Okdes Posted November 28, 2015 Report Share Posted November 28, 2015 Let's not mince words. This is my idea of the Oathpact, but I have no idea if I'm right. So, I turn to you, my brethren, to correct me where I went wrong. A. Honor and Odium were at odds. Odium is clearly more powerful B. Honor realizes if he doesn't do something, Odium will murder everyone on Roshan C. Honor makes a deal with Odium (The Oathpact) saying Odium gets to kill Honor and torture his Heralds, and he still gets to try to end the world, but Odium will let the Heralds go early to warn/prepare humanity.The Heralds set up the Knights Radiant to keep humanity ready between Desolations and so they have less work to do when they come back. D. One Hundred Desolations, the Herald set fed up with all this torture. So the nine who survive abandon it, leaving Talenelat to suffer in Damnation, telling Humanity the Desolations have ended E. The Knights Radiant discover this and abandon their posts (As seen in Dalinar's vision) F. Odium decides this next Desolation will kill all of humanity. He still releases Talenelat early, but much too late for him to help. Talenelat's mind is fractured from sustaining the torture meant for ten all on his own. At some indeterminate time, Nan reclaimed his Honorblade. I understand some of this is speculation, but this is my idea on what likely happened. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kaellok Posted November 28, 2015 Report Share Posted November 28, 2015 Some of what you speculate is possible, but the rest of it doesn't match up with some things that we know (whether from in-book, or interviews/questions). Here's a few pertinent quotes: Original parties for Oathpact were Honor and Heralds only. (I've not seen any questions that expand upon this "original" phrasing. INTERVIEW: Mar 19th, 2014 WoR Signing Report - darkanimereal1 and luke (Verbatim) QUESTION ()How many parties were there to the original Oathpact? BRANDON SANDERSONThe Heralds and Honor. They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact. They're going to find out that it's not quite as broken as they had previously thought (meaning the Heralds). Oathpact is still in effect (possibly only because of Taln's participation). INTERVIEW: Oct 14th, 2013 Steelheart Signing Report - Shardlet (Verbatim) WETLANDERWas Odium able to Splinter Honor because the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact? BRANDON SANDERSON Good question. Um, their abandonment of the Oathpact is related... but mostly tangentially. If I was pinned down on that, I would say no. WETLANDERIs there any of the Oathpact still functioning because of Taln's continued participation? BRANDON SANDERSONYes, indeed. There is much and more discussion about what caused the Recreance. I remain utterly convinced that it is something completely different than Radiants finding out that the Heralds abandoned their post some hundreds or thousands of years prior. Some percentage, sure, but not en mass as they did. Such an action would be antithetical to the Windrunners in particular--surely there would have been a sizable percentage of those known for being honorable that would have kept to the ideals of honor even if the Heralds weren't true. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okdes Posted November 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2015 Okay, thanks for clearing that up. Ugh, and that idea actually made a lot of sense. If Odium wasn't involved in the Oathpact, then why is he so damnation involved in the Oathpact? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young Bard Posted November 28, 2015 Report Share Posted November 28, 2015 Maybe Honor and Odium are the same person with multiple personality disorder. Seriously, we don't have enough information to be able to rule out anything at the minute. Most of the little information we do have has been tainted from the War of Loss era, and Brandon has consistently RAFO'ed a lot of the questions. Which basically leaves us with the prelude. Which we only hear to provide a sense of drama and gravitas for the rest of the book. And is probably biased based on the herald's opinion. For all we know, the Herald's torture could have been a small footnote at the bottom of the Oathpact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser Posted November 28, 2015 Report Share Posted November 28, 2015 (edited) Let's not mince words. This is my idea of the Oathpact, ... C. Honor makes a deal with Odium (The Oathpact) saying Odium gets to kill Honor and torture his Heralds, and he still gets to try to end the world, but Odium will let the Heralds go early to warn/prepare humanity.The Heralds set up the Knights Radiant to keep humanity ready between Desolations and so they have less work to do when they come back. D. One Hundred Desolations, the Herald set fed up with all this torture. So the nine who survive abandon it, leaving Talenelat to suffer in Damnation, telling Humanity the Desolations have ended E. The Knights Radiant discover this and abandon their posts (As seen in Dalinar's vision) ... With regard to C, I have questions. There is WoB that Honor was alive when the Heralds quit. How could that be when he agreed to let himself be killed at the beginning of the Oathpact? Consider also Dalinar's final vision in tWoK. Honor says, "I should have realized he'd come for me." This doesn't seem compatible with agreeing to be killed. As for E., there is the following WoB that seems incompatible to me: Interview: Nov 10th, 2011 Alloy of Law Signing Report - Green Hoodie Mistborn (Verbatim) Question Was the Almighty still alive when the Heralds packed it in, and did the Radiants pack it in in direct response to what the Heralds did? Brandon Sanderson The Radiants did NOT abandon their post as a response to the Heralds. The Radiants abandoned it for some other reason which will become evident eventually. The Almighty was still around when the Heralds did their thing. Edit: punctuation Edited November 28, 2015 by hoser 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted November 28, 2015 Report Share Posted November 28, 2015 Odium is not necessarily more powerful than Honor. Cultivation, by herself, is successfully countering most of what Odium tries to do (hence why Odium hasn't just sandblasted Roshar with explosions): [–]Wolfbeckett Since it seems you're still answering questions here (Wow! That's some serious dedication!), I thought I'd ask one myself. Are things that are written by scholars on Roshar suspect? In Mistborn, Ruin could change anything that was written down, so can Odium do the same? Are written words on Roshar: untrustworthy, trustworthy because that ability was somehow limited to Ruin, or trustworthy because Odium COULD do it but just won't because it's not his style/he doesn't consider it? permalink[–]mistborn[S]Odium didn't have a hand in creating Roshar, and his essence doesn't permeate it in the same way as Ruin permeated Scadrial. This gave Ruin a great deal more power over things like this--except when he ran into metals, of course.Another difference is that Odium has a fully-living, fully-aware, and very powerful Shard opposing him. (Contrasted to one that was half-dead and going mad.)So yes, you can trust much of what was written. Odium can be subtle when he needs to be, but his primary avenue of attack has been along a different line than the one Ruin used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jondesu Posted November 29, 2015 Report Share Posted November 29, 2015 Odium wasn't a part of the Oathpact, as Brandon said, and I suspect the torture of the Heralds actually wasn't either. Like Ruin did with the mists on Scadrial, I suspect Odium co-opted the magic or something involved in the Oathpact. Their torture was therefore either revenge for or a distortion of the actual pact that was made, rather than part of the original plan or agreement, I think. (Disclaimer: I haven't fully thought this through and it doesn't have tons of evidence, but seems to fit better with Honor's Intent and his part in all of this). jW 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate Posted November 29, 2015 Report Share Posted November 29, 2015 Not to say I think you're wrong, you may be right, but it may be that it's part of Honor's plan. What could be more honorable than to subject yourself to millness of torment, only to come back to life and save humanity again. Though, it is interesting how, if the Heralds remain, they cause another Desolation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoddessIMHO Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 I haven't been able to understand the torture at all. It doesn't make any sense to me that it could be part of the oathpact unless someone did twist it after the deal was made. Is there anything more about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSC01 Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 There really isn't any more information about it, but there may be some clues. I've noticed that religions in the Cosmere tend to have some grains of truth to them and reflect what is actually going on with the Shards, even if that reflection is somewhat distorted. The Vorin doctrine on the Tranquilline Halls may be in some way related to this. That is, Honor originally had a safe place for his Heralds to rest in between Desolations, but Odium overtook it and turned it into a nightmare. If it was already locked in as part of the Oathpact, I have the feeling that Tanavast would be blocked by his own Shard's Intent from changing the terms of the deal that kept his Heralds immortal. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 On the note of Herald immortality, what about that one who died? What happened to him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSC01 Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 He's back, but he's chilling in an insane asylum. It's turns out that being tortured for 4,500 years isn't good for your mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 I thought that wasn't actually the Herald. In the end of WoK, it says the Herald dies, unless I'm mistaken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted December 1, 2015 Report Share Posted December 1, 2015 (edited) I thought that wasn't actually the Herald. In the end of WoK, it says the Herald dies, unless I'm mistaken. He falls like he died, but it is left ambiguos. Of course, it is also left ambiguos if he is an herald or not. In WoR he is revealed to be alive. I would advice you to avoid this part of the forum before reading it, since here spoilers run wild. Edited December 1, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSC01 Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 I'm pretty sure that he just passed out. The Coppermind says that he didn't die, but I don't really understand their reasoning--that Honorblades disappear when the person bonded to them dies--because that's not what happens when Szeth dies. Is the blade still bonded to Jezrien, then? I don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSC01 Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) Sorry, double post. Browser being weird. Edited December 2, 2015 by DSC01 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charononus Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 He's back, but he's chilling in an insane asylum. It's turns out that being tortured for 4,500 years isn't good for your mind. Considering the rest of the Heralds don't seem to be in much better shape after a 4500 torture free vacation, his mind has to be seriously broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 I'm pretty sure that he just passed out. The Coppermind says that he didn't die, but I don't really understand their reasoning--that Honorblades disappear when the person bonded to them dies--because that's not what happens when Szeth dies. Is the blade still bonded to Jezrien, then? I don't know. When Heralds die, they don't actually die - they go to Damnation. They bring their Blades with them. So, if Taln died, his Blade would have disappeared and rejoined him there. Kalak explicitly says it in the Prelude of TWoK: Each was a masterly work of art, flowing in design, inscribed with glyphs and patterns. He recognized each one. If their masters had died, the Blades would have vanished. The thing with Szeth is that he's not a Herald, so when he dies he dies for real. In that case, his Blade will of course drop by his corpse. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Mister Posted December 2, 2015 Report Share Posted December 2, 2015 (edited) They thought that by walking away from their oaths, that it would break the Oathpact. With it having such a name, I wonder if maybe it's the "pact" part that's still in effect, with the "oath" being the Heralds' promise to make sure to "pact" was mantained. Meaning maybe it's gonna be Odium who breaks the "pact" part, in contrast with Preservation and Ruin's dealtract. Edited December 2, 2015 by Mr. Mister Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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