What made Szeth sound the alarm?

[snoo]

I realized that I have never seen a discussion about what might have pushed Szeth to declare that sprens where binding again with humans and that a desolation was about to come.

 

Any ideas?

 

If Szeth had bound a spren he could have probably proved it to the Shamans and he wouldn't have any doubts about it.

 

What else? Did he meet Nale early on?

 

Any WOB on the topic?

 

 

 

[flying_shadow she/her]

It's possible that he would have been unable to prove that he had bound a spren, and then denied it afterwards, maybe.

[hoidhunter he/him]

I don't think it's likely that Szeth bound a spren...he seems REALLY surprised and upset when he sees Kaladin surge binding.  

 

That being said...you raise an excellent question.  I hadn't really thought of what precipitated Szeth's declaration that caused him to become truthless. (by the way, every time I hear/read truthless I can't help but think of the nightfury from how to train your dragon fighting Kaladin)

 

Thinking back...I don't remember ever being given a hint as to what it might have been.

[Weltall]

One possibility is that he (at least for a while) was receiving visions from the Almighty like Dalinar and to a lesser extent Kaladin and that's what prompted him to try and warn the rest of the Shin. That would give him a reason but it would be very difficult to prove, which fits with what we know. Certainly harder to prove than if he'd bonded a Radiant spren or something more of that nature where he could show the Stone Shamans or the people at large some evidence for what he was saying.

Edited January 24, 2016 by Weltall

[Patrick Star]

I may be wrong about this, but wasn't Taravangian suspicious about an upcoming desolation before Gavilar's assassination?

If so, both Szeth and Taravangian likely stumbled across the same piece of evidence.

[DreamEternal]

I may be wrong about this, but wasn't Taravangian suspicious about an upcoming desolation before Gavilar's assassination?

If so, both Szeth and Taravangian likely stumbled across the same piece of evidence.

It is possible, but Gavilar told him of his visions, and it is implied they worked together on some of Gavilar's hidden plots, so it is not necessarily true.

However, it is very possible Mr.T was a spymaster even before the Diagram, and helped Gavilar unite Alethkar. Perhaps they found something together, maybe even before Gavilar somehow atracted the Stormfather.

[Fiddler]

WoR chapter 78, epigraph:

 

AhbuttheywereleftbehindItisobviousfromthenatureofthebondButwherewherewherewhereSetoffObviousRealizationlikeapricityTheyarewiththeShinWemustfindoneCanwemaketouseaTruthlessCanwecraftaweapon

 

With spaces:

 

Ah but they were left behind. It is obvious form the nature of the bond. But where where where where. Set off. Obvious. Realization like apricity. They are with the Shin. We must find one. Can we make to use a Truthless. Can we craft a weapon.

 

Mr. T is obviously talking about the Honorblades and from what I understand, he planned to "craft" a Truthless as a weapon he could use.

 

Seems rather likely, that he had something to do with Szeth becoming Truthless in the first place.

[DreamEternal]

Seems rather likely, that he had something to do with Szeth becoming Truthless in the first place.

When thinking about the Diagram, Mr.T also thinks about how he was continuing Gavilar's work and about what they learned from his visions, so I'd sayit is unlikely that the Diagram is older than Gavilar's assassination.

The part about creating a weapon could be because Mr.T in his Diagram day predicted Szeth would prove unreliable, or be a backup plan if he wasn't found.

[Michael Portz he/him]

Hmm .. I thought Seth's Truthlessness was more about the past ("Voidbringers never existed"), than about any future development of Roshar ("Spren are back and bind again"). 

[DreamEternal]

Hmm .. I thought Seth's Truthlessness was more about the past ("Voidbringers never existed")

His WoR interlude mentioned he raised the alarm, and the coming of the True Desolation and in the WoK prologue he implied the return of the voidbringers would contradict his punishment, so I'd say it was because he predicted the True Desolation somehow, and the Shamanate called him a liar.

[stonedshaman]

I always assumed that he saw or killed a voidbringer. Don't know why, thats just how i read it

Edited January 24, 2016 by stonedshaman

[Patrick Star]

The part about creating a weapon could be because Mr.T in his Diagram day predicted Szeth would prove unreliable, or be a backup plan if he wasn't found.

 

I thought the part about him creating a weapon was so that Taravangian would be able to assassinate leaders and slowly increase his influence over Roshar.

 

You know, sort of like what he did once he acquired Szeth.

[DreamEternal]

You know, sort of like what he did once he acquired Szeth.

I mean the reason he wrote "create" instead of aquire, when Szeth was already a Truthless and had just killed Gavilar.

[thegatorgirl00 she/her]

Why are we assuming that Szeth couldn't prove his claims? I wouldn't put it past the Stone Shamans to lie and say that Szeth was Trutess in order to preserve their own power. Szeth values order and law above everything else. If his superiors told him that he was wrong, he would probably believe it. He believed Mr. T's lie about Kaladin having an Honorblade.

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

It is true that Szeth would probably follow the edict of the stone shamans even if he didn't agree. We can see how devout he is at the start of WoK.

It is sort of hard to say exactly what events took place for him to be named truthless though. We know a fair amount about Szeth, but not very much about the stone shamans.

That quote makes it sound like Taravangian may have shaped the events around Szeth to use him as a weapon. Interesting. Not sure if the timing of this works, though, depending on whether Taravangian's predictions came before or after Szeth gained an honorblade.

[FirstSelector]

I think the key may be in the importance of "stone."  We know a Desolation starts when the Heralds return to Roshar, which in this case means only Talenel.  Furthermore, he is known as the "Ancient of Stones" according to the Diagram or "Stonesinew."  Lastly, given that the Shin hold the remaining Honorblades, it is not unreasonable to guess that they know a bit more about the Oathpact than the remainder of the populace.

 

I would guess that Szeth, a former member of the Shamanate, figured out that Talenel was about to give in to the torture and come back.  The spren had some way to anticipate the Heralds arriving, so it's not a bad guess that Szeth simply understood what the stonespren were saying (much like riverspren have rudimentary intelligence).  In fact, one might guess that if the Stonewarden Nahel spren has the same relationship to stonespren as honorspren do to windspren.

As for the timeline discrepancy, I would guess that Taravangian didn't "make" Szeth, but more realized the possibility of a Truthless with an Honorblade and was "lucky" to find him later.  On the other hand, since the Heralds also seem to have a hand in this situation, I find it more likely that they simply pushed the Shamanate to oust Szeth.

[Slaybalj]

But..... According to risyn, there arent spren in Shinovar...... For that matter, since the highstorm peters out at the border, could the Stormfather have given visions to Szeth?

[DreamEternal]

But..... According to risyn, there arent spren in Shinovar...... For that matter, since the highstorm peters out at the border, could the Stormfather have given visions to Szeth?

I am sure there are spren in Shinovar, even if they are very rare. A shin scholar whose work Shallan was studying recorded the appearence of gravityspren near heavy objects.

Plus, Rysn knew very little about Shinovar by the time that interlude took place.

Edited January 26, 2016 by DreamEternal

[Pathfinder]

I am sure there are spren in Shinovar, even if they are very rare. A shin scholar whose work Shallan was studying recorded the appearence of gravityspren near heavy objects.

Plus, Rysn knew very little about Shinovar by the time that interlude took place.

True, but you are assuming the Shin scholar was in Shinovar when he studied the gravity spren. It has come up in the books that shin scholars have traveled through the rest of Roshar and not only Shinovar. So he could have traveled to one of the other lands, and observed gravity spren there. Not saying Rysn is right, but just because of the scholar does not make her wrong. 

[DrakeMarshall he/him]

Well, maybe spren in shinovar are like spren on Scadrial. Still sort of present, but not manifested in the physical realm like they are on most of roshar.

[+Lewis Nethur He/Him]

Could it be possible Szeth just heard, and later reported to the Stone Shamans, a particularly compelling Death Rattle predicting the return of the voidbringers?  This seems like the simplest answer to me.  Do we know where Moelach was when Szeth was named Truthless?  If he was on the far east side of the continent at the time this might not be a good theory.