natc Posted November 23, 2015 Report Share Posted November 23, 2015 And that's why I brought up moral grey area. You can still be honest in those situations. You'll be the biggest jerk ever of course, which is why nobody does it, but that's purely socially/morally grounded, and if everybody is used to it and does it back to you it is no longer truly a practical impact on societal functioning. If you can actually somehow create people whose minds work that way anyway. The problem of honesty lies more in the human factor than the social structure itself. For the record, I'm totally not fine today. The weather sucked . . . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charononus Posted November 23, 2015 Report Share Posted November 23, 2015 TLR was using a butt-ton of emotional allomancy on Vin when he questioned her. I don't remember exactly what it said, something about losing all hope, and that there was 'no point in lying'. note: You should probably multi-quote rather than double post. I actually tried to go back and edit it to one post as I didn't see the second post till afterward. Unfortunately I couldn't get the second quote into the edited post and have it look right. It wouldn't actually quote. So I tried...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copperkeep Posted December 22, 2015 Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 I disagree. Lots of social interactions fall apart without lies. How do you comfort the dying person without lies, that it's all going to be ok? How do you smooth something over by apologizing, when you view yourself to have not been in the wrong? This doesn't even get into small talk of "hi how are you?", "I'm fine and you?" I honestly don't find much value in dishonesty in any of these situations. I do understand how someone can see lies in this case as kinder and I don't mean to disrespect the opinion, but I also very strongly disagree. In the third example, you're avoiding discussing something you don't want to talk about or that you don't think the other person wants to talk about, and lying in the second example runs the gamut from being a way to avoid confrontation to just being a manipulative jerk, depending on context, so it's hard for me to see why you think it would be essential. I wouldn't say either is always wrong, either, but it seems like a huge stretch to me to say that being able to lie in order to avoid social interaction is necessary to keep social interaction from falling apart. And when it comes to really examining things like those you can probably get into conflicting definitions of what constitutes a lie and whether or not you should expect someone to know what you really mean in a given context- and that can be an awful mess. (In the case of "I'm fine, and you?" you might be assuming that the person who asked the question doesn't have any expectation or desire for your answer to be meaningful, as generic expressions of care might be turned by common use into essentially just a greeting- which may raise confusion or communication barriers when someone asks it and really *does* care, or want an honest answer.) In the first case, on the other hand, I would say that lying to someone who's dying is hideously cruel- but I imagine people have a wide range of different feelings about that, and it's hard to judge that on anything but an emotional, gut reaction if a specific answer for it isn't something you can extrapolate from your moral philosophy. -- Back on topic, I'm fascinated by the idea of Copper Compounding, and really want it to somehow involve getting more information. I love the compounding stunts for Copper and Zinc from the MAG (Stitched Memories letting you store multiple accounts of an event and compound those stored memories to remember actually being there, to reach the truth of the issue, and Zinc's Lateral Link letting you expend massive amounts of compounded charges of mental speed to spark brief bursts of something similar to Tattletale's power from the Web Serial Worm), and while I don't assume those to be reflective of how it "really" works, getting extra information just seems like the only explanation that makes much sense to me. Ideas like multiple copies of the same memory or permanence make some sense on a basic level, but I just doubt that Copper compounding is anything that underwhelming, especially with the tone Sanderson used when mentioning it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSC01 Posted December 22, 2015 Report Share Posted December 22, 2015 I just doubt that Copper compounding is anything that underwhelming, especially with the tone Sanderson used when mentioning it. I agree, which is why it drives me crazy that I can't get any traction with my magical AI theory. I really think it's the most interesting way for it to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaukan-son-Hasweth Posted December 24, 2015 Report Share Posted December 24, 2015 I have a theory that compunding copper makes you habe a vision of the moment when you got the stored information Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thermophile Posted December 24, 2015 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2015 I have a theory that compunding copper makes you habe a vision of the moment when you got the stored information That doesn't make a lot of sense, considering that the information that would be involved in such a vision was never stored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaukan-son-Hasweth Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 Why is everybody so sure that componding copper cant give your Information that has not been stored. Compounding gold gives you weight that was not stored. Electrum, atium and malatium give you Information of another time when burned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 First, I don't think you meant gold. Second, information is not like weight. It is specific. You may be able to get greater clarity in memories you have, but having memories that are not yours is another thing entirely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copperkeep Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 First, I don't think you meant gold. Second, information is not like weight. It is specific. You may be able to get greater clarity in memories you have, but having memories that are not yours is another thing entirely. Actually, yeah. If you compound gold enough to restore a severed limb, that's a lot of body mass. Regardless, does the idea of not being able to get more information out of a Coppermind because what it stores feels more "specific" actually make sense? Most other traits are more fungible, but is there really any reason to assume that affects the result when they're compounded? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shaukan-son-Hasweth Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 I'm sorry. I did mean iron. Although copperkeep(fitting name) made a good point. No matter whos right i bet brandon will make something awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 Well the difference is that you don't need to compound for that, you can tap a metalmind to become more than twice as heavy, you can't tap a coppermind to get one specific memory out with more information than it originally had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copperkeep Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 Well the difference is that you don't need to compound for that, you can tap a metalmind to become more than twice as heavy, you can't tap a coppermind to get one specific memory out with more information than it originally had. I'm afraid I don't see the distinction. The point of compounding is to get more out of Feruchemy than you put in. Why wouldn't that work for more specific attributes? When can you get health you didn't store, or wakefulness you didn't store, but not memories you didn't store? Of course, it does raise the very interesting question of exactly what new information would become available and how it would be presented. MAG's version by way of the Stitched Memories stunt is interesting- if you have two or more accounts of an event, you can compound both of those memories to experience a vision as if you had been there, and see to the truth of the matter. Still, as far as we know, that ability is just a placeholder. Aluminum compounders are similarly interesting to me. For a while I had wondered if a "method-acting" aluminum compounder, who does what Wayne does, could become his personas on a deeper level, perhaps even imitating someone closely enough to take their metal minds. That was before it began to sound like the Aluminum hack is so much easier than that, requiring only an aluminum Ferring or a full Feruchemist/hemalurgist with access to aluminum. Then there's the potential of Allomantic gold/Feruchemical aluminum... The MAG calls those Twinborn "Vessels." /tangent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 Hmm... Would a Twinborn A-Aluminum and F-(I don't know, gold?) have lower power levels? Like, say the Twinborn is tapping health, and burns aluminum. Does it drain the metalminds they are tapping? If so, I have some good names for those Twinborns. Featherweight, Senseless, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copperkeep Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 It would be interesting, but I doubt many people would be interested in trying it. Besides, unless you're a compounder, if you're a Twinborn aluminum gnat you probably just don't bother and stick to identifying yourself as a Ferring. It seems to me it would be a cruel thing to discover, that you're one of the legendary twinborn- but one or both of the powers are effectively useless to you. (Would society even bother testing for aluminum gnats, considering how valuable even small bits of aluminum are? It seems to me the only reason to bother testing, besides curiosity, was if you already knew you were an aluminum Ferring.) More importantly, if you can empty your own metalminds with Aluminum, that suggests you should be able to empty another's with Chromium. Can you imagine the horror of being a Keeper and meeting someone with the power to erase your Copperminds? Or just any Ferring, and finding someone who can destroy years of investment with a touch. (The MAG posits that you can do this with feruchemical Nicrosil, tapping large amounts of it to "overwrite" another's metalminds. I'm still not sure how much sense that makes.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 Aluminum apparently cleanses you from Investiture. Chromium... isn't as Cosmere-wide strange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copperkeep Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 Aluminum apparently cleanses you from Investiture. Chromium... isn't as Cosmere-wide strange. I wonder about that. For now I'm taking it as "does something weird in every magic system," instead of assuming it does something reasonably consistent among them. I still want to know what makes Aluminum strange in hemalurgy, though. Wasn't it an aluminum spike that gave Marsh the power to burn Duralumin? Or is that just from the MAG? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 Aluminum is very interesting. I am fascinated with it. Not in real life, though. Real life aluminum is pretty boring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Copperkeep Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 (edited) Aluminum is very interesting. I am fascinated with it. Not in real life, though. Real life aluminum is pretty boring.It has some interesting features. It rusts very quickly on contact with air and moisture, as I understand it, but when it does, the *way* it rusts makes it nearly impervious to the risk of forming any *more* rust. Just as an example.Edit: Disclaimer: I am not a real chemist. Edited December 25, 2015 by Copperkeep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaymyth Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 It has some interesting features. It rusts very quickly on contact with air and moisture, as I understand it, but when it does, the *way* it rusts makes it nearly impervious to the risk of forming any *more* rust. Just as an example. Edit: Disclaimer: I am not a real chemist. Correct. Aluminum is highly reactive, and creates a near-instant film of aluminum oxide on its surface that protects it from further corrosion. Incidentally, this aluminum oxide totally rubs off all over your fingers when you're working aluminum jump rings into chainmail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgedancer Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 Correct. Aluminum is highly reactive, and creates a near-instant film of aluminum oxide on its surface that protects it from further corrosion. Incidentally, this aluminum oxide totally rubs off all over your fingers when you're working aluminum jump rings into chainmail. It's kind of interesting that such a reactive metal ended up being the anti-Investure blockpoint. Huh, I wonder if the oxide would mess with the storing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaymyth Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 It's kind of interesting that such a reactive metal ended up being the anti-Investure blockpoint. Huh, I wonder if the oxide would mess with the storing. It also only barely qualifies as a metal on the periodic table. In fact, some scientists argue about whether it should be classified as one at all. So that might also have something to do with it. Aluminum is just plain neat. Oh, and did you know: on our world, the duralumin alloy was originally developed for building German zeppelins? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 It might be fun to ask Sanderson that just to watch him struggle with the chemistry of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgedancer Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 (edited) It also only barely qualifies as a metal on the periodic table. In fact, some scientists argue about whether it should be classified as one at all. So that might also have something to do with it. Aluminum is just plain neat. Oh, and did you know: on our world, the duralumin alloy was originally developed for building German zeppelins? It's immune to allomancy and interrupts other magics as well and yet it is not immune to being burned or stored in. When will the wonders of this maybe metal ever stop? I actually knew that one. Edited December 25, 2015 by Edgedancer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate Posted December 25, 2015 Report Share Posted December 25, 2015 If I ever go to Roshar, Sel, or anywhere in the Cosmere, I'm going covered in aluminum foil. It is the material that Nightblood's sheath is probably made of, as well as the practice sheaths of Shardblades. I'm more or less indestructible! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted December 26, 2015 Report Share Posted December 26, 2015 (edited) I'm afraid I don't see the distinction. The point of compounding is to get more out of Feruchemy than you put in. Why wouldn't that work for more specific attributes? When can you get health you didn't store, or wakefulness you didn't store, but not memories you didn't store? Of course, it does raise the very interesting question of exactly what new information would become available and how it would be presented. MAG's version by way of the Stitched Memories stunt is interesting- if you have two or more accounts of an event, you can compound both of those memories to experience a vision as if you had been there, and see to the truth of the matter. Still, as far as we know, that ability is just a placeholder. Aluminum compounders are similarly interesting to me. For a while I had wondered if a "method-acting" aluminum compounder, who does what Wayne does, could become his personas on a deeper level, perhaps even imitating someone closely enough to take their metal minds. That was before it began to sound like the Aluminum hack is so much easier than that, requiring only an aluminum Ferring or a full Feruchemist/hemalurgist with access to aluminum. Then there's the potential of Allomantic gold/Feruchemical aluminum... The MAG calls those Twinborn "Vessels." /tangent. .You don't get more health than you put in, you get more of the health that you did put in, the health that you did put in filters Preservations power so that it creates more of the same. If it were possible that more power= new information then Archivists could just tap their metalminds at a stronger rate to get new information. Compounding doesn't do anything that normal feruchemy couldn't do it just makes it easier. If Miles spent 20 years in a bed storing as much health as he could he could still survive gunshots explosions and a firing squad. The compounding just allowed him to do it faster. If I ever go to Roshar, Sel, or anywhere in the Cosmere, I'm going covered in aluminum foil. It is the material that Nightblood's sheath is probably made of, as well as the practice sheaths of Shardblades. I'm more or less indestructible! Well it'd be incredibly flimsy so either or both of those swords would probably cut it apart on the first hit still Edited December 26, 2015 by Voidus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.png.d41b1ca865930ccf5f63b08a839f908e.png){kind=logo}
Recommended Posts