writelhd she/her Posted December 28, 2013 Report Share Posted December 28, 2013 So, the biggest thing that bothered me, in a good way, about the Way of Kings, was Szeth. Here's a guy who seems like he was once a pretty decent person, now doing horrible things and hating it. He has an oathstone. Whoever holds the oathstone gets to order him around completely. He can't take his own life. He comes from a culture where only criminals do violence, and it seems that doing violence turns you into a criminal and an outcast and is somehow responsible for his current predicament. Tons and tons of questions raised about his back-story, which I sure will be answered, especially in book 3. The most burning question I have about him now: is he doing all of this assassinating at others' behest because of some strongly-held cultural beliefs, sense of honor, etc, and the oathstone is merely symbolic, or, is he magically compelled by this oathstone and has no ability to choose otherwise? That is to say, if somehow he were to come to a point of epiphany, realize that his people or his heritage or his honor were not worth clinging to if it made him do these horrible things and maybe he ought to just...stop...could he? I hope he's magically compelled in some way, because I'd really not like him very much if he only does this because of a notion of honor that we don't yet understand. Not that you're supposed to like him...but he does seems like he might be someone to be pitied. What do you all think? Does Szeth have free will? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rooster he/him Posted December 28, 2013 Report Share Posted December 28, 2013 I believe he does have free will and fulfills the wishes of the Oathstone holder out of honor. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crisapx he/him Posted December 28, 2013 Report Share Posted December 28, 2013 The oathstone is merely symbolic, it's just a way for him to know who's his owner, there is no compeling done, and Szeth can refuse 2 commands, to kill himself and to give away his blade. I do wonder if the owner attacks Szeth without warning can he defend himself, or is it considered like the command to kill himself allowing him to refuse and fight back... He is bound by his honor, and I believe if he wanted he could stop serving, but years and year of brainwashing will do that to a person, at least that's what I think has happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matrim he/him Posted December 28, 2013 Report Share Posted December 28, 2013 (edited) I think he has free will. I don't have references, but I recall a couple instances where he juggled with the idea of just giving up. I think one was with Mr T in the hospital where he was bleeding people. Edit: Here is the excerpt. Szeth did as his master commanded. What were a few more deaths? Just another set of screams to haunt him. He could hear them now, coming from beneath beds, behind furniture.Or I could kill him, Szeth thought. I could stop this.He nearly did it. But honor prevailed, for the moment. Edited December 28, 2013 by Matrim 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan he/him Posted December 28, 2013 Report Share Posted December 28, 2013 The oathstone is merely symbolic, it's just a way for him to know who's his owner, there is no compeling done, and Szeth can refuse 2 commands, to kill himself and to give away his... While I agree with you in that I think the stone is likely just symbolic, we don't know that for a fact and there are others who disagree, so it's best not to go around stating its symbolism as fact just yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly he/him Posted December 29, 2013 Report Share Posted December 29, 2013 In my opinion, Szeth's hatred of what he does is representative of both his willpower, in that he never goes against his master's orders despite abhoring them, as well as his appalling apathy/self-hatred, in that he does what he is told despite, or maybe partly because of, how much it hurts him. He is a walking contradiction: A huge amount of self-control, but no control over his actions. He even reminds me of a certain character in Mistborn, but mundanely, not magically, controlled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daishi5 Posted December 31, 2013 Report Share Posted December 31, 2013 I think Hoid's story about the people who killed because their "ruler commanded them to" also applies to Szeth. Szeth is truly the one responsible for the deaths because his owner does not actually control him, and one day he will have to face that no one else actually made him kill those people. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet he/him Posted December 31, 2013 Report Share Posted December 31, 2013 Upvote for that great connection, Daishi5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser he/him Posted December 31, 2013 Report Share Posted December 31, 2013 I find his willingness to do what he knows is wrong quite frustrating. I do think this is an example of the way of Odium and Brandon is showing us more than one man's crazy choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todesengel he/him Posted January 1, 2014 Report Share Posted January 1, 2014 I too have struggled with whether he truly has the freedom to choose or not. I really like Szeth. I can totally understand why you (OP) would be upset if we discovered that the oathstone was purely symbolic and he is making his choices solely for honor's sake. I, however, do believe that there is something more to it than that. Unfortunately, I don't have much fact to back up my belief because I read the book months ago and don't remember enough to quote anything. It seems to me that honor has a lot to do with the magic system on Roshar. While being bound to honor may be cultural for Szeth, I think that there is some sort of connection with honor and his oathstone (Or perhaps something else?). I do still think he has the freedom to choose what he can and can't do. I'm going to have to reread the book (at least just the Szeth chapters) before I can really back up this comment though. Perhaps I'll discover that I'm wrong after I reread them. That is just my gut feeling, though. I also want to mention that I don't think he'll die if he breaks one of those rules (unless of course he kills himself...). I think that there is some other consequence. What is that consequence? No idea. Again, I hope to find something after I read those chapters again. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
11thorderknight Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 Given the text of Way of Kings, I don't see how there can be any possible doubt that Szeth is NOT actually bound in any way, other than his own will and crazyness. He basically tells us this himself. He also freely acknowledges that he personally bears the responsibility for everything he does; it's actually part of his punishment. That's exactly what makes him such an interesting character. If he were just some dude magically compelled to do what he does, it wouldn't be an interesting story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurkistan he/him Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 The implicit assumption is that Szeth made some choice that bound him to the stone, and so is responsible for what follows after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloom he/him Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 I'm in favor of Szeth having free will to do as he pleases. That being said, culture is a huge influence on how people act and react to different situations. Religion is also another huge influence on behavior. In Szeths case, both his culture and his religion require him to behave in a certain manner. For someone to break with cultural beliefs or religious beliefs is a tough thing to do. For someone to break with both cultural and religious beliefs, even when they recognize that those beliefs require them to do things they believe are wrong, is an extremely hard thing for a person to do. Szeth wouldn't know who he was without his culture and religion. His society is very close knit. They have few dealings with outsiders, and most of those dealings appear to be in controlled settings. Then we have outside forces to contend with. Szeths Shardblade is not ordinary even amongst Shardblades. Taravangian recognizes this. We have no idea if his blade is capable of influencing his behavior or not. Then we have Odium. I believe that Odium can influence a persons behavior when they feel hatred. If a person feels hatred often enough, then I believe that Odium would gain an even greater degree of influence over that person. Szeth is full of self loathing. He feels it constantly. So while I believe that Szeth is ultimately the keeper of his own destiny, and responsible for the actions he performs, I can't hate him for it. He is a victim of his own society and a pawn of the gods. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_warko he/him Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 I have always felt that Szeth is amongst, if not, the most honorable character(s) in SA, albeit in a non-traditional way. As stated by previous posters, he knows what he is doing and how it damns him, however, he is compelled by his religion and culture to act in this manner. At one point thought about how the alternative was oblivion (as opposed to an eternity of Heraldic time between desolations torture). As grim as that afterlife sounds, choosing to cease to exist (After your death) would require an incredible amount bravery or cowardice (depending on your viewpoint). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly he/him Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 He simply sees cessation of existence as a lower sort of hell than the one he's doomed to enter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 I am sure Alakavish was also honorable, just like Szeth is. Still, a honorable person can bring about the end of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
el_warko he/him Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 He simply sees cessation of existence as a lower sort of hell than the one he's doomed to enter. We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. With existance there is hope however slim, without existance hope does not exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
writelhd she/her Posted January 18, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 I hadn't really been inclined to believe he had free will, but you all do make some convincing points in favor. In particular I can see how self-loathing can really do a number on someone, and doing what Szeth does can be a real boost to self-loathing, so it's a particularly horrible downward spiral from there. Honestly it makes me think of these awful shootings in the real world, only worse because many of those people commit suicide in the midst of their intense self-loathing, and Szeth's not allowed to do that. Honorable? I guess I'd have to understand more about Shin ideals to really assess the honor here. He's saying this all this suffering that killing inflicts upon his own psyche is right, because it's what he deserves, yeah he sticks to whatever his culture told him to make him think he deserves this--but people are still dying. Kingdoms are still shattering. And in his own head he's turning their deaths into a pity party all about him. If that's honor, it's an incredibly selfish kind. But you're right, that does turn into more compelling storytelling than if he were just a slave to some magic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swimmingly he/him Posted January 18, 2014 Report Share Posted January 18, 2014 I hadn't really been inclined to believe he had free will, but you all do make some convincing points in favor. In particular I can see how self-loathing can really do a number on someone, and doing what Szeth does can be a real boost to self-loathing, so it's a particularly horrible downward spiral from there. Honestly it makes me think of these awful shootings in the real world, only worse because many of those people commit suicide in the midst of their intense self-loathing, and Szeth's not allowed to do that. Honorable? I guess I'd have to understand more about Shin ideals to really assess the honor here. He's saying this all this suffering that killing inflicts upon his own psyche is right, because it's what he deserves, yeah he sticks to whatever his culture told him to make him think he deserves this--but people are still dying. Kingdoms are still shattering. And in his own head he's turning their deaths into a pity party all about him. If that's honor, it's an incredibly selfish kind. But you're right, that does turn into more compelling storytelling than if he were just a slave to some magic. So Szeth is an extreme emo? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wonko the Sane he/him Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 I hadn't really been inclined to believe he had free will, but you all do make some convincing points in favor. In particular I can see how self-loathing can really do a number on someone, and doing what Szeth does can be a real boost to self-loathing, so it's a particularly horrible downward spiral from there. Honestly it makes me think of these awful shootings in the real world, only worse because many of those people commit suicide in the midst of their intense self-loathing, and Szeth's not allowed to do that. Honorable? I guess I'd have to understand more about Shin ideals to really assess the honor here. He's saying this all this suffering that killing inflicts upon his own psyche is right, because it's what he deserves, yeah he sticks to whatever his culture told him to make him think he deserves this--but people are still dying. Kingdoms are still shattering. And in his own head he's turning their deaths into a pity party all about him. If that's honor, it's an incredibly selfish kind. But you're right, that does turn into more compelling storytelling than if he were just a slave to some magic. Honor isn't about what's right or wrong. If I swear allegiance to an evil overlord, then later forswear my oath and join the side of good, I am still acting dishonorably. Honor is about keeping promises, about deciding the rules by which to live your life and then living by them. Szeth is absolutely the most honorable character; honorable even to a most egregious fault. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser he/him Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 There are many definitions of honor. While we don't know what Szeth did to become Truthless, I suspect it was quite honorable. Of necessity, I will ignore it in this discussion. Syl defines her role as an honorspren as including "nobility". I think she is referencing noble behavior rather than heredity. Wikipedia mentions "moral code of the society". By these definitions, swearing allegiance to an evil overlord, maintaining that allegiance and doing what knows is wrong are all dishonorable. Szeth's motivation being craven and selfish (to avoid annihilation and spend the afterlife in the rocks (paraphrased)) does not seem honorable either. Honor isn't about what's right or wrong. If I swear allegiance to an evil overlord, then later forswear my oath and join the side of good, I am still acting dishonorably. Honor is about keeping promises, about deciding the rules by which to live your life and then living by them. Szeth is absolutely the most honorable character; honorable even to a most egregious fault. Even by this reductionist, totally amoral definition of honor, Szeth is not honorable, as he believes that killing, walking on stone, using stormlight, etc are wrong and he is sinning, even as he does them. It is inherent in his punishment that he is honorless. He chooses, over and over, to do wrong, but that would be true no matter what he did. Denying his punishment and not walking on stone, using stormlight, killing, etc would also be wrong by Shin society. Truthless really translates to honorless. Per the code of Shin society, Szeth cannot be honorable. Failing that, we can look at whether he reaches for a more global code of right behavior. We see that he chooses to abide by his punishment and do wrong for an utterly selfish reason: to avoid annihilation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moogle Posted January 19, 2014 Report Share Posted January 19, 2014 Even by this reductionist, totally amoral definition of honor, Szeth is not honorable, as he believes that killing, walking on stone, using stormlight, etc are wrong and he is sinning, even as he does them. It is inherent in his punishment that he is honorless. He chooses, over and over, to do wrong, but that would be true no matter what he did. Denying his punishment and not walking on stone, using stormlight, killing, etc would also be wrong by Shin society. Truthless really translates to honorless. Just because he's doing 'wrong' by stepping on stone does not mean he is acting dishonorably. He's called Truthless, not Honorless. Acting immorally does not make one dishonorable. He's a sinner, but he still stands by his honor. Of course, honor is a vague and almost meaningless word, along the lines of 'right' and 'good'. It means different things to different people. There's no objective definition of honor, even in the Cosmere, just vague guidelines like 'doing your duty' and 'keeping your oaths'. People are required to interpret a Shard's Intent, after all. Szeth certainly is honorable under certain vague definitions, and he's also selfish. Szeth is interesting. I'm curious about when/if he's going to break free of his honor - probably just before Taravangian succeeds in his plans, so Szeth can ruin everything by killing him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adamantame he/him Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 So Szeth is an extreme emo? Plot Twist: Szeth is really Odium's Champion, and Odium is not a Shard of hatred, but the Shard of Emoes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew C Posted January 20, 2014 Report Share Posted January 20, 2014 (edited) Honor, Cultivated to an extreme at which it becomes vile and evil... How perfectly Odious. Edited January 20, 2014 by Andrew C 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts