  Some people say yes, some people say no, and there's no direct evidence one way or the other.  That's the beauty of the system, I can read it and think that they're all reunited, but Jasnah could read it and think that the Beyond is a comforting lie, and what's important is the time they spent together.  This is only my interpretation, but I think it's pretty grounded.

 Please, never apologize for long threads, they're wonderful. I say so because I too often write them myself!

 

That said, I disagree with this interpretation. I think when Brandon talks about being respectful to readers of all beliefs and making sure he doesn't alienate them, I think he's more focused on the portrayal of those kinds of characters. When he writes atheist or theist characters, he wants them to feel like real people and not have judgements passed upon them for the kinds of beliefs they hold.

 

I don't think he is avoiding an outright establishment of an afterlife system in the cosmere. I have a feeling that most readers can understand that this is a fictional universe and Brandon's declaration of whether there is or is not an afterlife for the cosmere doesn't have any bearing on whether or not there is an afterlife in the real world. It's fantasy and the way their world works is not the way that ours does. We have no Investiture or Realmatics here. We as readers are not going to feel that our beliefs are judged because they don't line up with the cosmere.

 

Which is to say, it's kind of a moot point anyway. Brandon has explicitly stated that there is an afterlife in the cosmere, and he's even explicitly stated that it's a happy one. We've known this since Hero of Ages annotations came out.

 

 

Killing Elend and leaving Vin alive would have been, in my opinion, more tragic than what happened. As I establish in a little bit, there is an afterlife in this cosmology. Better for them both to die and to be together.

--HoA Annotations, Ch. 81, Part 4

 

I agree with Sazed. They deserve to rest. I added the line about him having spoken with them to soften the blow of their deaths somewhat and give confirmation of a pleasant afterlife for them.

--HoA Annotations, Epilogue

 

However, in talking about Kelsier, there's no way he could have known this the way that we do. He didn't read the HoA annotations, obviously. That said, I still don't get the sense that Kelsier fears the Beyond. I'll admit it might be a small part of it, but I still read that his main motivations are curiosity and partially due to his own ego and desire to be involved still. 

 

And, again, just because good came out of it eventually in the helping of the Southern Scadrians doesn't change the initial decision. Kelsier wasn't thinking about/didn't know about the Southern Scadrians when he decided to stay. As they weren't a part of his decision making process, they aren't a part of my consideration of his motivations.

 

I feel like I should also clarify, because I perhaps haven't made this clear: my salt monument being constructed over here isn't for Brandon. I don't have too much of a problem with Kelsier, as a fictional character, being kept around for narrative purposes. Yes, I think it cheapens his death in TFE a bit, but that's not enough of a qualm to make me hate the decision. On the contrary, I think Brandon executed this decision masterfully and, as I said, in a way which was completely in character for Kelsier.

 

However, I certainly think this expression of Kelsier's character is one which highlights one of his flaws, that being both selfishness and ego. While it makes sense for Kelsier to have made this bad decision, given his motivation and personality, I still think it was a bad decision, and I'm annoyed at him, the fictional character, for it. Even if he later made something good of it, I think the wiser and "right' decision would have been to move on. If Kelsier wasn't so focused on himself all the time, he might have seen that.

 

I love Kell. He's a great character and wonderfully complex. He's usually a joy to read about and he's fascinating. But he's got issues, and I think deciding to stick around shows one of those issues. Problematic fave, certainly. This decision of his falls squarely into the "problematic" category for me. 

[Robot Aztec]

pleas dont advocat suicide even for fictional chararcters

[NovaSeeker]

Featherwriter, I gave your original post an upvote, even though I have no salt for this outcome whatsoever. Because you're absolutely right about everything.

 

(Also "Go to bed, Kelser" made me laugh out loud.)

[Zizoz]

I didn't like him encouraging Spook to experiment with Hemalurgy—it did seem like he was manipulating Spook to me, and I'm doubting that not one was harmed in the process of figuring out Hemalurgy. But I don't have a problem with him staying in the Cognitive Realm.

 

To be clear, if Kelsier had been motivated by wanting to help people (e.g. the Southern Scadrians), would you still think he should have gone Beyond, or is it purely his motives that are the problem?