The Shattering of a Shard

[DreamEternal]

Since the Intents of the Shards are often single-minded ideas (To preserve, to ruin), the Intents of anything that Splintered from those Shards could not be much different from that of the Shard itself.

Shards with more abstract intents may prove the exception, however. An exemple would be Honor, who we know had ten "purposes", and is implied to have created a great number(but not all) of intelligent spren when splintered.

[Moogle]

2. Why did the Shattering create mandates, but splinters carry the same mandated investiture as their original Shard?

 

I would argue that Splinters don't carry the same Intent as their parent Shard, or rather they do but it is a much more specific example of it. To connect this to the Shattering, we are told that Odium carries "God's" own hatred - a specific part of the original's Intent.

 

For example, Syl as an honorspren (the purest expression of Honor you can get, anyways) is unconcerned with laws. I would be very surprised if Honor as a broader Intent was uncaring about laws, as the Skybreakers existed as an order. The Windrunners are one small expression of Honor, in that sense.

 

Similarly, we can look at Seons, Splinters of Devotion... each forms around a different Aon, and has a personality based upon this Aon. Though they all are devoted personality-wise, the form this devotion takes varies - one Seon with an Aon related to plants takes to gardening. And their Aon can be "actualized", creating an effect in-line with their very specific Intent. A Shard, in comparison, is similarly limited by their Intent (the Well could not be used to kill) but seemingly has a much more broad scope to its more abstract Intent and thus is capable of doing much more.

 

We can connect this to Nalthis with the Divine Breath having its own specific "Command", which is what the priests read in order to give each Returned their name. (Though this is very speculative.)

 

I feel relatively confident in this theory... and I think it has interesting applications. It allows us to predict the personality traits of any Splinters of Preservation or Ruin that might one day arise, for example.

[Confused]

Moogle, I disagree. Following is interpretation not based on canon:

1. I think Bondsmiths represent Honor's mandate (intent) in its purest form, not Windrunners. Dalinar's spren is the Stormfather, whom I believe is the embodiment of Honor and, as the only nearby sentient entity when Odium killed Honor, became the repository of most of Honor's investiture. Kaladin's spren is Syl, the Stormfather's "daughter." Opposite Bondsmiths on the KR "Round Table" are Truthwatchers, whom I believe represent Cultivation's purest mandate (which I now believe is Time).

2. I further think that each of the other KR Orders reflect "intent [mandate] meshing" between Honor and Cultivation. (Some poster I respect wrote a theory about that...) Since both Honor and Cultivation are invested only in Roshar, the only thing that distinguishes their magic is their differing mandates. IOW, mandate-meshing causes spren differences on Roshar, not subdivisions of Honor's mandate.

3. Sel is peculiar among Shardworlds because of the primacy of the command itself (the Aon or soulstamp, etc.) over the magic that executes the command (the Dor). The latter seems to fulfill all commands wherever and however on Sel they arise. MISTER Sanderson has commented on this "programming" aspect of Selish magic. Therefore, we'd expect that Seons formed around Aons (how does that happen?) would act in accordance with the Aon command (the actual splinter) at their core. I don't believe this involves "submandates" at all except in the broadest sense.

4. Your comparison with Odium's "divine hatred" raises interesting issues. Adonalsium was integrated, and its investiture lacked mandates. I've always thought it peculiar that Adonalsium Shattered into mandated investiture. It could have Shattered into whole, fully integrated bits of Adonalsium. It could have Shattered along the lines of different powers of creation. But instead it did this weird thing. That's why I wouldn't use the Shattering as an analog for mandate subdivision, at least until we know more about the process.

[Moogle]

1. I think Bondsmiths represent Honor's mandate (intent) in its purest form, not Windrunners. Dalinar's spren is the Stormfather, whom I believe is the embodiment of Honor and, as the only nearby sentient entity when Odium killed Honor, became the repository of most of Honor's investiture. Kaladin's spren is Syl, the Stormfather's "daughter." Opposite Bondsmiths on the KR "Round Table" are Truthwatchers, whom I believe represent Cultivation's purest mandate (which I now believe is Time).

 

We have the following recent WoB:

[7:09]

Q: Syl identifies herself as an honorspren.

A: Yes.

Q: Would Wyndle identify himself as a cultivationspren?

[Pause]

A: Yes. I think you could say that he would.

Q: By the same logic, would a voidspren follow the same naming convention, so to speak?

A: Here's the thing. Certain spren have decided that they are the most pure forms of honor, or that they are the most pure form of whatever, where all of them are kind of... Syl's got a good argument for what she is. But there are other spren that would be like "well, I'm an honorspren too, I'm just this variety of honorspren." Does that make sense? Syl's like "I'm an American!" and I'm like "I'm an Alaskan!" Yes, you're an American. I'm an American too. It's kind of similar to that. But she would be the most pure... many would view her as the purest form. Wyndle would view himself as the purest form of a cultivation spren.

(source)

 

I think this argues against the idea of Bondsmiths'/Truthwatchers' spren as the purest examples of Honor/Cultivation. I note that the Windrunners and Edgedancers are not quite opposite each other, which is interesting - something to do with how Cultivation and Honor are able to "mesh", perhaps, and are not truly opposites?

 

The Stormfather seemingly existed before Honor and Cultivation arrived on Roshar, in the form known as the Rider of Storms. If this were true, the implication would be that he was once a spren made of Adonalsium's Investiture who was then later "corrupted" into becoming Honor's Cognitive Shadow through the imperfect worship of humans. Thus the Stormfather would not quite be "pure" Honor.

 

2. I further think that each of the other KR Orders reflect "intent [mandate] meshing" between Honor and Cultivation. (Some poster I respect wrote a theory about that...) Since both Honor and Cultivation are invested only in Roshar, the only thing that distinguishes their magic is their differing mandates. IOW, mandate-meshing causes spren differences on Roshar, not subdivisions of Honor's mandate.

 

Certainly the meshing of Intents has something to do with it, but the combinations of Cultivation and Honor are still very specific and concrete relative to their parent Shards. Pattern, a combination of the two Shards, has an Intent relating to a very specific idea. He is a combination of Honor and Cultivation, but is not himself the equivalent of what a person holding both Honor and Cultivation (the full Shards) would be.

 

4. Your comparison with Odium's "divine hatred" raises interesting issues. Adonalsium was integrated, and its investiture lacked mandates. I've always thought it peculiar that Adonalsium Shattered into mandated investiture. It could have Shattered into whole, fully integrated bits of Adonalsium. It could have Shattered along the lines of different powers of creation. But instead it did this weird thing. That's why I wouldn't use the Shattering as an analog for mandate subdivision, at least until we know more about the process.

 

I disagree with the statement that Adonalsium possessed no mandates. Again, I point to the Letter Writer's talk of Odium being "God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context." (pg. 840 of WoR in my Kindle copy.)

 

I give this quote heavy weight, as the speaker is an immortal with personal experience with Adonalsium and the Shattering. Adonalsium seemingly possessed personality traits of a sort. We know that Adonalsium could, in theory, be reconstructed, in the same way any Splintered Shard can be reformed.

 

Occam's razor leads me to lean towards the idea that Adonalsium was not particularly different than any Shard. I don't think the rules Adonalsium had to obey were significantly different than those a Shard has to obey. Perhaps his Intent was particularly special and meant he had less limits than a typical Shard - for example, Preservation could not directly kill another being, but Adonalsium might be perfectly balanced and have no such problems.

 

If the Shards have individual Intents, I'm of the opinion that Adonalsium should have as well - though, obviously, a very broad one. The name 'Adonalsium' is not a word like Honor/Ruin, suggesting a single word will not fit the Intent and it is intended to represent something like "divine in the sense of the god of the Bible, create-y/vengeful/loving".

Edited January 8, 2016 by Moogle

[Yata he/him]

But Confused made a good point about the extreme difference about Shattering-Splintering.

Adonalsium before the Shattering, Invested/Creates all the Cosmere and Splintered himself giving birth of Adonalsium-Spren.

Therefore there is a deep difference between the two "breaking event".

Of course is possible that a Shard hasn't the variery of Intent needed to be Shattered and can only be Splintered but this it's not meaning that Shattering and Splintering are the Same thing (and of course Shattering a Shard would result in a "Shard's Shard"   ),

 

If I remember right BS is very vague about the Individuality of a single Shard in a whole like Harmony or Adonalsium. Therefore is possible that also inside Adonalsium his 16 parts was quite distinct and "easy" to separate, while now inside a Shard there is more "cohesion" and the force needed, would simply do the shard to piece (Splintering).

 

If this is true probably the only being in the Cosmere that can generate a new Shattering (a little one) is Harmony (and maybe the Dor through some theory).

Edited January 8, 2016 by Yata

[Moogle]

Adonalsium before the Shattering, Invested/Creates all the Cosmere and Splintered himself giving birth of Adonalsium-Spren.

Therefore there is a deep difference between the two "breaking event".

Of course is possible that a Shard hasn't the variery of Intent needed to be Shattered and can only be Splintered but this it's not meaning that Shattering and Splintering are the Same thing (and of course Shattering a Shard would result in a "Shard's Shard"   ),

 

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand your train of thought here. I'm reading you as saying "Adonalsium created lots of things, therefore there are huge differences between Splintering and the Shattering", and I don't feel that makes sense.

[Confused]

1. Moogle, first Bondsmiths. I agree that Adonalsium was the original source of the Rider of Storms. Over time, as humans migrated to Roshar, the Rider evolved from his first form into his current incarnation as the Stormfather.

But the listeners don't view the Rider as their "friend" anymore. He betrayed them when he chose human "meat" over listener "broth." This transition caused the replacement of Adonalsium's investiture with Honor's over time.

The Stormfather was the only nearby sentient entity when Odium killed Honor. I believe Honor's remaining investiture attached itself to the Stormfather at that time. IMO, that's WHY the Stormfather is Honor's cognitive shadow and why the Stormfather is the purest form of Honor. How could the Stormfather become Honor's cognitive shadow if he didn't hold Honor's investiture almost exclusively?

The cited WoB to me highlights the gap between the spren's subjective view of themselves and the objective reality. Those views may or may not coincide. Even the statement that Syl "would be the purest form" is immediately changed to say "MANY would view her as the purest form."

IMO, the WoB reflects the intense political conflict among the spren types that Jasnah refers to, rather than an objective assessment of the merits of any spren's claim to "purity." (Wyndle is pure Cultivation? Really?)

2. On mandate-meshing, I'm not suggesting the result is "the equivalent of what a person holding both Honor and Cultivation (the full Shards) would be." The opposite in fact. I'm suggesting that mandate-meshing at the splinter level CREATES NEW MANDATES - and hence new investitures - the splinters that become Radiantspren.

I agree "the combinations of Cultivation and Honor are still very specific and concrete relative to their parent Shards." Honor binds, and will bind/mesh with Cultivation's investiture in different proportions to create something new, the ten investitures that power the KR Orders. IMO, these new investitures do NOT derive in any way from mandate subdivision, but rather solely from mandate-meshing.

3. Regarding whether Adonalsium's investiture was subject to mandates, I agree with your view of the significance of the Second Letter, but disagree as to its meaning. Unlike the Shards, Adonalsium's power was balanced - that's what the "divine hatred separated from the virtues that gave it context" statement means. He exercised his power in the "context" of ALL the "virtues" that became mandates post-Shattering. No single "virtue" disproportionately influenced that power.

Post-Shattering, all or some of these "virtues," acting singly, became the mandates that changed the nature of each Shard's investiture. Pre-Shattering, however, I believe they tended to balance one another.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Confused

[Stormgate he/him]

I would like to speak about the relationship between Honor and Cultivation. The Alethi are extremely concerned about honor, even though it's been corrupted. They don't view the Radiants as good people because they betrayed their oaths, that single act giving all Radiants throughout the entire history of the Orders a bad name. Not only that, but regardless of the Order, the Knights swear to put the strong in front of the weak. While the highstorm is fairly weak before it gets to Shinovar, it is reduced to almost nothing by the time it gets over the mountains. Not only that, but from what little we have seen of Shin culture, they value farming, a trade almost exclusively devoted to the cultivation of plants. They do value honor in certain situations, such as bargaining, telling their buyers exactly what quality of products are being offered on both sides. The Alethi also value cultivation in a similar manner. The Knights Radiant, while mostly focused on honorable actions, also have cultivation in the form of progression in their oaths, Windrunners growing more willing to protect, Lightweavers more able to tell lies that could become truth, etc. The magic systems are probably not nearly as scrambled as the ones on Sel, although I believe I have identified the Devotion and Dominion in AonDor, Forgery, and Dakhor. I don't know enough about ChayShan to guess, though. Sorry about the tangent. Anyway, Cultivation's magic system and Honor's magic system are likely mildly scrambled, with different orders having different levels of Honor and Cultivation in them. Edgedancers, as they probably have cultivationspren, (I noticed that while Sanderson said that Syl was the most pure form of honorspren, he only said Wyndle thought he was the most pure form of Cultivation) probably are not overly concerned with protecting so much as strengthening.

[Moogle]

1. This transition caused the replacement of Adonalsium's investiture with Honor's over time.

...

How could the Stormfather become Honor's cognitive shadow if he didn't hold Honor's investiture almost exclusively?

 

I don't know if I agree with either of these statements. I don't feel we understand Cognitive Shadows enough to argue either way on this very effectively.

 

That said, I lean towards the Stormfather still having a lot of Adonalsium's Investiture. Fundamentally, the Stormfather's nature has not changed, regardless of being Honor's Cognitive Shadow. The Stormfather is a spren of the highstorms, and is fundamentally linked to them. He must obey some of the dictates of Honor, but very plainly rebels against them - he does not wish Dalinar to receive the visions, but he had no choice. These are not actions I would expect from something of pure Honor - but again, I could be very wrong.

 

The cited WoB to me highlights the gap between the spren's subjective view of themselves and the objective reality. Those views may or may not coincide. Even the statement that Syl "would be the purest form" is immediately changed to say "MANY would view her as the purest form."

IMO, the WoB reflects the intense political conflict among the spren types that Jasnah refers to, rather than an objective assessment of the merits of any spren's claim to "purity." (Wyndle is pure Cultivation? Really?)

 

I think the argument for Wyndle as being of the most pure spren of Cultivation is very strong. Even just skimming over Lift's chapter, listening to him speak of being a gardener, of wishing to groom Lift... I think everyone from the release of WoR were pretty confident Edgedancers were one of the more "Cultivation-y" orders, since we had a WoB saying some orders of Radiants were more Cultivation and some more Honor.

 

But even Wyndle does not perfectly encapsulate the idea of Cultivation. He is of Growth and Abrasion, of Loving and Healing. These ideas are related to Cultivation, though not a perfect link (and Wyndle probably is not pure himself and has some Honor). It's not a surprise to me that many would consider him the purest form of Cultivation possible within a limited mind.

 

Perhaps this is, to a degree, subjective, since we as readers and those in-world cannot measure it. But Investiture is Investiture and can in principle be measured. It is an objective matter. I would predict that for all that Wyndle might have some Honor composing his being, we wouldn't measure other orders as having more.

 

You would predict that the Truthwatchers might (I think?), and I agree they too would also be strongly of Cultivation. I think this has to do with the Adhesion (bonds - Honor) and Growth (Cultivation) Surges being mostly strongly associated with Honor/Cultivation. But I think, given the WoB, that the objective fact is likely to be that Windrunners/Edgedancers are more "pure" than the Bondsmiths/Truthwatchers.

 

2. On mandate-meshing, I'm not suggesting the result is "the equivalent of what a person holding both Honor and Cultivation (the full Shards) would be." The opposite in fact. I'm suggesting that mandate-meshing at the splinter level CREATES NEW MANDATES - and hence new investitures - the splinters that become Radiantspren.

I agree "the combinations of Cultivation and Honor are still very specific and concrete relative to their parent Shards." Honor binds, and will bind/mesh with Cultivation's investiture in different proportions to create something new, the ten investitures that power the KR Orders. IMO, these new investitures do NOT derive in any way from mandate subdivision, but rather solely from mandate-meshing.

 

I agree that the combination of Honor and Cultivation does in fact "create" "new" mandates. In fact, I think the abstract nature of almost all the Radiants necessitates the combination. The combination of two mandates, such as in the case of Preservation and Ruin, allows for things not possible with either - the chemical reaction idea that Shadows of Self's Ars Arcanum brings up. Neither Preservation nor Ruin can create on their own, but together...

 

I don't think think this argues against my point on the idea of sub-Intents, though.

 

Let's ignore the Radiant's spren for a moment and instead bring up Jasnah and Shallan's theorizing:

 

"...Really, you can divide spren into two general groups. Those that respond to emotions and those that respond to forces like fire or wind pressure.”

“So you believe Namar’s theory on spren categorization?”

“Yes.”

“Good,” Jasnah said. “As do I. I suspect, personally, that these groupings of spren— emotion spren versus nature spren— are where the ideas of mankind’s primeval ‘gods’ came from. Honor, who became Vorinism’s Almighty, was created by men who wanted a representation of ideal human emotions as they saw in emotion spren. Cultivation, the god worshipped in the West, is a female deity that is an embodiment of nature and nature spren. The various Voidspren, with their unseen lord— whose name changes depending on which culture we’re speaking of— evoke an enemy or antagonist."

 

Jasnah seems to be getting the direction of causality wrong here, but I think her core insight is useful for supporting my point. The theory, put more appropriately is that spren of natural forces are of Cultivation, and spren of various ideal human emotions are of Honor. (And possibly there's a third category of spren associated with Odium, which I've previously speculated to be spren relating to sensations.)

 

This is not firm ground. Certainly we can't state it with certainty, but assuming for the sake of argument that the above is true, note how nicely it fits with the idea that Splinters are sub-Intents of the parent Shard. Lesser spren as such would probably not be termed Splinters, but they are born of the power of Honor and Cultivation (and before them, Adonalsium) - more spren arose with Honor's Splintering, after all.

 

If you disagree with Jasnah's point, then I understand that this argument loses a lot of force. But hopefully it gets my line of thought across more clearly.

 

3. Regarding whether Adonalsium's investiture was subject to mandates, I agree with your view of the significance of the Second Letter, but disagree as to its meaning. Unlike the Shards, Adonalsium's power was balanced - that's what the "divine hatred separated from the virtues that gave it context" statement means. He exercised his power in the "context" of ALL the "virtues" that became mandates post-Shattering. No single "virtue" disproportionately influenced that power.

Post-Shattering, all or some of these "virtues," acting singly, became the mandates that changed the nature of each Shard's investiture. Pre-Shattering, however, I believe they tended to balance one another.

 

I agree with everything you stated here. To paraphrase a certain character, people are more than one thing and rarely have one dramatic flaw which explains everything. We have conflicting desires and goals. It makes sense to me that Adonalsium would be the same, since you can combine the various sub-Intents he split into. Adonalsium would have been honorable (making contracts/covenants), would have desired to ruin, to create, hated some things, loved some things... if you look at them all in sum, I have a hard time not seeing something akin to the god of the Old Testament.

 

When I previously said Adonalsium was possessed of a broad Intent, this is pretty much exactly what I meant. I apologize, because looking back I really worded that poorly.

 

What I was trying to say there, to use another example... in some sense, I would say Harmony has a single Intent. But he's composed of conflicting desires, to preserve and to destroy.

 

And even Shards, I would argue, can sometimes have conflicting desires that need to be dealt with. Indeed, these conflicting desires might be part of what gives rise to the differences we see in the Radiant orders. Honor wishes for Dalinar to unite everyone, but there is a degree of vengeance to the idea of Honor which Dalinar cannot fulfill while trying to unite - which may, perhaps, be part of what the Dustbringers were all about.

 

---

 

I also think the topic of Nightblood merits some consideration, as it seems he would be evidence against my theory. Nightblood is composed of Endowment's Investiture, yet his entire Intent is to destroy, to take both life and Investiture. And he is fundamentally wrong, a "broken Shardblade", as one WoB describes him.

 

He (it?) is heavy where a Shardblade is light, in some ways the opposite of the spren. His (it?) Intent is most definitely the opposite of a sub-Intent of Endowment, and his nature represents that. This is strongly against my sub-Intent theory in some regards, but the very fact that his nature clearly screams he is corrupted in some sense also supports it. His Intent, after all, did not derive from Endowment, but rather a human. Endowment never would have naturally produced what he is. So when Endowment's Investiture was given a Command wholly opposed to it, is it any surprise that the Breath had to be corrupted to accomplish the task assigned to it?

 

I find this fascinating, but I'm not sure where to take it with my theorizing. My natural follow-up question is, "were Honor's Investiture used to Awaken a sword in the same way Nightblood was Awakened, would the creation still be broken?". I suspect the answer is "no".

Edited January 9, 2016 by Moogle

[Yata he/him]

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand your train of thought here. I'm reading you as saying "Adonalsium created lots of things, therefore there are huge differences between Splintering and the Shattering", and I don't feel that makes sense.

I was very unclear, sorry

What I want to say was:

In the Cosmere's History Adonalsium was both Splintered (He left some Adonalsium-Spren after all) and Shattered ( the 16 Shards), therefore there is a true difference between the two type of "Breaking events" (Shattering and Splintering) also with the same Entity (Adonalsium).

 

Then I speculated about "Why Was Adonalsium shattered ? while after him all the shards was only Splintered".

My idea is that Adonalsium was already an heterogeneous being and was more easy to divide his distinct parts (the Shards).

While a Shard is a more homogeneous being and againt a "breaking force" it simply "explode" in many tiny pieces (Splinters) because it has not any specific "weak point" where the Breaking Force may release his power.

 

It's like breaking a chain where some ring are very weak, the chain will be break along the "weak ring" and you have 2 shorter chains.

If the chain was a perfect chain (no weak ring), to break it, all the ring will be heavy deformed and probably at the end you have something like many piece of broken pieces of twisted metal.

 

Edit: A more Cosmere example, it's like what happened in the Shattered Plain, the land was broken in many twisted pieces, while the Oathgate's plateaus  that have already "weak spot" was cut along that Spot.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Yata

[Moogle]

Then I speculated about "Why Was Adonalsium shattered ? while after him all the shards was only Splintered".

My idea is that Adonalsium was already an heterogeneous being and was more easy to divide his distinct parts (the Shards).

While a Shard is a more homogeneous being and againt a "breaking force" it simply "explode" in many tiny pieces (Splinters) because it has not any specific "weak point" where the Breaking Force may release his power.

 

I see what you're saying now, thank you!

 

I don't agree that Adonalsium was easier to divide into distinct parts due to being heterogeneous. We know that Adonalsium could have been Splintered into different Intents. To me, this implies him being heterogeneous is not quite the right word. And again, I would argue that you could probably Splinter any of the Shards in a similar way - for example, Cultivation might be able to be "Shattered" into Growth and Prune, if you'll pardon the awful names.

 

But you could definitely be right on this.

 

In the Cosmere's History Adonalsium was both Splintered (He left some Adonalsium-Spren after all) and Shattered ( the 16 Shards), therefore there is a true difference between the two type of "Breaking events" (Shattering and Splintering) also with the same Entity (Adonalsium).

 

Again, I don't know if I agree with this... is there a difference between a Shard voluntarily Splintering themselves (like Endowment does) and a Shard being forcibly Splintered? Without knowing what Splintering a Shard involves, I'm unsure and lean towards "no, they're fundamentally the same process". I can't say for sure, though. You might be right.

[Yata he/him]

I see what you're saying now, thank you!

 

I don't agree that Adonalsium was easier to divide into distinct parts due to being heterogeneous. We know that Adonalsium could have been Splintered into different Intents. To me, this implies him being heterogeneous is not quite the right word. And again, I would argue that you could probably Splinter any of the Shards in a similar way - for example, Cultivation might be able to be "Shattered" into Growth and Prune, if you'll pardon the awful names.

 

But you could definitely be right on this.

 

 

Again, I don't know if I agree with this... is there a difference between a Shard voluntarily Splintering themselves (like Endowment does) and a Shard being forcibly Splintered? Without knowing what Splintering a Shard involves, I'm unsure and lean towards "no, they're fundamentally the same process". I can't say for sure, though. You might be right.

Maybe to Shattered a Shard, you have need some kind of "surgeon-like" attack, not a "hulk-smash" attack.

[Confused]

Moogle, to continue our discussion...

1. Adonalsium, Honor and the Stormfather: Let's assume you're correct, and the Stormfather still contains lots of Adonalsium investiture. If we agree that Adonalsium was balanced, but Honor's investiture was specifically mandated, wouldn't that be like a solution of water and ink? The ink may be diluted, but the solution still bears its color. IOW, Honor's mandate determines how the Stormfather now behaves, even if you are correct. Pure Honor, diluted (maybe) only by a neutral solvent.

We don't know a lot about cognitive shadows, except that they're like ghosts - people who have died and moved on from the Physical Realm, but for whatever reason remain stuck in the Cosmere's Cognitive Realm. But it's a reasonable assumption that the person whose shadow it is has more to do with the shadow then any other person. The Stormfather is HONOR'S (Tanavast's) shadow, not Adonalsium's.

2. "Mandate" or "Intent"? More fundamentally, your comment about the Stormfather's BEHAVIOR not reflecting "pure Honor" raises the "intent vs. mandate" issue in full color. (Personally, I attribute the Stormfather's behavior to his being "broken.") Aside from HoA textual reasons for my preference for the word "mandate" (power without a directing mind still acts in accordance with "a vague will of its own, tied to the mandate of its abilities"), I have semantic and conceptual reasons as well.

"Intent" as a word refers to a state of mind. I think that confuses readers into believing that Honor must PERSONALLY act "honorably" towards others (for example, the Heralds).

But mandates IMO limit the way POWER can be exercised. Shards are COMPELLED - "mandated" - to use their power in ways their mandate permits, regardless of their subjective intent (Ati). They can overcome the compulsion if they are strong enough (Sazed), but their personal desires are near-irrelevant if in conflict with their mandate.

As you know, I don't generally care which word people use. I'm highlighting the distinction here, though, because of your observations about the Stormfather's behavior. In my view, even Honor himself can act dishonorably if he so "intends." But he cannot exercise his POWER "dishonorably," that is, in ways inconsistent with his mandate.

3. Wyndle and the KR Chart. Is Wyndle pure Cultivation? Even you acknowledge that's unlikely.

I'm biased by the configuration of the KR chart (the Round Table - http://omnia-fortunae-commito.tumblr.com/post/79001465674/updated-annotated-surgebinding-chart-spoilers.)The Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers have inside seats. No one else does. Why? Their placement suggests to me that there's something different - and important - about these two Orders.

Honor's mandate is "Binding" because that's what Honor DOES. (It's similar to my former characterization of his mandate as Relationships.) BONDsmiths? Who only bond with the Stormfather? Seems like a fit for the "purest" form of Honor.

Truthwatchers see the future, combining the Illumination Surge with Progression. I now think Cultivation's mandate is Time. (I used to think it was Survival, but Titan Arum pointed out that a Shard like Autonomy was a better candidate for a "survivalist" approach to magic.)

Cultivation of anything involves Time. An Order that sees the future - which Honor says is something Cultivation does better than Honor or (I believe) Odium - and sits inside the Round Table, is IMO most likely to be the "purest" form of Cultivation.

4. Emotion vs Nature Spren. I do agree with Jasnah's dichotomy. But I see this as an issue of spren taxonomy rather than evidence of mandate subdivision. BUT I will accept your compromise that BOTH mandate-meshing and mandate subdivision occur here. We've beaten this to death, and I for one am ready to move on to NIGHTBLOOD.

5. Nightblood. You give an excellent and persuasive summary of the "Nightblood Problem." I'll add to the conundrum that Endowment's investiture is "sticky," yet Nightblood leaks black smoke whenever he consumes investiture.

I thought Oudeis's thread on "Nightblodium" contained some insightful analysis of some of these issues. (My only contribution was to end my post there saying I was done "bloviating about Nightblodium.")

Unfortunately, I have little to add to help your theorizing, except to answer your  concluding question: "Honorblades." If Honor's investiture were used instead of Endowment's, you would have what we do have (IMO): Honorblades that contain the souls of the Heralds ready to come forth and take over the bodies of the Stone Shamans. (I'm sure you've read my posts about the Heralds and the Honorblades.)

That's all, Folks! Don't stay up as late tonight, Moogle, as you did last night!

[Yata he/him]

@Confused, your post has a heavy assumption. That the Tanavast's Ghost is made (or carry) Honor's Investiture.

Of course is possible, but not sure.

For example we may think that a Cognitive's Shadow is made by some rest of the Soul's Investiture (and for example the Kelsier's ghost was made by Preservation&Ruin's Investiture) and in many Shardworld, people aren't created by Shards and their Souls are made by Adonalsium's Investiture, I suppose.

If we take this possibility as true, Tanavast as nice (He bought Hoid drinks once) Yolish guy  would have his Soul made by Adonalsium's Investiture and this fact may be the "bridge" between his Ghost and an Adonalsium's Spren like the Rider of the Storm (same origin after all).

We don't even know if the Tanavast's Ghost was a Sliver of Honor, Tavast himself would be a Sliver, but we can't say nothing for his Shadow.

[Confused]

Yata, as a general observation,  you may be correct - there's no necessary correlation between the identity of the person who becomes the cognitive shadow and the source of the investiture comprising the shadow. As you say,  Kelsier's shadow was made from Preservation's investiture. (I don't know if that is canon, but it makes sense to me.)

But here we're talking about HONOR'S shadow. What other investiture could it be than Honor's own?

You've identified the Stormfather as TANAVAST'S shadow. The Coppermind describes him as Honor's. Does this change your analysis?

[natc]

Kelsier's would have existed before its Ascension though. It being pure Preservation despite being born from a person who very definitely wasn't seems strange. Would it not have some Ruin in it as well?

[Yata he/him]

But here we're talking about HONOR'S shadow. What other investiture could it be than Honor's own?

You've identified the Stormfather as TANAVAST'S shadow. The Coppermind describes him as Honor's. Does this change your analysis?

Yes because for the Stormfather calling it Honor or Tanavast was the same thing. But a Shard (not the holder) can't leave a Cognitive's Shadow, It hasn't any "mind" to leave behind. What we saw until now was always Shardholder's Cognitive Shadow.

 

Kelsier's would have existed before its Ascension though. It being pure Preservation despite being born from a person who very definitely wasn't seems strange. Would it not have some Ruin in it as well?

Kelsier was a Scadrial guy, thererefore he had both Preservation& Ruin's Investiture (at the moment we may began to say Harmony's Investiture) as everyone on that planet.

When he died, while his cognitive shadow was born, and if "take investiture from his soul" the newformed Ghost will be made by Harmony's Investiture.

Then Kelsier's Ghost Ascended through picking Preservation and after some time drop the Shard to Vin. Therefore now Kelsier's Ghost became a Preservation's Sliver and his Preservation's Investiture greatly grows. But He has still some Ruin's Investiture inside of himself.

Therefore I suppose He can't be called "Being pure preservation" (also The Lord Ruler has still some Ruin's Investiture).

Edited January 11, 2016 by Yata

[Confused]

I recall MISTER Sanderson saying a Shard and a Shardholder are the same thing. This is consistent with Sazed's observation that a Shard inhabits it's power like a person inhabits flesh and blood.

We further know that it takes a long time for a Shard to die. Bullet-riddled Miles in AoL stayed alive for awhile, relying on his compounding abilities. How much longer to die should it take a Shard?

The Stormfather witnessed Honor's murder. I speculate that Honor's investiture flowed directly into the Stormfather until Honor died, presumably including Honor's cognitive investiture. Power always seeks a mind to direct it. This was the "outlet" for that power on Roshar that wasn't available on Sel following Devotion and Dominion's splintering.

So...Honor's mind was relatively intact as the Stormfather absorbed Honor's investiture. While I think your point may be generally true - that only humans can be "ghosts" leaving their minds behind after their deaths - I think the peculiar dynamic of Honor's death is an exception to that rule.

Nothing like tapping out nonsense on my phone while sitting in an airport at 4 am!

[Yata he/him]

Ruin died pretty quickly, therefore a "natural death" is a long an slow suffering for a Shardholder. But Odium, instead is very quickly to kill another Shard. He have to kill the Holder and then when the Shard is without Holder, He may Splintered it.

[Confused]

Ruin wasn't splintered, though. You raise an interesting question that I haven't seen addressed - WHEN was Honor splintered? Could the splintering have happened AFTER Honor's death?

IOW, Honor dies, the Stormfather takes up his investiture, and THEN dropped his splintered "children"?

[Moogle]

1. Adonalsium, Honor and the Stormfather: Let's assume you're correct, and the Stormfather still contains lots of Adonalsium investiture. If we agree that Adonalsium was balanced, but Honor's investiture was specifically mandated, wouldn't that be like a solution of water and ink? The ink may be diluted, but the solution still bears its color. IOW, Honor's mandate determines how the Stormfather now behaves, even if you are correct. Pure Honor, diluted (maybe) only by a neutral solvent.

We don't know a lot about cognitive shadows, except that they're like ghosts - people who have died and moved on from the Physical Realm, but for whatever reason remain stuck in the Cosmere's Cognitive Realm. But it's a reasonable assumption that the person whose shadow it is has more to do with the shadow then any other person. The Stormfather is HONOR'S (Tanavast's) shadow, not Adonalsium's.

I agree with the thrust of your argument - whatever part Investiture plays in a sentient Splinter, the Stormfather tends to Honor because Adonalsium should be balanced-ish. However, I think the key part is that it is diluted Honor. The Stormfather, if he contains Adonalsium's Investiture, is only partially of Honor. It will be an influence, but the Adonalsium part means that it should not be the main influence.

However... I was thinking more on this, and I think things I have said previously in this thread were wrong.

The Investiture making up a sentient Splinter does not seem to be the overriding factor in what determines the Splinter's personality. Power needs a "mind" to direct it - this mind, as we see in the case of Shards, is influenced by the Investiture that is a part of it, but is independent of the Investiture. But in the case of spren, we see that even Splinters which develop minds on their own are somewhat orthogonal to the Shard's Investiture.

Syl is mischievous, akin to the windspren (which are composed of Investiture which has nothing to do with it). Pattern loves lies. Spren's minds, such as they are, have a personality separate from, though influenced by, the Investiture composing them.

So when we speak of Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow... I think the discussion on whether or not he is composed mainly of Honor or Adonalsium's Investiture is somewhat tangential. The way the Stormfather acts should be dependent on Tanavast, somewhat independent of Honor's Investiture. I'd also argue that the Rider of Storm's original nature should be the other major factor influencing the Stormfather.

These are just my thoughts for the moment, in a very tentative state. I'm going to work on a post on Splinters later to try and get them a little more cohesive.

---

With respect to your 2., I feel it's mostly arguing semantics and so I will concede the point. This post is longer than I would like as it is, and I think it's better for a discussion to try and split that sort of thing up.

---

 

3. Wyndle and the KR Chart. Is Wyndle pure Cultivation? Even you acknowledge that's unlikely.

I'm biased by the configuration of the KR chart (the Round Table - http://omnia-fortunae-commito.tumblr.com/post/79001465674/updated-annotated-surgebinding-chart-spoilers.) The Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers have inside seats. No one else does. Why? Their placement suggests to me that there's something different - and important - about these two Orders.

...

Truthwatchers see the future, combining the Illumination Surge with Progression. I now think Cultivation's mandate is Time. (I used to think it was Survival, but Titan Arum pointed out that a Shard like Autonomy was a better candidate for a "survivalist" approach to magic.)

On the placement of Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers, the chart is a historical artifact of Vorinism. Their "Double Eye of the Almighty" represents both plants and animals... and those orders are tied to the essences of meat and plants. I'm not sure how comfortable i am extrapolating a lot of meaning from that.

I think there is something to the idea of "God Surges", in the sense that Adhesion seems most likely to relate to Honor (bonds) and Progression, or Growth, being most related to Cultivation. So in that sense there's a big red flag pointing towards those two orders being special... but by the same token, Edgedancers have Growth and Windrunners have Adhesion, and both have spren who would consider themselves the purest expressions of their respective Shards, so why favor the Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers over the Edgedancers and Windrunners?

I think the nature of the Stormfather as Honor's Cognitive Shadow is a red herring. We would expect the Truthwatchers to bond the Nightwatcher if that were particularly important. I think the nature of the Stormfather as a highstormspren(?) is the more important thing to focus on. After all, a Cognitive Shadow is a ghost, and Honor wasn't dead when the Bondsmiths first came to be. And by the same taken, the Stormfather would not have had a whole lot of Honor's Investiture at that point, which argues against the idea of him as being the "purest" expression of Honor in turn.

(I'm going to look really silly if in a year it is revealed that "Glys" is just a sort of link to the Nightwatcher...)

 

That's all, Folks! Don't stay up as late tonight, Moogle, as you did last night!

I find this hilarious given the posting time of your latest post. At least you have an excuse for that... I have none for my poor sleep schedule. I thought I'd get better at the sleeping thing as I aged, but nope. Holidays still mess me up.

[Yata he/him]

I think the nature of the Stormfather as Honor's Cognitive Shadow is a red herring. We would expect the Truthwatchers to bond the Nightwatcher if that were particularly important. I think the nature of the Stormfather as a highstormspren(?) is the more important thing to focus on. After all, a Cognitive Shadow is a ghost, and Honor wasn't dead when the Bondsmiths first came to be. And by the same taken, the Stormfather would not have had a whole lot of Honor's Investiture at that point, which argues against the idea of him as being the "purest" expression of Honor in turn.

This is pretty important to me (I writed the same thing in another post), but I noted something weird in the Stormfather's words, He says:

"I am a sliver of the Allmighty" the use of "Sliver" is quite oddly here.

It's possible that he is a real Sliver because the Tanavast's Ghost was a Sliver (but I don't think) or maybe the Rider of the Storm tried to pick up Honor's Shard when Tanavast died and Odium make him drop it and run (but also this option don't seems likely to me).

Edited January 11, 2016 by Yata

[Stormgate he/him]

We know how to kill a Shard, we've seen it done in HoA. The reason Odium survived while Preservation and Ruin didn't is because Odium isn't Invested in people like Preservation and Ruin. We currently know little about how to Splinter a Shard.

[Yata he/him]

We know how to kill a Shard, we've seen it done in HoA. The reason Odium survived while Preservation and Ruin didn't is because Odium isn't Invested in people like Preservation and Ruin. We currently know little about how to Splinter a Shard.

We don't know if Odium uses the same method.

[Moogle]

We know how to kill a Shard, we've seen it done in HoA. The reason Odium survived while Preservation and Ruin didn't is because Odium isn't Invested in people like Preservation and Ruin. We currently know little about how to Splinter a Shard.

 

Neither Ruin nor Preservation were Splintered, which implies Odium is doing something different.

 

In addition, the reason Ruin and Preservation were able to kill each other was because they were opposites. I see no signs that Odium is similarly opposite any of the Splintered Shards, except perhaps for Devotion. But that wouldn't explain Honor's Splintering.