What Do You Want The 17th Shard Cage Match To Be Like?

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

So, there's a couple of things to go over that I need feedback from you guys to figure out:

1) My original intent was for the bracket to be filled by not just characters from Brandon's books, but from everything, like the Suvudu Cage Match, except not just books. We'd be bringing in stuff from everywhere, like comic books or video games or TV shows or anime. BUT, the other option is to have it be exclusively characters from Brandon's books, which I think is squandering some really cool potential, but this IS a Brandon fansite, so I'll let you be the judge of that. Either way, you guys pick who goes in almost entirely. (I have those I want in, myself. XP)

2) I'm not sure the judging of rounds should be vote based or more of a general consensus. General consensus concerning who would win would cut out the fandom squabbles that Suvudu struggles with so much, but wouldn't work so well for a Brandon-centric bracket because it would take longer. Voting speeds things up, but can lead to an unbalanced vote due to fandom loyalties. I want this to be very much a logical process. An honest "who would win" debate.

Any other issues I'm missing? Any comments or recommendations? Post em here!

Edited April 9, 2011 by Silus - Shard of Flame

[Puck]

I think that, due to the nature of this site, we should stick to Brandon's works. At least for the first round

[Link Von Kelsier Harvey]

I agree to stick with Brandon's work for the first round. Fandom loyalties shouldn't be much of an issue, since all the characters come from the fandom we're loyal to. Let's just vote for now. Keeps things simpler.

[Chaos]

I say it makes most sense to have Brandon's characters, and do it via voting.

[Joe ST]

I say it makes most sense to have Brandon's characters, and do it via voting.

I dunno, endless polls are boring... and discussion may lead to new knowledge/theories...

[mycoltbug]

I agree with Chaos. It might even be nice to get a list of the characters we would most like to see in it, but that brings up the interesting concept of if Nightblood would be allowed to participate. Not technically a human but definitely a character or would it just be assumed that Nightblood is with Vasher? Oh and I think no Hoid for obvious reasons.

[Chaos]

Oh and I think no Hoid for obvious reasons.

I concur.

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

The problem is that I'm not even sure we would have enough people to fill a bracket in an interesting way since a lot of characters have serious overlap in their powers. Kelsier, Vin and Elend are all Mistborn, and the Inquisitors are basically Mistborn when it comes to combat apart from some Feruchemy.

We also have some serious knowledge gaps. We don't really know enough about Soulcasting, Aons or Dakhor magic to really include them. I mean we "know" how Aons work, you draw the Aons in the air and they do stuff, but we don't really know enough about the straight and basic mechanics of it to effectively use it. Same with Soulcasting.

Then there's some real problems in terms of power balancing. Aons are pretty darn impractical for combat unless you've been practicing like crazy like Raoden, and even then he was defeated rather decisively. Mistings wouldn't fit because they get outclassed pretty quickly by just about everyone. And Awakening only works if you're a master with a good chunk of Breath like Vasher or maybe Denth.

I just don't see it coming together very well. Am I biased, yes, but that doesn't mean these aren't real issues.

[Chaos]

Dalinar, Szeth, Kaladin, Jasnah, Vin, Elend, Kelsier, Marsh, Sazed, Zane, Spook (with Pewter), Vasher, Raoden, Dilaf, Alcatraz, Dennison (from Firstborn).

Sixteen.

You're welcome

EDIT: Alternates can include Hrathen, Bastille, Shallan, Adolin, Kiin, Galladon, TenSoon, Sadeas, Shuden, Denth, and Susebron.

Overpowered would be the Lord Ruler, but don't discount Vasher, since you can't push on Invested objects (Awakened objects are Invested).

Take your pick. Now I really want to see a Lord Ruler vs. Vasher matchup...

Short version, there are plenty of characters to work with here.

Edited April 8, 2011 by Chaos

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

Dalinar, Szeth, Kaladin, Jasnah, Vin, Elend, Kelsier, Marsh, Sazed, Zane, Spook (with Pewter), Vasher, Raoden, Dilaf, Alcatraz, Dennison (from Firstborn).

EDIT: Alternates can include Hrathen, Bastille, Shallan, Adolin, Kiin, Galladon, TenSoon, Sadeas, Shuden, Denth, and Susebron.

The only differences between Szeth and Kaladin are that Kaladin uses a spear where Szeth uses a Shardblade, plus Kaladin, as a Windrunning novice, can't use Basic Lashings.

The differences between Vin, Kelsier and Elend are even more minute, since they all the same powers and weapons. Spook can't measure up to them because they have almost eight times as many metals as him that they can use in combat.

Raoden has the problems I outlined before, as do Jasnah, Shallan, Dilaf, Galladon, and Hrathen.

Adolin and Dalinar would be identical fighters apart from skill level.

Susebron is overpowered with so much Breath.

Why is Kiin even on this list? He's a normal guy!

Really, it boils down to the same problems. Not enough variation between competitors to be really interesting and lack of knowledge of certain types of powers, particularly the Sel characters.

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

Adding a poll.

[SOM1else]

We need to add out-of-cosmere characters to make it work. I suggest Aang and Darth Vader

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

I want to see Dalinar or Szeth go up against Commander Shepard from Mass Effect. It would be quite the spectacle to put it mildly.

Aang and Darth Vader would rock so much. Not sure whether Aang is overpowered, though.

[Chaos]

The only differences between Szeth and Kaladin are that Kaladin uses a spear where Szeth uses a Shardblade, plus Kaladin, as a Windrunning novice, can't use Basic Lashings.

The differences between Vin, Kelsier and Elend are even more minute, since they all the same powers and weapons. Spook can't measure up to them because they have almost eight times as many metals as him that they can use in combat.

Raoden has the problems I outlined before, as do Jasnah, Shallan, Dilaf, Galladon, and Hrathen.

Adolin and Dalinar would be identical fighters apart from skill level.

Susebron is overpowered with so much Breath.

Why is Kiin even on this list? He's a normal guy!

Really, it boils down to the same problems. Not enough variation between competitors to be really interesting and lack of knowledge of certain types of powers, particularly the Sel characters.

See, it's not just about powers, it's about popularity. Szeth vs. Kaladin is very interesting in that respect.

For the Mistborn characters, it is even more important. They have different personalities, and different skill sets. Spook is also interesting for this reason, and has a very unique combination of powers. This is about way more than simple power. Besides, the cage match should be randomized, so it'll be less Mistborn vs. Mistborn and more, "Huh, what's Spook going to do against Dilaf?" You can't tell me you don't want to know about that. That's why cage matches are awesome.

Jasnah, for example, is completely BA and I desperately want to see how she does.

Hrathen because he is BA and motivated. Jasnah vs. Hrathen? Yes. That would be awesome. Dilaf also because of BAness.

You're right, Kiin is such a loser. That Dreok Crushthroat sounds unthreatening in every way. Especially to thrones. No thrones ever are in danger of Dreok Crushthroat. What a pansy.

That's why we vote on it, instead of taking this way too seriously and analyzing every little detail. You don't need to know all of Dilaf's powers. Dilaf vs. Vasher, go. Let's have people vote on it. That's why this is fun.

EDIT: For example, it's how Jon Snow can beat magic users that he has no business to win against. Cage matches are one part realistic, one part popularity contest. Exactly as it should be.

[CrazyRioter]

I wanna see Harry Potter vs Raoden.

Edit; Jasnah vs Dilaf would be philosophically amusing given their totally opposite character concepts.

But it would depend on how far apart they started if they started far enough apart for Jasnah to pull off the soulcasting-laser beams she did against those thugs before Dilaf got close enough to hit her then Jasnah would win, if they started at close range Dilaf would clobber her into next century before she had a chance to do anything.

Edited April 9, 2011 by CrazyRioter

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

I'm not saying Kiin, or anyone else, isn't cool, he's freaking awesome, but he just doesn't have the abilities to compete on the same level as the others.

Well, how are supposed to say what Spook is going to do against Dilaf if you have no idea what Dilaf is going to do? Which is how things are.

I really don't want this to be about popularity. If that's how it goes we might as well be the Suvudu Cage Match.

[Chaos]

So, I've been thinking about my cage match list, and I want to change my preferred 16. In no particular order,

Jasnah, Vin, Vasher, Raoden, Szeth, Alcatraz, Dalinar, Kaladin, Kelsier, Dilaf, the Lord Ruler, Sazed, TenSoon, Susebron, Sadeas, Marsh

Mistborn characters: Vin's advantages are obvious, being small, quick, and incredibly skilled. Kelsier has an edge of ruthlessness which will serve him well. Marsh has additional Inquisitor abilities which make him a force to be reckoned with. Sazed is all about planning and the strength of Feruchemy. It would be fascinating to see how he does. And TenSoon, because it shakes things up.

The Lord Ruler because I want to see how he will match up against other cosmere characters.

Way of Kings characters: Dalinar and Szeth are the easy choices. Jasnah is powerful and highly motivated. Sadeas for his well-timed betrayals, which would totally give him a huge advantage against someone more naive like Susebron.

Elantris characters: Raoden, naturally. He has similar disadvantages as Sazed, but he deserves to be here. Dilaf for the same sort of class as Sadeas. (Sadeas vs. Dilaf would be amazing)

Warbreaker characters: Vasher because we need an Awakener. I want to see how he fares against a Mistborn or something. Susebron because he's surprisingly balanced--strong, but also naive.

Alcatraz because we need to remember Brandon writes more than cosmere novels, and because he'll sass you into submission.

So, I guess it depends what we're going for here. I imagine it as more of Suvudu style things and less "let's legitimately argue how this would work if Brandon would write it". Focus on fun. Because, um, it should be fun.

If you like this bracket, upvote this post.

[KChan]

If that's how it goes we might as well be the Suvudu Cage Match.

This is interesting to me, because you're also advocating a crossover cage match. If we do that, we're downright stealing from Suvudu, and as a representative of 17th Shard, I simply cannot condone that. Not to mention, if this is a 17th Shard community event, it should focus on Brandon's characters. If you want to have a serious discussion on who would win against whom in a fight in terms of actual ability in a crossover-type setting, you're welcome to start a discussion thread, but a bracketed cage match should be Brandon-only.

EDIT: It's come to my attention that this post sounds a little harsh to some readers. I apologize if it does; I'm just tired. I didn't mean it to be harsh or anything of the like. I was just trying to offer my opinions, the reason behind them, and a potential compromise so we all get what we want. Sorry again for any miscommunication on my part!

Edited April 9, 2011 by KChan

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

It's not like this an official thing, if you want me to take the 17th Shard label off, then fine.

Suvudu is all books, a crossover bracket would be much wider in what goes in. The three mentioned on this page are a TV show, a movie and a game.

Maybe saying that it shouldn't be like Suvudu isn't what I'm trying to say. Suvudu does a lot right, but it also has some flaws. I'm just trying to fix those.

[CrazyRioter]

maybe we could toss some WoT characters in to fill out the bracket? the Wot books are partially Brandon's work now, and most of us have read WoT.

Not Rand though, he's too overpowered as of Towers of Midnight.

Edited April 9, 2011 by CrazyRioter

[Eerongal]

maybe wee could toss some WoT characters in to fill out the bracket? the Wot books are partially Brandon's work now, and most of us have read WoT.

Not Rand though, he's too overpowered as of Towers of Midnight.

I dunno, Rand vs TLR? That would be a fight i'd love to see.

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

Fill out the bracket in terms of an All-Brandon bracket?

[CrazyRioter]

yeah.

[Silus - Shard of Flame]

I don't know about that. If it is an all Brandon bracket, then we're going ALL Brandon. Besides, WoT gets enough exposure in the Suvudu Cage Match.

[Joe ST]

Maybe, instead of voting for the winner, we should vote for the best write-up? (and then 'compile' the brackets at the end?) It would mean you can do crossovers as you wish.

I dunno, I just liked the idea of discussing who would win more than a blind vote.