DocHoliday he/him Posted December 25, 2013 Report Share Posted December 25, 2013 So I'm rereading WoK and I came across one of Shallon' s early POVs and she is taking about Jasnah Soul-casting the stone to smoke for Mr. T. Well she mentions that the Almighty has a second name that only Ardents s are supposed to speak. Elithanathile. One Who Transforms. What's more, she goes on to say that he created Roshar. WoB is that Tanavast came to Roshar with his humans. Yet Rosharans believe they must retake the TH; which they must have lost prior to the "creation" of Roshar. Why is there the belief that they must retake the TH when "God" cava can and had recreated a world for them to prosper on? Further more, why is Soul-casting believed to be the singular domain of Honor? Surge-binding(yes I know Transformation is a Surge) seems to be more along his lines. Battle Arts. I would attribute Transformation more top Cultivation, but Honor gets all the credit. Any ideas or thoughts? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shardlet he/him Posted December 25, 2013 Report Share Posted December 25, 2013 Further more, why is Soul-casting believed to be the singular domain of Honor? Surge-binding(yes I know Transformation is a Surge) seems to be more along his lines. Battle Arts. I would attribute Transformation more top Cultivation, but Honor gets all the credit. Any ideas or thoughts? I don't think that Vorinism is particularly cognizant of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium. I think (so far) that they only think in terms of 'the Almighty' to whom various aspects of Cultivation and Honor (and Odium?) are attributed to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colby Jack he/him Posted December 25, 2013 Report Share Posted December 25, 2013 The Chinese have a myth that the moon is populated by rabbits and beautiful women. Much to the disappointment of our astronauts, there were no such rabbits or woman when they got there. Just an endless desolate landscape. Now tell me, the Chinese are obviously a rational and clever bunch. Why do they used to believe such a stupid story?On the same breath, just because an entire culture believes that Honor created Roshar does not make it true. Perhaps some influential priest thought it would sound more impressive to say that their God created the world rather than came here with his followers like a refugee. A lot of time have passed since then. Real facts can easily be altered or lost in that time. Vorinism itself is suspected by this forum to be manipulated in a way by the Sunmaker to carry out a very specific agenda.What we do know is over four thousand years have passed between now and the last Desolation alone. Meanwhile, Buddhism is one of our world's oldest religion. If you take a modern Buddhist and transport him back in time to India or China, he would likely be stoned for heresy. Or think of the Trojan war, which happened roughly three thousand years ago. Obviously, a lot of things we know about it isn't true, such as the participation of the Greek Gods and Achilles himself, but there were a lot more. The Golden Apple, the Trojan Horse, whether the Greeks actually sent a thousand ships... Helen of Troy could very well be ugly for all we know. In fact, I think some scholars even question whether the Greeks actually won the Trojan War, that maybe it was just fan fiction on Homer's part.Now, if even we can't keep track of our own history, how could the Alethi do the same for events over four thousand years past? They aren't exactly known for their brains. I'm sure there are some truth here, but you should really take it with a grain of salt. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloom he/him Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 Well she mentions that the Almighty has a second name that only Ardents s are supposed to speak. Elithanathile. One Who Transforms. Perhaps this is Cultivations name. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cromptj he/him Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 If I remember correctly, Honour says that he was the Almighty directly to Dalinar in his visions. Also, when Vorinism says they have "lost" the TH, it could be their version of original sin, or when they take it back, it could their version of the second coming. We are assuming that they believe this to be literal. I am only using Christian examples because they are the only ones I know well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloom he/him Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 atheistcanuckThe Almighty's original name was Tanavast, yes/no? Brandon SandersonYes and no. The concept of the "Almighty" in Roshar has a lot of meanings, many of them wrong. This is probably one of my favorite quotes by Brandon. My interpretation reads "This is the mythos so far, but the mythos I've given you is incomplete or wrong, so don't expect me to stick to it." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
name_here Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 Well, Vorinism is monotheistic and three Shards were involved in events on Roshar, so it's obviously not fully accurate. Now, The Almighty seems to be primarily based on Honor, but with attributes and actions of the other Shards mixed in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocHoliday he/him Posted January 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 This is probably one of my favorite quotes by Brandon. My interpretation reads "This is the mythos so far, but the mythos I've given you is incomplete or wrong, so don't expect me to stick to it." WoR Lift Interlude leads us to believe Cultivation is not the Almighty. Granted, it's not fact yet. But as an aside I was on board with Shardlet idea that Cultivation+ Honor= Almighty God. I don't think that Vorinism is particularly cognizant of Honor, Cultivation, and Odium. I think (so far) that they only think in terms of 'the Almighty' to whom various aspects of Cultivation and Honor (and Odium?) are attributed to. Modern Vorinism, perhaps. I was thinking about posting a separate topic, but this thread is better. Continuing my grand reread before WoR is released, I came to the StarFalls vision again. Much attention has been paid to this chapter because of the inherent differences we see in the KR compared to modern Shardbearers. I would like to point out something seemingly minor: Taffa the wife. Following the fight between Dalinar, Taffa immediately exclaims: " Three Gods, Heb!" (emphasis her's) Taffa' s home is a rudimentary 1 room hovel with simplistic window shutters that are broken(how that holds up in a HS, IDK, windbreak in the crater or no), a table, some chairs, and a clay lantern. All this is to describe that this is a primitive time, and that Taffa is likely an uneducated, or under educated, serf of some sort. And she knows about the Shards. Something Jasnah, one of the foremost scholars of our time is unaware of. She is after all a practicing atheist, and as she is more than willing to revise her opinions, I feel if she did know she would be more than willing to "show and tell". I find it absolutely fascinating, and a touch sad that Roshar has degraded so. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gloom he/him Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 Thanks Doc, that's along the lines of what I was alluding to. The Vorins may believe that Elithanathile is a secret name for the Almighty now, but they may have once known that is was Cultivations name in the past. If they have forgotten about Cultivation, and have attributed her power to a completely separate and pagan power such as the Nightwatcher, they may not have any reason or means in which to correctly apply the name they have. This could result in them thinking that the name is some special secret name for the Almighty. I find this unlikely since we actually know that the self proclaimed Almighty is named Tanavast. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocHoliday he/him Posted January 5, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 It could also be a sort of cover-up by the Ardentia. They have a majority of the scholars, at least in Vorin land, I think. They use Soul-Casters which is based on the Surge Transformation and, for the sake of this discussion, a derivative of Cultivation(Nightwatcher)'s power. They had to learn how to Soulcast from SOMETHING, and if that were a text, some sort of mention of Elithanathile would be used in connotation to it. If the Ardents came across information that contradicts what they've been teaching for centuries/millennia they would be hesitant to release it to anyone. OR they would assimilate that information (we have RL examples of this) to reflect what they want people to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 The ardentia looks to me like the remains of one of the Transformation Orders of the Radiants. Envisagers probably remains of some other Order, Ghostbloods maybe another order. Darkness leads probably another Order. At the recreance, Windrunners gave their shards to the people of Feverstone Keep, so maybe one of the Orders with Transformation gave their soulcasters to the group that eventually made up the ardentia. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocHoliday he/him Posted January 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 The ardentia looks to me like the remains of one of the Transformation Orders of the Radiants. Envisagers probably remains of some other Order, Ghostbloods maybe another order. Darkness leads probably another Order. At the recreance, Windrunners gave their shards to the people of Feverstone Keep, so maybe one of the Orders with Transformation gave their soulcasters to the group that eventually made up the ardentia. Why would The KR have Soul-Casters? The fabriels used on modern Roshar were based on inherent KR abilities to use the Transformation Surge. All Jasnah needs is Stormlight, all the KR needed was Stormlight. However I do like this idea that the Heralds may have formed smaller cliques after disbanding. Darkness certainly has a posse, following the ideal of justice. Perhaps the others have had similar ideas. Upvote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marianmi Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 To "transfer" soulcasting to other KR. We see in one of the visions a KR using a Regrowth fabrial. Why would they not just use an Edgedancer? Since there was such a fabrial, I am sure there were also soulcasters in the times of the KR. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocHoliday he/him Posted January 8, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Hmm good point. Perhaps Regrowth is particularly difficult without a proper essence stone? If you've read the Lift Interlude (and/or Ym) you know what I'm getting at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Typhoeus Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 (edited) The ardentia looks to me like the remains of one of the Transformation Orders of the Radiants. Envisagers probably remains of some other Order, Ghostbloods maybe another order. Darkness leads probably another Order. At the recreance, Windrunners gave their shards to the people of Feverstone Keep, so maybe one of the Orders with Transformation gave their soulcasters to the group that eventually made up the ardentia. So I had the idea that maybe the Order that became the ardentia was the Elsecallers, creating some nice tension on BS's part between the atheist and the church Edited January 8, 2014 by Typhoeus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aoibheann she/her Posted January 8, 2014 Report Share Posted January 8, 2014 Oooooh Gloom! I like that idea Elithanathile = Cultivation. It ties together beautifully. I wonder if the restriction on saying the name was put in place during the Hierocracy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chlehrma Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 The Chinese have a myth that the moon is populated by rabbits and beautiful women. Much to the disappointment of our astronauts, there were no such rabbits or woman when they got there. Just an endless desolate landscape. Now tell me, the Chinese are obviously a rational and clever bunch. Why do they used to believe such a stupid story? How do we know that there were no bunnies and hotties running around on the moon? Those astronauts might have just faked the tapes so they did not have to share the hotness. Why else would they keep pushing for more trips to the same "desolate" rock? +1 cool info on Chinese mythology 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrono she/her Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 How do we know that there were no bunnies and hotties running around on the moon? Those astronauts might have just faked the tapes so they did not have to share the hotness. Why else would they keep pushing for more trips to the same "desolate" rock? +1 cool info on Chinese mythology It's all a giant conspiracy. The bunnies and hot women secretly live underground and send false data back to Earth to hide their existence. This sort of stuff has been going on since the Apollo Invasion. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isomere Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 we actually know that the self proclaimed Almighty is named Tanavast. Tanavast never calls himself the Almighty. He said the Rosharans called him that, but since they use the word wrong that doesn't mean much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Rooster he/him Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 (edited) If he had a God metal it'd be Elithanathilium! Edited January 10, 2014 by AG Rooster 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chlehrma Posted January 10, 2014 Report Share Posted January 10, 2014 If he had a God metal it's be Elithanathilium! LoL! +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DocHoliday he/him Posted January 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 27, 2014 "I promise by the Storms and the Almighty's 10th name itself. I will bring him back." Kaladin p. 625 The Almighty has 10 names evidently. Elithanathile is the name used by the Ardents, the group that possess Soul-Casters, representing the Transformation Surge. I'd like to propose that there is a name for the Almighty for each Surge. The thing I'm uncertain about is how this might apply to the KR accessing 2 Surges. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoser he/him Posted January 27, 2014 Report Share Posted January 27, 2014 Yes! If he had a God metal it'd be Elithanathilium! A god gem would be Elithanilite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sart he/him Posted January 27, 2014 Report Share Posted January 27, 2014 Did anyone else just realize that Elithanathile is a palindrome in the Alethi language? Since they consider keteks holy, it makes sense that their god's holy name would be read the same forwards and backwards. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuantumHarmonix he/him Posted January 27, 2014 Report Share Posted January 27, 2014 "I promise by the Storms and the Almighty's 10th name itself. I will bring him back." Kaladin p. 625 The Almighty has 10 names evidently. Elithanathile is the name used by the Ardents, the group that possess Soul-Casters, representing the Transformation Surge. I'd like to propose that there is a name for the Almighty for each Surge. The thing I'm uncertain about is how this might apply to the KR accessing 2 Surges. This kind of fits into an idea I have about the Heralds. I think Honor and Cultivation created 10 spren to bind with the Heralds and give them surgebinding powers. Then the 10 names of the Almighty would be the names of those 10 spren. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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