Hoid, the Seventeenth Shard, and more.

[Spectre he/him]

Hello, all.

 

So, I'm new to posting here, but I've read just about EVERYTHING I can get my hands on about realmatic theory, WoB, the Cosmere, etc.

 

As I was going through some things on Hoid recently, something hit me:

 

Why is the Seventeenth Shard after him, really? I mean, it's apparent that they don't like/agree with him on the way he does things, but why is a group of our heroes (assuming Vao is as heroic as both Demoux and Galladon) chasing this man? He doesn't seem evil. He certainly has an agenda, sure, but he's not a bad guy, I think. (He's going to have his own series, for pete's sake.)

 

Here's what I think:  the answer to our question is in the two epigraph letters from TWoK and WoR and in the name of the organization chasing him--the Seventeenth Shard.

 

We all know that he witnessed the shattering of Adonalsium. The recipient of the first letter makes it sound like Hoid's presence at the shattering of Adonalsium wasn't just as a bystander--he had a hand in it. In fact, in the second letter we read:  "Is not the destruction we have wrought enough? The worlds you now tread bear the touch and design of Adonalsium. Our interference so far has brought nothing but pain." and (speaking of Rayse), "He bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context. He is what we made him to be, old friend."

 

Hoid, then, is likely to have caused the shattering of Adonalsium alongside--perhaps--the recipient of the first letter.

 

But that alone is not why they are seeking him, I think. The answer, as I said, lies in their name. In causing the shattering, I think Hoid became the only vessel capable of containing all the shards' power again--in effect, he is the seventeenth shard. They need him. And that's why they're after him. He's their liege and their plans require him. Hoid, however, has his own plans and finds them to be useless or, at the very least, unhelpful. 

 

Another theory would be that Hoid was originally a piece of Adonalsium himself and now is the only remaining physical aspect of the god left. This one feels unlikely due to what we know of his likely past.

 

I think we have a few evidences of this all being feasible:

 

1. Hoid is Spiritually Blind. In the shattering, he could have lost this ability. All of the shards are filled to the brim with investiture (which we know comes from this realm). It could have something to do with it.

 

2. Hoid is unable to kill (or unwilling to). Maybe during the shattering when he became the vessel for deity (or became... infected with deity) he became unable to destroy Adonalsium's greatest creation: mankind.

 

3. According to WoB, Hoid is really, really, really hard to kill. I think this would account for that.

 

There are likely others. I think its a sound theory. But... I want to hear what you guys think. Be brutal. I'd like to see what the consensus on this would be.

 

Let me summarize in closing:  Hoid is not a shardholder, but the required vessel for recreating Adonalsium in all of its/his glory because he caused/took part in the shattering or because he was originally a part of the divine. The Seventeenth Shard (group) has so named themselves because they seek him (Hoid) in order to rebuild their sundered God.

 

Edited for clarity.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Spectre

[imriel452]

For those in the know- Vao is an anti-hero (in my opinion) - he has his own set of rules and he lives by them. That being said, this may change when he makes his next canonical appearance in the Cosmere.

With Hoid writing to the Dragon about his perpetration of the feud between Rayse and Bavadin, we have an interesting state of play, now that we know that Bavadin holds Autonomy.

Rayse seems intent on shattering and killing as many shards as possible, thereby making the repair of Adonalsium more difficult- I will not say impossible, as we have seen Hoid collecting Invested objects and developing certain abilities throughout the books so far. (Nalthan Breath, Scadrian Lerasium, attempting to become a Selish Elantrian, and Rosharan Lightweaving, which may be an offshoot of Yolish Lightweaving abilities)

Bavadin also seems to want to limit the reformation of Adonalisum, purely through his Autonomy intent.

[KaIadin he/him]

 

 

CHAOS

Is Hoid evil?

BRANDON SANDERSON

*chuckle* What do YOU think?

Well luckily, we have a WoB on this. Just saying, it is very informative and not vague at all.

 

[AerionBFII he/him]

I always imagine him as a reluctant Anti-Hero,

He has an Agenda, he is willing to let Roshar burn for it though it would grieve him.

He double crossed Shai but gave her a potential escape route.

He meddles and interferes but doesn't directly kill people, he's not a butcher.

Also he is partially insane and the most powerful non-Shard character in the Cosmere.

[Oversleep]

I just want to remind we do not talk about unpublished books like Dragonsteel or Liar Of Partinel.

As for the Hoid and Seventeenth Shard, I think they're just after him because they believe in non-intervention and he's running around inspirating heroes and stuff and collecting Investiture abilities.

[imriel452]

I haven't refered to any of the unpublished work or spoilers there of. The identity of Vao/Blunt is now established, a cleverly worded question got an answer about a Dragon from Brandon in regards to the author of the Second Letter, and the Ars Arcana for Words of Radience refers to Lightweaving being similar to that of the Yolish variety.

[King's Twit he/him]

To provide a bit of tinfoily support for your theory:

 

There's a fairly recent WoB where someone asked for an endgame (era 4 at this point?) Harmony quote, and he replied with "It is yours".

 

What if this is Sazed giving the Harmony Shard to Hoid (or someone) to begin, advance, or complete Hoid's effort to rebuild Adonalsium?

Edited January 9, 2016 by King's Twit

[Spectre he/him]

 

There's a fairly recent WoB where someone asked for an endgame (era 4 at this point?) Harmony quote, and he replied with "It is yours".

 

What if this is Sazed giving the Harmony Shard to Hoid (or someone) to begin, advance, or complete Hoid's effort to rebuild Adonalsium?

I hadn't read anything about this. That's pretty awesome. Take my up vote, good sir, and thanks for the tinfoily support. =D

[yurisses]

To provide a bit of tinfoily support for your theory:

 

There's a fairly recent WoB where someone asked for an endgame (era 4 at this point?) Harmony quote, and he replied with "It is yours".

 

What if this is Sazed giving the Harmony Shard to Hoid (or someone) to begin, advance, or complete Hoid's effort to rebuild Adonalsium?

 

That would be really cool. Or maybe he is giving his Shard(s) to another Shard. Or maybe he is giving out something else entirely and we don't have the clues to know what, haha.

[Spectre he/him]

Yeah... We definitely don't have enough information there for a solid "This is what it means!" kind of theory. Still, it's compelling. I'd love to see the original WoB on it if anyone has a link.

[Oversleep]

Or he will give main protagonist an item he lost long ago and was missing it. Epilogue kind of thing. Something like that, just so Brandon can troll us.

[hoidhunter he/him]

To provide a bit of tinfoily support for your theory:

 

There's a fairly recent WoB where someone asked for an endgame (era 4 at this point?) Harmony quote, and he replied with "It is yours".

 

What if this is Sazed giving the Harmony Shard to Hoid (or someone) to begin, advance, or complete Hoid's effort to rebuild Adonalsium?

That's interesting.  In a much earlier thread...someone was questioning why Odium would be so afraid of Harmony...when Harmony is fairly limited with what it (he) can do with it's power.  

 

The theory that I proposed...was that Harmony was eventually going to martyr himself in order to defeat Odium (or some other nasty, ill - intended shard).  

 

This is basically what Preservation does in order to defeat Ruin, and creates Harmony as a result.  Preservation is too bound by it's intent to directly attack Ruin...but Vin, having just become Preservation, is not yet encumbered by it's intent. Unfortunately the two shards are so closely matched in power that they both die...but...being that Harmony is a combined shard...if it wasn't limited by conflicting intents...a new holder may be able to kick some shardic butt.

[taveren he/him]

i don't think hoid wants to grab any shards for himself at least not yet it seems like he is just setting things up for later. like bowling pins he wants to knock then all down in one go

[Spectre he/him]

I agree. And that's sort of my theory--the 17th Shard is after him because they want him to take up the shards and become their God in full. He, however, has other plans.

I'm not fully certain what those are, of course. Venturing a guess, I would say that he's setting dominoes carefully in place to knock over when the time is right... Maybe after the various shardworlds develop FTL travel and start converging on each other?

Edited January 11, 2016 by Spectre

[Stormgate he/him]

Maybe they want to stop him. I don't know what he's doing, but I think the 17th Shard does or at least Frost does.

[AerionBFII he/him]

 

QUESTION

If Hoid were tempted by a Shard, which one would it be?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Endowment.

Could you imagine Hoid's future jokes about being "Specially Endowed?"

I doubt Frost would be able to put up with him as their God... 

[The Invested Beard]

I agree. And that's sort of my theory--the 17th Shard is after him because they want him to take up the shards and become their God in full. He, however, has other plans.

I'm not fully certain what those are, of course. Venturing a guess, I would say that he's setting dominoes carefully in place to knock over when the time is right... Maybe after the various shardworlds develop FTL travel and start converging on each other?

 

I don't think this is the 17th Shard's intent really. The letter back to Hoid from the leader or organizer of the 17th Shard seems to imply this is not the case. I doubt that becoming omnipotent in this way is in keeping with the idea of non-intervention.