Random Stuff V - The Adminpire Strikes Back

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

Thought I'd enhance my Potterfic by putting my own spin on the werewolf lore Rowling hasn't already incorporated, so I googled a few things.  This site was one of the top results.

 

[Young Bard he/him]

I just got a shirt with this on it:

While extremely cool, I'm sure it's satiring a Bolshevik Revolution poster. None of you would happen to know it, would you?

[The Honor Spren she/her]

I just got a shirt with this on it:

While extremely cool, I'm sure it's satiring a Bolshevik Revolution poster. None of you would happen to know it, would you?

When you are suuuuper tired and think that "empire" is actually "internet."

MEMES!

WIKIS!

SOCIAL MEDIA!

JOIN THE INTERNET!

Sign in now!

Edited December 15, 2015 by The Honor Spren

[Curious Anamaximder he/him]

*walks into thread*

*sees memes*

*screams in delight*

[Delightful]

So someone linked me to this very long article about emotional labour. Suddenly a lot of things make sense. It'll take a while but I reccomend reading through it.

[Curious Anamaximder he/him]

Steampunk Pony, go!!

[Quiver he/him]

Linking this from Tor; what are your chances of taking the DS9-crew in a fight.

 

http://shevathegun.tumblr.com/post/132583277240/the-if-i-fought-this-ds9-character-would-i-win

[Delightful]

What's that website? She vathe gun? Sheva the gun? She vat he gun?

[Guest]

So someone linked me to this very long article about emotional labour. Suddenly a lot of things make sense. It'll take a while but I reccomend reading through it.

I have to say, I disagree with quite a lot of the conclusions the author draws about "toxic masculinity," but I would have to read it more closely before my objections become coherent. Fundamentally, I don't like the very idea of an entire class of people calling another class of people sexist. It's almost reverse sexism, yes? The group effect rears its head here. Men are mostly scared to defend themselves from the attacks on them, because they would be vilified in the media and the Internet for it, even if their objections to being called "sexist" are logical and sound. Sure, there is some sexism in the world, but I don't think that there is a huge systemic issue anymore. The sheer amount of political speech, writing, etc., etc. on this subject has (I think) served its purpose well, and now moved on from a pro-woman stance to an anti-man stance. Just a thought...

[Delightful]

Did you literally just read the phrase "toxic masculinity" mentioned all of once and then comment?

Please arm yourself with an open mind and actually read it.

[Guest]

Did you literally just read the phrase "toxic masculinity" mentioned all of once and then comment?

Please arm yourself with an open mind and actually read it.

...I read the whole thing before I commented. :/

[Delightful]

Um. Ok. What's going on here then?

As I see it, the point of the article was not to label anyone anything.

It points out that emotional labour exists, defines it, explains why it's important, and then many many women have given examples of where they have had the entire burden of emotional labour in a relationship. It's not anti-men, it's highlighting a behavioural pattern that can and does apply to anyone, but is most clearly seen between sexes. I thought the whole thing was quite nuanced, actually.

Re sexism in general; it's definitely not as large a problem as basic rights like suffrage in the West, but it exists in more sly, subtle ways that erode at your self esteem in tiny little pieces and makes things difficult. From my own experience,

When I was about seven I asked a relative why they were so excited about watching sports and how the game worked. Instead of an explanation, I got an eye roll and "girls. They just don't get it."

At around the same time, I wanted to join a group of boys playing some spider man console game. They eventually eventually let me play, but gave me incorrect instructions so I would get out and my turn would be over - because I was a girl.

I've been told I do things "like a girl" in a tone and manner that belittles me, and as a young teen that left me wondering how the hell I was supposed to do anything - and when I started replying to that (and to "man up") with "of corse I do it this way I am a girl" I got eye rolls and "come on you know what I mean". Ie, you know I am using femininity as an insult and masculinity as an ideal, so just.....work out how to be what you're not.

I've had people cursorily acknowledge me and speak to a man I was with, while I was the one who actually needed to speak to them.

When looking for characters to cos/play as, I always got the one girl in a film or book because there was only one girl and often she wasn't all that interesting, more often that not to hang around, be saved, and be a girlfriend to the hero. Sometimes said characters can fight so they're strong women etc but they still have no life and personality outside of their relevance to the hero. Which is not very fun to play.

I could go on; the point is that sexism is still an issue, and that's precisely why it's talked about so much. It's not anti-men, it's not saying all x people are evil, and because it subtle it's harder to put your finger on than "can a woman vote".

Edit: somewhat relevant article (short) about a teen boy in India and his relationship with his sister and chores.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Delightful

[Orlion Blight he/him]

That is the impression I got as well. Seems more about a specific aspect of gender roles and not sexism.

[Guest]

As I see it, the point of the article was not to label anyone anything.

It points out that emotional labour exists, defines it, explains why it's important, and then many many women have given examples of where they have had the entire burden of emotional labour in a relationship. It's not anti-men, it's highlighting a behavioural pattern that can and does apply to anyone, but is most clearly seen between sexes. I thought the whole thing was quite nuanced, actually.

Many, many women giving examples does not imply a large-scale behavioral problem, and inferring a large-scale behavioral problem from many, many stories is a mistake. Who do you think was most likely to speak up in these threads and tell stories of sexism, women who have not experienced this kind of sexism or women who have experienced this kind of sexism? This is a problem I have with a lot of "studies" that really only consult the desired side of an issue. Suppose I was doing a study on different eye colors in Washington D.C., and I put an advertisement in the paper that said, "We need people to a participate in a study on the different eye-colors in the city, but only apply if you have grey eyes." What do you think the conclusion of the study would be?

Re sexism in general; it's definitely not as large a problem as basic rights like suffrage in the West, but it exists in more sly, subtle ways that erode at your self esteem in tiny little pieces and makes things difficult. From my own experience,

When I was about seven I asked a relative why they were so excited about watching sports and how the game worked. Instead of an explanation, I got an eye roll and "girls. They just don't get it."

At around the same time, I wanted to join a group of boys playing some spider man console game. They ect justly eventually let me play, but gave me incorrect instructions so I would get out and my turn would be over - because I was a girl.

I've been told I do things "like a girl" in a tone and manner that belittles me, and as a young teen that left me wondering how the hell I was supposed to do anything - and when I started replying to that (and to "man up") with "of corse I do it this way I am a girl" I got eye rolls and "come on you know what I mean".

I've had people cursorily acknowledge me and speak to a man I was with, while I was the one who actually needed to speak to them.

When looking for characters to cos/play as, I always got the one girl in a film because there was only one girl and often she wasn't all that interesting.

I could go on; the point is that sexism is still an issue, and that's precisely why it's talked about so much. It's not anti-men, it's not saying all x people are evil, and because it subtle it's harder to put your finger on than "can a woman vote".

I see what you mean, and far be it from be to diminish your experiences. But these examples are just common stereotypes that exist across the board. There was a thread on here a while ago about gender stereotypes, and it's interesting to note that many males expressed irritation and hurt at the cultural expectations placed on them. Girls are not the only ones who are belittled if they don't do "girl stuff." There's a very powerful peer pressure among guys to do "guy stuff," and trust me, I am looked down on by many people because of the things that I like that aren't typical "guy things." Sexism is not just a male-to-female issue.

If you really think this whole second-wave feminism thing isn't turning into an anti-man thing, you are mistaken.

Example: A female, black (her race isn't important to the endgame of this) rapper a while back did an interview where she expressed some very racist, sexist, hateful ideas. A blogger wrote a post suggesting that she leave America if she hated it so much (Note: it was rude). The rapper then responded to the male blogger by tweeting a picture of her genitals and saying basically, "Shut up, all people come from women, we will rule the world." He responded by saying that it wasn't civil to do what she did. And he was immediately crucified. Cries of "body shaming," "sexism," etc., etc. He received death threats, all for saying that it wasn't an appropriate thing to do to tweet a picture of one's genitals. Now imagine if the situation had been reversed. Suppose the male blogger tweeted a picture of his genitals. Wow, I wonder what would happen.

Point is, at least in American culture, there is a very real movement towards the other kind of sexism, female-to-male.

My conclusion is that large-scale behavioral patterns of sexism at this point in time are largely conjured up by a mass frenzy, and have very little factual basis. Many cases of individual sexism do not imply a systemic issue. I wonder how many of those women from the article expect things of the men that are rooted in gender stereotypes.

[Curious Anamaximder he/him]

Many, many women giving examples does not imply a large-scale behavioral problem, and inferring a large-scale behavioral problem from many, many stories is a mistake. Who do you think was most likely to speak up in these threads and tell stories of sexism, women who have not experienced this kind of sexism or women who have experienced this kind of sexism? This is a problem I have with a lot of "studies" that really only consult the desired side of an issue. Suppose I was doing a study on different eye colors in Washington D.C., and I put an advertisement in the paper that said, "We need people to a participate in a study on the different eye-colors in the city, but only apply if you have grey eyes." What do you think the conclusion of the study would be?I see what you mean, and far be it from be to diminish your experiences. But these examples are just common stereotypes that exist across the board. There was a thread on here a while ago about gender stereotypes, and it's interesting to note that many males expressed irritation and hurt at the cultural expectations placed on them. Girls are not the only ones who are belittled if they don't do "girl stuff." There's a very powerful peer pressure among guys to do "guy stuff," and trust me, I am looked down on by many people because of the things that I like that aren't typical "guy things." Sexism is not just a male-to-female issue.

If you really think this whole second-wave feminism thing isn't turning into an anti-man thing, you are mistaken.

Example: A female, black (her race isn't important to the endgame of this) rapper a while back did an interview where she expressed some very racist, sexist, hateful ideas. A blogger wrote a post suggesting that she leave America if she hated it so much (Note: it was rude). The rapper then responded to the male blogger by tweeting a picture of her genitals and saying basically, "Shut up, all people come from women, we will rule the world." He responded by saying that it wasn't civil to do what she did. And he was immediately crucified. Cries of "body shaming," "sexism," etc., etc. He received death threats, all for saying that it wasn't an appropriate thing to do to tweet a picture of one's genitals. Now imagine if the situation had been reversed. Suppose the male blogger tweeted a picture of his genitals. Wow, I wonder what would happen.

Point is, at least in American culture, there is a very real movement towards the other kind of sexism, female-to-male.

My conclusion is that large-scale behavioral patterns of sexism at this point in time are largely conjured up by a mass frenzy, and have very little factual basis. Many cases of individual sexism do not imply a systemic issue. I wonder how many of those women from the article expect things of the men that are rooted in gender stereotypes.

Very true. Women share most of the sexism stories cause people think that women are lower in the hierarchy. I am all for equality, but sometimes we need to hear both sides of the story. Men can be looked down on as well, especially for doing things that are "girly" or "lame". Even some women look down on men for doing stuff like MLP or being gay.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles she/her]

Many, many women giving examples does not imply a large-scale behavioral problem, and inferring a large-scale behavioral problem from many, many stories is a mistake. Who do you think was most likely to speak up in these threads and tell stories of sexism, women who have not experienced this kind of sexism or women who have experienced this kind of sexism? This is a problem I have with a lot of "studies" that really only consult the desired side of an issue. Suppose I was doing a study on different eye colors in Washington D.C., and I put an advertisement in the paper that said, "We need people to a participate in a study on the different eye-colors in the city, but only apply if you have grey eyes." What do you think the conclusion of the study would be?

 

I'm going to disagree on the point that multiple similar stories does not imply a large-scale behavioral problem. Imagine if this logic were applied to the brake problems Ford customers had a few years ago. A handful of instances would have been an anomaly. A large number of similar instances posed a problem, and meant that there was something fundamentally wrong with the way Ford was  going about their business. The same applies here: A handful of similar stories would be an anomaly; "many, many" similar stories is cause for concern. If so many people are experiencing the same thing, we should look into it and see if there's a root cause. 

 

 

I see what you mean, and far be it from be to diminish your experiences. But these examples are just common stereotypes that exist across the board. There was a thread on here a while ago about gender stereotypes, and it's interesting to note that many males expressed irritation and hurt at the cultural expectations placed on them. Girls are not the only ones who are belittled if they don't do "girl stuff." There's a very powerful peer pressure among guys to do "guy stuff," and trust me, I am looked down on by many people because of the things that I like that aren't typical "guy things." Sexism is not just a male-to-female issue.

 

 

If those are "similar stereotypes that exist across the board," shouldn't we be looking into ridding ourselves of them? If they damage men as much as they damage women, wouldn't it be better for society if we worked at eliminating them altogether? 

 

If you really think this whole second-wave feminism thing isn't turning into an anti-man thing, you are mistaken.

Example: A female, black (her race isn't important to the endgame of this) rapper a while back did an interview where she expressed some very racist, sexist, hateful ideas. A blogger wrote a post suggesting that she leave America if she hated it so much (Note: it was rude). The rapper then responded to the male blogger by tweeting a picture of her genitals and saying basically, "Shut up, all people come from women, we will rule the world." He responded by saying that it wasn't civil to do what she did. And he was immediately crucified. Cries of "body shaming," "sexism," etc., etc. He received death threats, all for saying that it wasn't an appropriate thing to do to tweet a picture of one's genitals. Now imagine if the situation had been reversed. Suppose the male blogger tweeted a picture of his genitals. Wow, I wonder what would happen.

 

One rapper, who resorted to the most extreme response, does not a militant anti-male movement make. I won't deny that there are some women who take feminism to that extreme, and I won't disagree when you say they're in the wrong. I'd even say they're causing more problems for feminism than they think they're solving. If there are multiple examples of women doing this, then we have a problem; but from all I've seen, this isn't a thing. Many modern feminists are angry, yes, but they express that anger in healthier, less antisocial ways. 

 

Also, random nitpick: If her race wasn't important, why did you mention it? 

 

Point is, at least in American culture, there is a very real movement towards the other kind of sexism, female-to-male.

My conclusion is that large-scale behavioral patterns of sexism at this point in time are largely conjured up by a mass frenzy, and have very little factual basis. Many cases of individual sexism do not imply a systemic issue. I wonder how many of those women from the article expect things of the men that are rooted in gender stereotypes.

 

Again, I disagree with your conclusion. Many cases of individual sexism do imply a systemic issue, because it means there is something within the system allowing for those individual cases to happen. 

[Delightful]

This wasn't a study, it was women posting on some kind of forum, I'm not sure where exactly. That document is a condensed version of what people were saying.

How do you point to a large behavioural trend if not by speaking to many people? This isn't three people sitting around complaining, it's example after example after example and I can recognise it in my own life as well. Do you remember #YesAllWomen? It was trending for days, millions (if not millions then at least hundreds of thousands) of women documented their experiences there.

I agree that sexism runs both ways; as there should be no stigma for girls playing with trucks there should be no stigma for boys to be emotional. But I do believe the pressure on women is far greater. Here's another example; men might be looked down on if they're a stay at home dad and that isn't right. For a woman, if she stays at home she must be suppressed and bored. If she works part time "how do you manage?" If her child is raised by a nanny she's a terrible mother for not being at home. Whatever you do is judged unfavourably. If you're fat you're not looking after yourself, if you're skinny you're too thin, if you aren't strong then flabbiness is ugly but if you're too muscular that's also ugly. If you dress up you're asking for attention but if you dress down you're a slob. Can't win.

At one stage in my early teens I would walk around terrified that every random man on the street was a rapist. Of course that's illogical, but it's a fear I bet guys don't have.

Never mind if gender roles were reversed, and I haven't heard this story before - that rapper 100% did the wrong thing and should be condemned for doing so. That is one lone example, not a trend.

The women in the article weren't expected the men to build them a house or fix the car or be able to live a thousand kilos or whatever "manly" things. They were asking the guys to be considerate of what they were feeling, to take personal reaponsibility, and to behave like adults equal to the women, not like children who need to be cooked for and cleaned up after and have their entire social lives organised by Mum.

Again, if many individual cases does not a pattern make then by your definition what does make a pattern? How do you define the female to male sexist pattern you're referring to? Do you have examples beyond the one case of a woman being so far beyond the pale that I should even have to say that was wrong?

Edit: venture, you're correct. But being made fun of for MLP does not equate to fearing for your safety when you walk out after dark or having your existence as a female constantly belittled in a thousand subtle ways.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Delightful

[Delightful]

Accidental double post

Edited December 15, 2015 by Delightful

[Delightful]

This wasn't a study, it was women posting on some kind of forum, I'm not sure where exactly. That document is a condensed version of what people were saying.

How do you point to a large behavioural trend if not by speaking to many people? This isn't three people sitting around complaining, it's example after example after example and I can recognise it in my own life as well. Do you remember #YesAllWomen? It was trending for days, millions (if not millions then at least hundreds of thousands) of women documented their experiences there.

I agree that sexism runs both ways; as there should be no stigma for girls playing with trucks there should be no stigma for boys to be emotional. But I do believe the pressure on women is far greater. Here's another example; men might be looked down on if they're a stay at home dad and that isn't right. For a woman, if she stays at home she must be suppressed and bored. If she works part time "how do you manage?" If her child is raised by a nanny she's a terrible mother for not being at home. Whatever you do is judged unfavourably. If you're fat you're not looking after yourself, if you're skinny you're too thin, if you aren't strong then flabbiness is ugly but if you're too muscular that's also ugly. If you dress up you're asking for attention but if you dress down you're a slob. Can't win.

At one stage in my early teens I would walk around terrified that every random man on the street was a rapist. Of course that's illogical, but it's a fear I bet guys don't have.

Never mind if gender roles were reversed, and I haven't heard this story before - that rapper 100% did the wrong thing and should be condemned for doing so. That is one lone example, not a trend.

The women in the article weren't expected the men to build them a house or fix the car or be able to live a thousand kilos or whatever "manly" things. They were asking the guys to be considerate of what they were feeling, to take personal reaponsibility, and to behave like adults equal to the women, not like children who need to be cooked for and cleaned up after and have their entire social lives organised by Mum.

Again, if many individual cases does not a pattern make then by your definition what does make a pattern? How do you define the female to male sexist pattern you're referring to? Do you have examples beyond the one case of a woman being so far beyond the pale that I shouldn't even have to say that was wrong?

Edit: venture, you're correct. But being made fun of for MLP does not equate to fearing for your safety when you walk out after dark or having your existence as a female constantly belittled in a thousand subtle ways.

I'm on mobile and I don't know what format is doing. My phone sends her apologies :/.

Oh. I quoted instead of edited.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Delightful

[The Honor Spren she/her]

Edit: somewhat relevant article (short) about a teen boy in India and his relationship with his sister and chores.

That was a great story! I listened to it on the news the other day. 

[Curious Anamaximder he/him]

This wasn't a study, it was women posting on some kind of forum, I'm not sure where exactly. That document is a condensed version of what people were saying.

How do you point to a large behavioural trend if not by speaking to many people? This isn't three people sitting around complaining, it's example after example after example and I can recognise it in my own life as well. Do you remember #YesAllWomen? It was trending for days, millions (if not millions then at least hundreds of thousands) of women documented their experiences there.

I agree that sexism runs both ways; as there should be no stigma for girls playing with trucks there should be no stigma for boys to be emotional. But I do believe the pressure on women is far greater. Here's another example; men might be looked down on if they're a stay at home dad and that isn't right. For a woman, if she stays at home she must be suppressed and bored. If she works part time "how do you manage?" If her child is raised by a nanny she's a terrible mother for not being at home. Whatever you do is judged unfavourably. If you're fat you're not looking after yourself, if you're skinny you're too thin, if you aren't strong then flabbiness is ugly but if you're too muscular that's also ugly. If you dress up you're asking for attention but if you dress down you're a slob. Can't win.

At one stage in my early teens I would walk around terrified that every random man on the street was a rapist. Of course that's illogical, but it's a fear I bet guys don't have.

Never mind if gender roles were reversed, and I haven't heard this story before - that rapper 100% did the wrong thing and should be condemned for doing so. That is one lone example, not a trend.

The women in the article weren't expected the men to build them a house or fix the car or be able to live a thousand kilos or whatever "manly" things. They were asking the guys to be considerate of what they were feeling, to take personal reaponsibility, and to behave like adults equal to the women, not like children who need to be cooked for and cleaned up after and have their entire social lives organised by Mum.

Again, if many individual cases does not a pattern make then by your definition what does make a pattern? How do you define the female to male sexist pattern you're referring to? Do you have examples beyond the one case of a woman being so far beyond the pale that I should even have to say that was wrong?

Edit: venture, you're correct. But being made fun of for MLP does not equate to fearing for your safety when you walk out after dark or having your existence as a female constantly belittled in a thousand subtle ways.

Yes. I recognize that, and I meant no ignorance.

It's just that the world is a dark, gritty place, where empathy doesn't exist.

[Delightful]

Yes. I recognize that, and I meant no ignorance.

It's just that the world is a dark, gritty place, where empathy doesn't exist.

I'm gonna be an optimist: empathy does exist. We have to help it grow instead of abandoning it to the dark. That's why I brought this up; my intention definitely wasn't to start an argument because I'm a troll. I wanted to discuss and add more perspectives and hopefully help us all be even a little more kind to each other and the people we know.

[The Honor Spren she/her]

. . . I'm just gonna leave now. I don't do very well with online confrontation. Have a good discussion!

[Delightful]

. . . I'm just gonna leave now. I don't do very well with online confrontation. Have a good discussion!

*hugs*

[Orlion Blight he/him]

. . . I'm just gonna leave now. I don't do very well with online confrontation. Have a good discussion!

I don't blame you.

As far as the world lacking empathy? I believe that is demonstrably false. But that is beside the point. Even if the world were completely devoid of empathy or good will, that does not excuse us as moral agents to conflate what "is" with what "ought to be." Otherwise, we are shirking our moral responsibilities.