Most Satisfying Part?

[Kaidenbo]

Yeah it kind of reinforced her "innocence" per say. Which I think is exactly what Kal needed to see in her.

[Stormgate]

He didn't see any good in the world. Syl showed him.

[Kaidenbo]

Well I think he equated that sort of innocence and naivety with Tien and after seeing person after person that reminded him of Tien (including of course Tien himself) die over and over again it was almost as if equating the death of that person proof that innocence and "goodness" doesn't exist. Syl reminds him of Tien and those other young boys he tried to save and showed him that innocence and "goodness" can survive.

[Kynedath]

Epic battle scene between Kaladin and Szeth at the end of WoR.

 

Then again, Kaladin's plot was just so much better than the rest (in my opinion) so I kind of skipped over half of Shallan's plot.

[DreamEternal]

Epic battle scene between Kaladin and Szeth at the end of WoR.

Then again, Kaladin's plot was just so much better than the rest (in my opinion) so I kind of skipped over half of Shallan's plot.

Kaladin's plot was much weaker in WoR in my opinion. Shallan's flashbacks though, they were incredible, in a very sad way. Edited December 31, 2015 by DreamEternal

[Stormgate]

Kaladin's plot was much weaker in WoR in my opinion. Shallan's flashbacks though, they were incredible, in a very sad way.

Oh good someone thinks so. It was her book after all.

Edited December 31, 2015 by Stormgate

[Kynedath]

Sorry guys. I don't really read books for her kind of plot. Yes it was good, but I just can't get into it.

[Kaidenbo]

I think the reason why I liked Shallan's plot in WoR so much more was because she had so much more growth as a character. Going from being a sheltered and naive to becoming such a huge driving force in WoR was fascinating to read. How she handled the bandits and sort of "creating" her other selves to find confidence in herself was really cool.

[galendo]

I also found Shallan's plot in WoR to be less compelling than Kaladin's.  In fact, I thought her plot in WoR was less compelling than her plot in WoK.  I know a lot of people like Shallan in book 2 better than book 1, but I liked book 1 Shallan better.  In WoK we have a character who has to work hard for what she wants, and I enjoyed watching the effort she put into becoming Jasnah's ward finally pay off.  I also enjoyed her change of heart (both ways!) over whether to steal the soulcaster or not.

 

In WoR, on the other hand, seemed...less well written?  I don't really know how to explain my thoughts, but one example is how everything just goes  her way.  There was no real try-fail cycle for her at any point, she just got everything she wanted without effort.  A highprince takes her on as an extremely over-priced scribe, just because.  The king pardons a dozen deserters, just because she asks nicely.  Even her Shardblade comes across as "just because", because we never get to see whatever special things she presumably did to attract Pattern in the first place.  Oh, and you can forget about her ever losing her spren -- Shallan belongs to the "special snowflake" order that doesn't have to swear any oaths.  Grumble, grumble.

 

Back on topic: I mentioned in a previous post that my favorite scene overall was Bridge Four rescuing Dalinar's army, but my favorite Shallan sequence is when she's trying to become Jasnah's ward.  She gets interviewed.  She fails.  She writes a letter.  It doesn't work.  She buys books and starts studying.  Finally she's accepted.  I know it sounds plain when I write it out like this, but I really like reading it, the interview-while-you-walk scene in particular.

[DreamEternal]

To be honest, the strongest part of Shallan's plot were her flashbacks. WoR was an overall weaker book than WoK in my opinion.

[Slaybalj]

Actually, i sort of see shallan as the most likely to lose her spren.... She almost did it once and when pattern confronts her at the end of wor, she says "i hate you. i dont want revenge. I want my family". After everyone has saved the world, I could see her married, with kids, and basically saying "i'm done. I am going to raise my family, study natural history, and spend the remainder of my life not thinking about all the bad things that happened to me."

In my mind, I dont think radiants get to retire....they go until they die or break their oaths..

[maxal]

I also found Shallan's plot in WoR to be less compelling than Kaladin's.  In fact, I thought her plot in WoR was less compelling than her plot in WoK.  I know a lot of people like Shallan in book 2 better than book 1, but I liked book 1 Shallan better.  In WoK we have a character who has to work hard for what she wants, and I enjoyed watching the effort she put into becoming Jasnah's ward finally pay off.  I also enjoyed her change of heart (both ways!) over whether to steal the soulcaster or not.

 

In WoR, on the other hand, seemed...less well written?  I don't really know how to explain my thoughts, but one example is how everything just goes  her way.  There was no real try-fail cycle for her at any point, she just got everything she wanted without effort.  A highprince takes her on as an extremely over-priced scribe, just because.  The king pardons a dozen deserters, just because she asks nicely.  Even her Shardblade comes across as "just because", because we never get to see whatever special things she presumably did to attract Pattern in the first place.  Oh, and you can forget about her ever losing her spren -- Shallan belongs to the "special snowflake" order that doesn't have to swear any oaths.  Grumble, grumble

 

I strongly disagree with this post. It also highlights several of the major criticisms Shallan receives as a character: the dreaded Mary-Sue hat (it isn't said in the post, but everything about it made me think of it). In other words, simply because she manages to drag her chull to the Shattered Plains despite being penniless and shipwreck as opposed top curl into a ball and die, too many readers call her implausible. Why? Because she subdued the deserters... However, the same readers fail to mention her ability to transform herself and to positively influence those around her appears to be tightly linked to her Radiant powers. We must not forget Kaladin does the very same thing when he implausibly and unconsciously draws all the arrows to him during the bridgeruns. Sebrarial was just the same, he was impressed by a lightweaving trick and suddenly started to regret his words as the mask started to fail. In other words, without Shallan's Radiant abilities, he would have likely never call her on to her bluff. Yes, she was lucky, but should we enumerate the number of times Kaladin got lucky simply just because?

 

The king didn't pardon the deserters because she asked nicely, the king pardoned the deserters because the casual betrothed to Adolin Kholin and ward to Jasnah Kholin vouched for them stating her helpful they have been to her. She isn't just a random lost girl: she is an intriguing young lady who comes out of nowhere to lay a hand on the most eligible bachelor across Alethkar while being attached to the most inaccessible woman in Roshar. She isn't a beggar and nobody is fouled by her. However, it pays more to allow her to have her way and observe than to shush her away. 

 

Her Shardblade doesn't come out "just because": it came out through her bound to Pattern and simply because we didn't see how they first bonded does not mean she is just some "special snowflakes who got granted powers out of nothing". She is fabulous artist on her own able to create complex realities (lies) to protect her loved ones: what lie had she created prior to her mother's death which attracted Pattern? Surely Brandon had a reason to retain this information... I can't wait to find out more about it.

 

Calling her a "special snowflake" is to remove her from all her merits. It annoys me when I read such critic, not because I disagree with people disliking Shallan (readers can't like everyone), but because I feel it is unfair. Shallan likely is the longest lived Radiant we have currently met, she has grown rather advanced as a child, but forgot most of it when she practically broke her bond by burying herself into lies. However, it is coming back to her, hence the fact she is picking up on Illumination rather quickly, though she is said to be ages below what she used to be. Kaladin? Kaladin goes to practice a few times down in a chasm and he suddenly is a master: I rarely see posters complain on how easy and convenient it was for him to learn his skill so ridiculously fast... Those critics are usually reserved to Shallan: she couldn't possibly go from a shy girl to a Radiant... except wait Kaladin did just the same in less time... Shallan still needs the support of drawing to call in her Illumination surge and can't do a thing with Transformation while Kaladin aptly uses both of his surges without any apparent effort. 

 

Also it isn't true Shallan made no mistakes: men lost their life because she stupidly and naively ventured into the Ghostbloods lair without proper preparations. What other issues will arise due to her impulsive unplanned and badly conducted "infiltration"? 

 

Shallan isn't my favorite character, but I am somehow sadden to see her being bashed down so often. She hardly ever gets positive posts despite being an imaginative and refreshing female character in a world where cliches are practically all that exists. 

[Stormgate]

That. Was. Beautiful. Thank you maxal.

[Iarwainiel I]

I partially disagree with both maxal and galendo.

 

Kaladin did not become an expert spearman "overnight" - he learned skill with the spear in Amaram's army, and his Radiant powers just enhanced it. Teft even says so to the others in Bridge 4 at one point (can't remember if it's in WoK or WoR).

 

Shallan's Radiant development is more difficult to understand because, as maxal said, "she practically broke her bond by burying herself into lies" in her childhood - - yet Pattern is interested in her lies and seems attracted to them, even encouraging her to lie at times.

 

One Shallan WoR scene was really disheartening to me as a reader: At first I thought that Bluth was genuinely becoming better as a person, then we learned that it was just because Shallan was doing something like emotional allomancy on him, whether or not she realized it. That little bit made me sad and ruined the whole sequence for me, because I always hope that people can grow and change in the real world ... it just made the whole thing be based on a lie in the book, which I guess is Shallan's thing, and I guess that's why I'm not as drawn to her as to the other female characters, Jasnah or Navani.

 

Maybe that's also why the favorite scenes I listed earlier in this thread didn't include any with Shallan's POV.

 

So I'll add a couple of those now to balance out my post:

• (WoR) Shallan asking Adolin about pooping on the battlefield
• (WoR) Shallan asking (?) Adolin to "slay" a rock for her on the Shattered Plains
• (WoR) Shallan hugging Hoid who had been driving the carriage she and Adolin were in
• (WoR) Shallan asking Pattern why her mother had attacked her; so touching

Shallan is an interesting character, but IMO difficult to relate to at this point. I look forward to seeing her grow and change in the rest of SA.

Edited January 1, 2016 by old aggie

[DreamEternal]

One Shallan WoR scene was really disheartening to me as a reader: At first I thought that Bluth was genuinely becoming better as a person, then we learned that it was just because Shallan was doing something like emotional allomancy on him, whether or not she realized it. That little bit made me sad and ruined the whole sequence for me, because I always hope that people can grow and change in the real world ... it just made the whole thing be based on a lie in the book, which I guess is Shallan's thing, and I guess that's why I'm not as drawn to her as to the other female characters, Jasnah or Navani.

I don't think it is exactly like emotional allomancy. She didn't soulcast him into a good man, she convinced him to act as a good man. It is just that her nature as a radiant enhaced her skills at convincing people, but the impetus to be a good person was part of his nature, she just gave a little push.

I think that is the secret of the Lightweavers: if a lie makes itself true, it was never a lie, was it?

Edit: well, in my opinion it was. Except when you actualy intend to make it true, then it is a promise. She promised the desertors could be good men, and the promise made itself true.

Edited January 1, 2016 by DreamEternal

[Slaybalj]

I remember reading a line a while back that was something like: "hope is the belief that no matter how many times you fall, you can get back up again, so long as you keep trying; that nobody is so far gone that they cannot return home". For me, what shallan is doing is reminding people of this... She showed them their potential.... They still had to choose to live up to it.

I am rather fond of her, personally.....

[The Honor Spren]

Every. Single. Scene. With. Hoid.

But the one where Shallan hugs him the most.

Regarding the Shallan discussion, someone mentioned that she "conveniently" doesn't have to speak any oaths, but that's just part of being a Lightweaver. They speak truths, and it makes what they say, more individual to themselves.

[kaellok]

I partially disagree with both maxal and galendo.

 

Kaladin did not become an expert spearman "overnight" - he learned skill with the spear in Amaram's army, and his Radiant powers just enhanced it. Teft even says so to the others in Bridge 4 at one point (can't remember if it's in WoK or WoR).

 

Shallan's Radiant development is more difficult to understand because, as maxal said, "she practically broke her bond by burying herself into lies" in her childhood - - yet Pattern is interested in her lies and seems attracted to them, even encouraging her to lie at times.

The comparison isn't Kaladin's fighting versus Shallan's Radiancy.  Kaladin's fighting is equivalent to Shallan's art, in my opinion.  It's Kaladin's mastery of Radiant powers follows the exact same track as Shallan's mastery of her Radiant powers--they both attain incredible and unconscious skill with them insanely fast.

 

The complaint that so many have is that Shallan suddenly becomes a master at everything, without having to work hard for it.  And yet those same things are enabled by her Radiant powers--and Kaladin is never called out for the same sudden mastery of Radiant powers.  For instance, Shallan uses illusion to infiltrate places and spy on people.  Or she uses emotional Radiancy to make people like her better, react favorably, etc.  If it were allomancy used, nobody would have said a thing about it.  Just like nobody says a thing about Kaladin mastering how to fall through the skies as tho he were Superman in a matter of days, and bests Szeth who has had years of practice.  

 

It's fine to not like a character.  I guess it's even fine to not like a character for the same reasons that you do like a different character.  But as someone who honestly relates so closely with Shallan it can be irksome to see someone call her out for exact same 'flaws' that afflict Kaladin, but praise him for them instead

 

And not seeing the point when Shallan Bonded with Pattern?  Believe that I am as disheartened by that as anybody.  WoR was Shallan's book, and I love all of her flashback scenes (even if you hate Shallan and for some reason are skipping her parts, you owe it to yourself to read the flashbacks), but we are missing significant and substantial growth of character for her that we got for Kaladin in WoK.

[AerionBFII]

• “If he is so honorable,” Kaladin whispered, “then why didn’t he fight to save your sons?”

 

• Any scene with Mraize

 

• Wit took a deep breath, then struck the appropriate pose—lazy expectation, calculated knowingness, insufferable conceit. After all, he did have a reputation, so he might as well try to live up to it.

 

• He looked down as she twisted her Shardblade, rotating the tip, still pointed at him. “I’d be surprised if that little knife of yours poses me any real threat, Kholin. You can keep waving it about if you want, though. Perhaps it makes you feel more important.”

 

• Amarams disgrace.

• Szeth opened his eyes.

 

 

[Slaybalj]

 

And not seeing the point when Shallan Bonded with Pattern?  Believe that I am as disheartened by that as anybody.  WoR was Shallan's book, and I love all of her flashback scenes (even if you hate Shallan and for some reason are skipping her parts, you owe it to yourself to read the flashbacks), but we are missing significant and substantial growth of character for her that we got for Kaladin in WoK.

I suspect we are missing that part because some of the lies that drew pattern to her are going to be significant to the plot... by the end of WoR she is ready to face the truth about her mothers death... But i dont think shes anywhere close to accepting that the rosy picture of her family she paints for herself before her mother died is not accurate.

in kaladins backstory, we slowly become more understanding of the events that make kaladin who he is and our mental picture of him becomes aligned with his mental picture of him...... To get the full backstory on shallan right now would actually make us less aligned with where she currently is because it means we know more about her than she does.

I think the next books will give us a more information as shallan digs into the secret societies in Roshar and discovers how Helaran and her mom were involved. Since her brothers are supposed to be coming, we and shallan should get ample opportunity to compare her memory of early life at the davar household to that of her brothers recollection.

[DreamEternal]

Or she uses emotional Radiancy to make people like her better, react favorably, etc.

There is no such a thing as emotional radiancy. Shallan manipulates people tge old fashioned way, with some subcouncious lightweaving once in a while.

[kaellok]

There is no such a thing as emotional radiancy. Shallan manipulates people tge old fashioned way, with some subcouncious lightweaving once in a while.

I disagree.  There may not a direct analogue of emotional allomancy, but it's there in some form.  That's the only way that the below epigraph makes sense to me.  Or how drawing the picture and creating Veil helped Shallan act and behave in ways entirely counter to her normal wont.  Or how she applied the same to others as well.  They seem to be able to shape how people feel about others and themselves--if that's not an emotional manipulation, then I'm not sure how else to phrase it.

 

“Yet, were the orders not disheartened by so great a defeat, for the Lightweavers provided spiritual sustenance; they were enticed by those glorious creations to venture on a second assault. ”

—Words of Radiance, chapter 21, page 10^[4]

[DreamEternal]

I disagree. There may not a direct analogue of emotional allomancy, but it's there in some form. That's the only way that the below epigraph makes sense to me. Or how drawing the picture and creating Veil helped Shallan act and behave in ways entirely counter to her normal wont. Or how she applied the same to others as well. They seem to be able to shape how people feel about others and themselves--if that's not an emotional manipulation, then I'm not sure how else to phrase it.

If you think directly messing with people's brains is the only way to convince them to do or think what you want them to, then I don't think I will be able to convince you without resorting to telepathy.

[maxal]

 

Kaladin did not become an expert spearman "overnight" - he learned skill with the spear in Amaram's army, and his Radiant powers just enhanced it. Teft even says so to the others in Bridge 4 at one point (can't remember if it's in WoK or WoR).

 

I need to offer clarification on my own post: I meant Kaladin's surgebinding attributes and not his spear fighting. 

 

 

The comparison isn't Kaladin's fighting versus Shallan's Radiancy.  Kaladin's fighting is equivalent to Shallan's art, in my opinion.  It's Kaladin's mastery of Radiant powers follows the exact same track as Shallan's mastery of her Radiant powers--they both attain incredible and unconscious skill with them insanely fast.

 

Yes, thank you for clarifying this. It is exactly how I meant it, though one of my points was Shallan has been a Radiants for a longer time than Kaladin and is basically re-learning things she previously knew while Kaladin is mastering things he never tried at before.

 

In between both character, I'd say Kaladin is the one who is implausibly "gifted" towards learning surbebinding and it has been one aspect of the story I have been bothered with.

 

 

The complaint that so many have is that Shallan suddenly becomes a master at everything, without having to work hard for it.  And yet those same things are enabled by her Radiant powers--and Kaladin is never called out for the same sudden mastery of Radiant powers.  For instance, Shallan uses illusion to infiltrate places and spy on people.  Or she uses emotional Radiancy to make people like her better, react favorably, etc.  If it were allomancy used, nobody would have said a thing about it.  Just like nobody says a thing about Kaladin mastering how to fall through the skies as tho he were Superman in a matter of days, and bests Szeth who has had years of practice.  

 

Yes again. The same complains also fail to acknowledge Shallan has not even begun to master one surge and is completely inapt at the other while Kaladin has mastered enough of his TWO surges to beat an experienced fighter such as Szeth while using a sword, a weapon he has no idea how to yield to boot it up. And no a few lessons with Zahel doesn't even begin to start to qualify as nearly enough training to justify how Szeth could be surprised by Kaladin's sword moves. 

 

What are Shallan's greatest deeds?

 

1) Being an accomplished artist. Extremely plausible for someone who has drawn since childhood. I have met teenagers who were unbelievably talented at drawing despite being young. She has more than a decade practice.

 

2) Her memory: a gift from Pattern. It isn't her doing.

 

3) Her ability to create illusions: which she could do as a child without the support of drawing. Her illusions were then more complete and could talk, make noise while she is absolutely incapable of doing so now. The fact she needs to draw them makes her slow to respond to a threat. For a level 4 Radiant, I'd say she is't quite there in terms of ability.

 

4) Infiltrating the Ghostbloods: which she accomplished with a lightweaving trick, but shall we not forget she fails at it? She is discovered early on and the only reason Mraize didn't kill her if he figured she would be more useful alive than dead. He brought her family back likely to indebted her to him. In other words, he manipulated her into being his agent doing his binding which will likely caused trouble in the next book. Yeah, great success Shallan.

 

5) "Transforming" the deserter. I put that one in parenthesis as she did not transform them: she showed them a lie, an alternate reality where they are allowed to be someone else. In other words, she inspired them to change and she offered them a real chance to do so. The change however was all theirs. She didn't change them nor did she change her family, she simply help a lie becoming a truth. I suspect we are going to see more of that in the future.

 

6) Finding Urithiru... Seriously, Jasnah found it. She simply was missing the aerial view of the Plains which Kaladin provided. All Shallan did is solve a puzzle. As for opening the Oathgate, it was unbelievably easy: she stumbled on it and took her sweet time because she couldn't accept she needed Pattern to do it.

 

In comparison, Kaladin has managed to lead a 1000 bridgemen despite having no relevant leadership experience with larger group of people. He masters two surges in a few days. He learned enough swordsmanship in a few training to favorably impressed Szeth who may not be as good as we are led to believe, but still has somewhat increased experience. 

 

I thus have to say it here: it is unfair to call Shallan out for succeeding too easily while forgetting Kaladin.

 

 

It's fine to not like a character.  I guess it's even fine to not like a character for the same reasons that you do like a different character.  But as someone who honestly relates so closely with Shallan it can be irksome to see someone call her out for exact same 'flaws' that afflict Kaladin, but praise him for them instead

 

Yeah that one is a bugger...  Kaladin gets, on average, too much praise for too little action. I personally dislike the Szeth fight as I deemed it implausible and introduced simply to give an epic feel to that battle which could have been accomplished differently. I think Brandon chose the wrong focus here as Kaladin defeating Szeth was just a few moves and a bunch of uninspired sentences: I had absolutely no emotional response to this sequence. Worst, I skimmed through it rapidly as I found it boring...

[DreamEternal]

For the Szeth fight, I wouldn't say Kaladin's swordfighting surprised him. He was shocked because he became incapable of denying the return of the Radiants, and being surprised, afraid and deeply shaked by having your worldview shattered stoped him from fighting with his full potential.

But yeah, Szeth isn't that much of a swordfighter anyway, he prefers to use his lashings in creative ways and fight dirty. Nothing Kaladin ever did made me think he is nowhere near Szeth when it comes to his surgebinding skills.