Cage Match Bracket Discussion

[Chaos]

So, it's pretty clear from the other thread that the cage match is Brandon characters only. Let's get to discussing which sixteen characters get in.

I have a suggested bracket, but who do you think should go in? Here they are, not grouped by planet, since it's more fun to see everyone fight people from different planets.

1. Vin

2. Jasnah

3. Vasher

4. Raoden

5. Szeth

6. Alcatraz

7. Dalinar

8. Kaladin

9. Kelsier

10. Dilaf

11. The Lord Ruler

12. Sazed

13. TenSoon

14. Susebron

15. Sadeas

16. Marsh

My rationales:

Mistborn characters: Vin's advantages are obvious, being small, quick, and incredibly skilled. Kelsier has an edge of ruthlessness which will serve him well. Marsh has additional Inquisitor abilities which make him a force to be reckoned with. Sazed is all about planning and the strength of Feruchemy. It would be fascinating to see how he does. And TenSoon, because it shakes things up.

The Lord Ruler because I want to see how he will match up against other cosmere characters.

Way of Kings characters: Dalinar and Szeth are the easy choices. Jasnah is powerful and highly motivated. Sadeas for his well-timed betrayals, which would totally give him a huge advantage against someone more naive like Susebron. And Kaladin is awesome.

Elantris characters: Raoden, naturally. He has similar disadvantages as Sazed, but he deserves to be here. Dilaf for the same sort of class as Sadeas. (Sadeas vs. Dilaf would be amazing)

Warbreaker characters: Vasher because we need an Awakener. I want to see how he fares against a Mistborn or something. Susebron because he's surprisingly balanced--strong, but also naive.

Alcatraz because we need to remember Brandon writes more than cosmere novels, and because he'll sass you into submission.

In predicting some hesitance with the Lord Ruler, I don't think he's as overpowered as he might seem. Sure, if he goes against a Mistborn, he'll probably win, but him going against Szeth is much more interesting.

Of these sixteen, the one that I think is most likely to be replaced is Sadeas.

[Shivertongue]

I'm going to throw my thought out here and say that Alcatraz Smedry will be the winner. His breaking talent is powerful enough to overcome any Cosmere magic.

[Chaos]

I'm going to throw my thought out here and say that Alcatraz Smedry will be the winner. His breaking talent is powerful enough to overcome any Cosmere magic.

Lol. It's probably true.

Okay, I generated a random bracket using those numbers, and it is so incredible that, if this bracket goes through minimal changes, we simply have to use it. I couldn't have come up with better matches if I tried. In fact, I'm really hoping Sadeas stays in, if only for his first match.

Though there are some issues Feather brought up: when, in canon, do these matches happen?

[FeatherWriter]

I vote we give Dalinar his shardblade for a few reasons. First, Sadeas has his cool shardplate-required bow that he can use instead. Secondly, if we got rid of Dalinar's blade, we'd probably have to take his shardplate as well, because he gave that to Renarin.

And third, more personally, Sadeas having the shardblade just pisses me off in general. Really Dalinar? "Thank you for being a total jerkface, betraying me, and leaving me and all my men to die, Sadeas. Have the thing you've always wanted."

I know, I know. He saved Kaladin with it. But it still ticks me off.

[Eerongal]

Though there are some issues Feather brought up: when, in canon, do these matches happen?

For the mistborn characters, it would obviously HAVE to be pre-ascension for vin/sazed, otherwise sazed will be too powerful, and vin will be too dead.

For kaladin, i would say post-awakening, but this also pigeonholes all WoK characters into this time-frame (unless we're bringing cannon on an individual level and not book level like im assuming)

[CrazyRioter]

lol it ticks me off too. I realize it was kind of necessary for the plot and all, but it was kind of a dumb thing to do......

And I agree, Dalinar needs his Blade and Plate in order to be a match for most of the rest of the bracket.

[Chaos]

Yeah, Eero, Vin, Sazed, and Marsh should all be in MB3 mode, before the ending. It'd would be interesting if any of them had to fight the Lord Ruler...

I think we can play with timeframes a bit. I mean, we have Kelsier, the Lord Ruler, and Dilaf, who are in fact dead. So, I vote that Dalinar keeps his Blade, Sadeas just has Plate, and Kaladin has the powers he has at the end of WoK. Which also would mean Kaladin is in Dalinar's army at this point. (Having Dalinar keep his Shardblade also gives us something to play with in a future cage match, where he doesn't have one).

The setup of this cage match--logically--can only be this: a time traveling Hoid steals all of these characters to fight on his Shadesmar Doomship, to see which one is the strongest to fight Odium. And he slaughters you with humor if you don't fight.

I also think that players should have a vague understanding of their opponents' magics, so Vasher can go, "Hey, wearing metal is dumb here".

[Eerongal]

Now here's a couple of questions.

Allomancers: Atium or no? With it, they may be a bit overbearingly strong, and without it, they may lack that certain edge to make 'em go all the way.

And this one may be ignorance on my part, but: Shardplate/blades - Are they affected by allomancy? My first gut reaction was to go "well, yeah!" but then i thought about it for a moment. Shardplates/blade are made from stormlight, and we dont know anything of the physical material. Now, we do know that stormlight can be held inside of gems/stones, but to my knowledge not metal, which inclines me to believe they might NOT be susceptible to it

[Chaos]

Atium - I say that Vin and Marsh, being in MB3, have no atium. Kelsier, on the other hand, might. Maybe that's a technicality.

As for Shardplate and Shardblade, I distinctly recalled Brandon said you can't Push on Shardblade because it's an Invested object. I think. Maybe Zas can whip up a quote for me, but I remember it being recent.

Other Invested objects include Awakened objects (so, Nightblood).

However, my definition of "Invested" should include Feruchemical charges, but you can obviously Push on those. So, I could be under false assumptions.

[Eerongal]

As for Shardplate and Shardblade, I distinctly recalled Brandon said you can't Push on Shardblade because it's an Invested object. I think. Maybe Zas can whip up a quote for me, but I remember it being recent.

that would be convenient, since it directly affects any shardbearer vs mistborn fight in a major way.

(so now i'm wondering what would happen if a mistborn attempted to burn a fragment of shardplate, if it is indeed some kind of burnable metal like steel. Would it have no special effect? would it have weird random/crazy effects? would it be dangerous?)

Edit: also, i would kinda like to see some mistings in the bracket, but at the same time, i know they wouldnt do well because of their limited power.

[Chaos]

also, i would kinda like to see some mistings in the bracket, but at the same time, i know they wouldnt do well because of their limited power.

I did include Spook on my original bracket, but got persuaded out of it for this one. I think once Alloy of Law hits we will have plenty of fun Twinborn to mix things up.

[Eerongal]

I did include Spook on my original bracket, but got persuaded out of it for this one. I think once Alloy of Law hits we will have plenty of fun Twinborn to mix things up.

if this cage match goes over well, we could maybe do a low-power bracket or something. Have like mistings, pre-awakening kaladin, plate/bladeless dalinar, etc.

[CrazyRioter]

I know I've seen that quote somewhere, re : Pushing on Shardblades, just can't remember which interview it's from.

Edit: a separate low power bracket would be cool. We could throw Vivenna into that one too and Hrathen.

Edited April 12, 2011 by CrazyRioter

[ZeldaDad]

I'm ready for these kinds of matches to occur in the actual books. Also, this cage match was a good plan.

[mycoltbug]

I remember Brandon saying the same thing that you can't pushed on invested objects. So I would say shard gear are invested objects at least until we learn more of their nature. Unless we can get Brandon to confirm this for us before we actually started. Do we give Vasher Nightblood or let Nightblood be his own entry?

[FeatherWriter]

I know that Shardplate and blades are metal, because I remember being surprised when I came across a reference to it in the text, but I'm with Chaos on this, I don't think they're affectable. Maybe if they run out of stormlight? That'd make for an interesting fight. Vin or Kell trying to shatter the plate or crack the gemstones to make the plate affectable.

[lordofsoup]

Is the Lord Ruler going to have his Atium batteries, like he did when Vin fought him? Or will he be younger. He would definitely have atium. Either way, I dont see how he could lose to Sazed or Marsh. The Lord Ruler just had 1000 years to charge up his Feruchemical stores. Sazed had a few decades, obviously he gets his stores from the Well of Ascension. And Marsh had 2 years, but I dont really know at what particular time he got his Feruchemical Spikes.

How much Breath would Vasher get? 5th Heightening? Because that is going to make a huge difference. Also Susebron will have all of his Breath? Because if he does, he should be able to make the entire arena come to life.

Also how close to Elantris are we fighting?

[Chaos]

I think the rule of thumb is that everyone is at the height of their power, with exception of atium, I guess.

So, the Lord Ruler obviously gets his atium stores (though it's curious he never used atium in his battle against Vin).

Susebron would have his full power.

Distance from Elantris will be "pretty close to Elantris" to give Raoden a fighting change.

Vasher obviously gets Nightblood, unless he intends to put the blade down somewhere else so it doesn't distract him. That'd be up to the write-ups, but if he wants Nightblood, he can use it. Fifth Heightening (~2000 Breaths) seems a bit high for Vasher, however. Third or Fourth Heightening seems more reasonable, even though those also seem a bit more than he would ever have.

[FeatherWriter]

Yeah, I'd give Vasher about a thousand breaths. Remember, if we're worried about heightenings, Vasher can get the Fifth hightening from his Divine breath on his own if he wants. The extra breaths will be there for Awakening purposes.

I hate to take atium away from the Mistborn entirely, it's such a cool metal. And I don't think that it would necessarily a deal breaker. A limited amount perhaps? That's always been the way to keep atium from being overpowered in the books.

Am I the only one thinking that Hoid should totally be the referee for these matchups?

[Firiel]

Would Vasher automatically beat all "evil" characters by simply tossing the sheathed Nightblood at them?

[CrazyRioter]

Am I the only one thinking that Hoid should totally be the referee for these matchups?

Well, seeing as the setup involves a time-traveling Hoid and a Shadesmar deathship, at least according to Chaos, I think we can easily do that.

[FeatherWriter]

That and I love the idea of the "Welcome to the Cosmere" speech he'd have to give the competitors. And introductions would be hilarious.

*points to Vin* Don't give her metal.

*points to Vasher* Don't touch his sword.

*points to Kaladin* If you decide to touch the sword anyway, go see him.

Sorry, I'm all in OCT mode. I'm already thinking up a backstory for the competition, NPCs, and in-between matches interaction.

[CrazyRioter]

don't apologize, that's hilarious. We should totally turn this into a whole big story or something.

[Cuaiir]

as for the atium issue, I think it would be fair if we gave the Mistborn maybe a five second burn per match. Not much of an advantage, but plenty to turn the tide.

[Zas678]

I think that's a little bit of a copout. I think maybe, as a last resort... But maybe Hoid would prevent it (because Hoid knows Odium wouldn't fall for it).

Also, here is the requested quote:

In your gut instinct, who would win in a fight, Marsh (no atium, limited feruchemy) or Szeth? (Or maybe we could go Zane & Szeth since I see a lot of similarities in their characters. They also happen to be my favorites from their respective series)

First question: It's always hard to answer these questions, since there are so many factors. Do the combatants start at a distance? If so, Marsh/Zane have a huge advantage; they have the ability to fling coins.

Does Szeth have metal on him? Szeth's Shardblade would be mostly immune to Pushing and Pulling, as it's an Invested object. But he'd still have trouble getting to them if he had a clasp on his shoes, for example. He doesn't carry a lot of metal, but he might have some.

EDIT- diregard the first bit. I didn't see there was a second page. It was about Nightblood.