The Nature of Hemalurgy

[King's Twit he/him]

So, this has probably been discussed before, but have we considered the possibility that Hemalurgy is not a Metallic Art?

 

We've only seen Hemalurgy used to steal pieces of Preservation in the form of allomantic abilities and things like strength and emotional fortitude for the blessings, as well as Feruchemy, which would be a blend of the power of Ruin and Preservation.

 

What if we've only seen metal spikes because we've only seen it interact with magic systems which use metal as a focus?

 

Could you use gemstone spikes to steal Surgebinding abilities?

 

Since Feruchemy is part Ruin and is a Metallic Art, it would make sense for the full-Ruin magic system to be one as well, but I wanted to make sure we'd considered the possibility that there was an error in our already fairly limited understanding of Hemalurgy.

[Blightsong he/him]

So, this has probably been discussed before, but have we considered the possibility that Hemalurgy is not a Metallic Art?

 

We've only seen Hemalurgy used to steal pieces of Preservation in the form of allomantic abilities and things like strength and emotional fortitude for the blessings, as well as Feruchemy, which would be a blend of the power of Ruin and Preservation.

 

What if we've only seen metal spikes because we've only seen it interact with magic systems which use metal as a focus?

 

Could you use gemstone spikes to steal Surgebinding abilities?

 

Since Feruchemy is part Ruin and is a Metallic Art, it would make sense for the full-Ruin magic system to be one as well, but I wanted to make sure we'd considered the possibility that there was an error in our already fairly limited understanding of Hemalurgy.

Hemalurgic is DEFFINATELY a metallic art, but there is DEFFINATELY a possibility of another magic system that can do the same thing, if not something similar.

[King's Twit he/him]

Hemalurgic is DEFFINATELY a metallic art, but there is DEFFINATELY a possibility of another magic system that can do the same thing, if not something similar.

 

So, you're saying that Ruin could create a similar system to Hemalurgy on other Shardworlds? Or are you suggesting that one already exists?

[Moogle]

The question has been asked and RAFO'd many times. One example:

Question
In the different worlds, can you Hemalurgically spike people with materials other than metal? For example a wooden spike, or a gem spike?

Brandon Sanderson
RAFO.
(source)

 

We do know Hemalurgy can be used by anyone anywhere in the Cosmere.

 

I actually speculated at one point that the Surgebinding fabrials of Roshar are a use of Hemalurgy, with the general idea being that "Hemalurgy" is the use of a focus material to capture Investiture which you can then interface with your Spiritweb. (Though that theory kind of went everywhere.)

 

With all that said, I'd say it makes quite a lot of sense if Hemalurgy was indeed limited to metals. Atium, for example, can steal anything, so this means that we don't need actually need gemstone spikes to steal from other systems. Why bother making the system more complex than it needs to be? Added to the point that we're very sure Hemalurgy is Ruin's system, and systems arise as a consequence of interactions with the planets, and the "focus" of magic seems based on the planet...

 

I guess, if I had to put numbers to it, I'm 80/20 in favor of Hemalurgy being metals-only.

[King's Twit he/him]

Guess I should've done a bit more research before posting this.
 
I think it is limited to metals as well. That is more in-line with the idea that metals have a unique interaction with Investiture (Skaa's Investiture resonance theory and such)

[DreamEternal]

The magic systems arise from the unique interactions between shard and shardworld, that extend beyond material focuses. If Ruin were in Roshar, we wouldn't get gemstone hemalurgy but a very different, yet probably equaly ruinous, system.

Since hemalurgy can be used across the whole cosmere I'd say Ruin's power is broadcasted throught the Spiritual Realm, being filtered by Scadrial's spiritual aspect. This means the focus on another world has no bearing, and you only need to find out the right metals and new bindpoints.

Edited December 20, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Oversleep]

We don't know enough about mixing different magics together - Zahel uses Stormlight instead of Breath and Nightblood will probably feed on Stormlight, but that's it.

On the other hand, as I said here, gemstones aren't really focus on Roshar. The focus on Roshar are bonding of spren and Stormlight. It's as if we said that alcohol on Scadrial is important, because it stops corrosion of metals.
Investiture is filtered through sprenbond/metal.

As far as magic on Roshar goes, we have beings establishing a bond with spren (Surgebinders) and beings merging with sprens (Listeners). I am not sure about fabrials, it doesn't feel like magic. More like magitech.

These beings get Stormlight from highstorms, but somebody found out that gems are natural containers for Stormlight (some animals figured it out during evolution) and they are using it to carry it around.

Of course, I can be wrong...

[DreamEternal]

We don't know enough about mixing different magics together - Zahel uses Stormlight instead of Breath and Nightblood will probably feed on Stormlight, but that's it.

On the other hand, as I said here, gemstones aren't really focus on Roshar. The focus on Roshar are bonding of spren and Stormlight. It's as if we said that alcohol on Scadrial is important, because it stops corrosion of metals.

Investiture is filtered through sprenbond/metal.

As far as magic on Roshar goes, we have beings establishing a bond with spren (Surgebinders) and beings merging with sprens (Listeners). I am not sure about fabrials, it doesn't feel like magic. More like magitech.

These beings get Stormlight from highstorms, but somebody found out that gems are natural containers for Stormlight (some animals figured it out during evolution) and they are using it to carry it around.

Of course, I can be wrong...

I actualy don't really believe that all worlds have "focuses" in the way Scadrial has. It is just that on Roshar, gemstones are the closest when it comes to crystaline structure interacting with investiture. Bonds are the true center of Rosharan magic.

On fabrials: they use gemstones to contain spren, so it is a mix of both, in a way.

[Yata he/him]

I actualy don't really believe that all worlds have "focuses" in the way Scadrial has. It is just that on Roshar, gemstones are the closest when it comes to crystaline structure interacting with investiture. Bonds are the true center of Rosharan magic.

I think that the "bond" are the Roshar's Focus. But until now I can't figure why are the gemstone so important on Roshar's Magic .... Thank you, Upvote 

[iBambam]

@Moogle, I tend to lean towards your point of view. I think most likely that Hemalurgy is metals only. My question about the Atium is that since it can steal anything, I assume that to trying to steal investiture on another planet via Hemalurgy you would need atium. However, at this point (SoS) in Scadrial there isn't any. Although, if someone were to stumble upon the Pits of Hathsin, the geode's should be forming again finally, right?

[Eagle of the Forest Path he/him]

The information about the traits stolen by different metals mostly comes from the Ars Arcanum, right?

Doesn't that mean that it is not necessarily a definitive table?

Khriss could only have access to information about Hemalurgy on Scadrial, without specifics on how Hemalurgy functions elsewhere.

So where the table says 'steals feruchemical cognitive powers', that could actually mean 'steals end-neutral cognitive powers'.

'Steals allomantic physical powers' could actually mean 'steals end-positive physical powers'.

If so, the metals that steal allomantic traits could also steal surgebindings, for instance.

The metals that steal feruchemical traits could maybe steal benefits gained from the heightenings on Nalthis (since that's the only other end-neutral system we've seen)

 

This is just a theory though.

 

On another note, there are still 5 non-god allomantic metals of which we don't know what they steal (though one of them probably steals something allomantic). Those could be the metals that steal non-Scadrian magics.

[Yata he/him]

The information about the traits stolen by different metals mostly comes from the Ars Arcanum, right?

Doesn't that mean that it is not necessarily a definitive table?

Khriss could only have access to information about Hemalurgy on Scadrial, without specifics on how Hemalurgy functions elsewhere.

So where the table says 'steals feruchemical cognitive powers', that could actually mean 'steals end-neutral cognitive powers'.

'Steals allomantic physical powers' could actually mean 'steals end-positive physical powers'.

If so, the metals that steal allomantic traits could also steal surgebindings, for instance.

The metals that steal feruchemical traits could maybe steal benefits gained from the heightenings on Nalthis (since that's the only other end-neutral system we've seen)

 

This is just a theory though.

 

On another note, there are still 5 non-god allomantic metals of which we don't know what they steal (though one of them probably steals something allomantic). Those could be the metals that steal non-Scadrian magics.

In the Hemalurgy Chart I told something similar. But after months I suppose that I was wrong and any other Magic System may be stealed only through Atium or the right Atium's Alloy.

Because in the chain: Hemalurgy-User--->Spike--->Victim somewhere there is need of Ruin's Investiture to perfom Hemalurgy. While on Scadrial any victim has Ruin's Investiture usable to made the Hemalurgy possible. In other Shardworld you had to use another source.

For a while a thinked also that eating Atium turn you in a potential Hemalurgy victim but I am not sure about that.

Edited December 21, 2015 by Yata

[Stormgate he/him]

Hmm... Could you steal AonDor or Forgery with Soulstone spikes?

[iBambam]

I wonder how you could steal the ability to produce Aons, or any other magic, could you use the same bind points used to make an inquisitor? Our would you need to discover new bind points?

[Yata he/him]

I wonder how you could steal the ability to produce Aons, or any other magic, could you use the same bind points used to make an inquisitor? Our would you need to discover new bind points?

I suppose the old point, but you have to know what point are "right" to gift AonDor.

 

Hmm... Could you steal AonDor or Forgery with Soulstone spikes?

To me not, it's impossible to use not-metal Spike.

[DreamEternal]

In the Hemalurgy Chart I told something similar. But after months I suppose that I was wrong and any other Magic System may be stealed only through Atium or the right Atium's Alloy.

Because in the chain: Hemalurgy-User--->Spike--->Victim somewhere there is need of Ruin's Investiture to perfom Hemalurgy. While on Scadrial any victim has Ruin's Investiture usable to made the Hemalurgy possible.

I myself believe Ruin already gives extra investiture to make Hemalurgy possible, possibly to "pull" the piece of the victim's spiritweb into the spike. That means atium alloys wouldn't be needed.

Edited December 21, 2015 by DreamEternal

[Emerald101 he/him]

Hmm... Could you steal AonDor or Forgery with Soulstone spikes?

 

Even if non-metal spikes are possible (which I highly doubt), this would probably still not be the case. People hypothesize about gem spikes because the see a possible link between the spike material and a magic system's focus. In the case of forging, however, soulstone is clearly not the focus. Forging can be accomplished with any material (except perhaps ralkalast - AKA aluminum. We know forging it is impossible but I haven't heard anything about forging with it.). Soulstone isn't the focus of forging, it's just a material that's particularly easy to make soulstamps out of.

[Stormgate he/him]

It seems that Soulstone was designed to be able to be formed into soulstamps.

On an unrelated note, what would an Aon carved into Soulstone be able to do?

[Moogle]

On an unrelated note, what would an Aon carved into Soulstone be able to do?

 

The same thing as the metal plates with Aons in Elantris?

 

Soulstone doesn't make your stamp work better, according to Shai. It just makes drawing it precisely easier.

 

---

 

On the possibility of non-metal spikes, I came up with a model to explain why they may be necessary:

 

Infusing a Hemalurgic spike is the same mechanic as infusing a gemstone as per WoB. However, we know each world's Investiture is tied to a material - mists will infuse metals, Stormlight will infuse gems, and Breath likes to only infuse life-like things.

 

Your soul is made of your world's Investiture. And presumably non-Scadrian's souls doesn't like to stick to metal.

 

So, it make sense that you need that world's material to make a Hemalurgic spike.

 

That said, Hemalurgy is still Ruin's system, so I stand by my earlier comment stating that I believe it is more likely than not that metals are necessary.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Moogle

[iBambam]

I also think metal is necessary, because sure, on Roshar gemstone spikes could be possible, but what would the spikes be made of on Nalthis or Sel? Or what about a world without a shard, like Threnody? You may say why spike someone on a world with no shard, but we don't know for sure there'd be no gain in doing so, right?

[Moogle]

I also think metal is necessary, because sure, on Roshar gemstone spikes could be possible, but what would the spikes be made of on Nalthis or Sel? Or what about a world without a shard, like Threnody? You may say why spike someone on a world with no shard, but we don't know for sure there'd be no gain in doing so, right?

 

There's plenty of reason to spike someone on a world with no Shard (again, disregarding morals). You can, for example, steal any attribute Feruchemy can provide you with. So you could steal someone's strength and become permanently stronger, or their intelligence and become smarter (though apparently that might turn you a little insane).

[iBambam]

Good point, I was thinking solely magic based. I actually want aware you could simply steal someone's strength or intelligence, very interesting. I have some reading to do lol

[natc]

Yes, kandra blessings contain either enhanced senses, strength, mental capability, or emotional stability, though allomancer/feruchemist kandra be made (if anyone else figures it out and actually goes and tries it anyway. Kandra can't kill and didn't know much pre-Final Ascension anyway).

Koloss use 4 strength spikes so they are simply flat out stronger without explicit magic; you're basically splicing spiritual DNA from the poor saps getting impaled by spikes to genetically engineer yourself a creature with that much physical strength "naturally".

Allomancy and feruchemy spikes are actually primarily utilized only in the creation of Steel Inquisitors, only one of three species of hemalurgic construct. The least populated one at that with how hard it is to make one. So many spikes you need to make them seem mistborn-like in combat.

You have single-spike humans with allomancy/feruchemy in the spikes obviously, but not to any large scale. It's the most powerful use for hemalurgy on Scadrial for sure, but in the end if it's in the spiritweb somewhere it's probably possible to spike it out of you.

Edited December 22, 2015 by natc

[iBambam]

Yes, kandra blessings contain either enhanced senses, strength, mental capability, or emotional stability, though allomancer/feruchemist kandra be made (if anyone else figures it out and actually goes and tries it anyway. Kandra can't kill and didn't know much pre-Final Ascension anyway).

Koloss use 4 strength spikes so they are simply flat out stronger without explicit magic; you're basically splicing spiritual DNA from the poor saps getting impaled by spikes to genetically engineer yourself a creature with that much physical strength "naturally".

Allomancy and feruchemy spikes are actually primarily utilized only in the creation of Steel Inquisitors, only one of three species of hemalurgic construct. The least populated one at that with how hard it is to make one. So many spikes you need to make them seem mistborn-like in combat.

You have single-spike humans with allomancy/feruchemy in the spikes obviously, but not to any large scale. It's the most powerful use for hemalurgy on Scadrial for sure, but in the end if it's in the spiritweb somewhere it's probably possible to spike it out of you.

That's awesome! Thank you for the explanation! So I have a question about Zane now, why was he spiked? Did Straff spike him for some reason, trying to make him stronger? Or do we not know?

[Eagle of the Forest Path he/him]

Zane spiked himself because he heard voices in his head.