King's Twit he/him Posted December 24, 2015 Posted December 24, 2015 (edited) But saying investiture isn't magic just because it follows measurable rules is false. That is my point, when discussing fantasy you can't just turn magic into a dirty word. But then what do you define as magic? If someone went to the Era 1 Mistborn world and started zapping people with a taser or blasting people with a flamethrower, that would almost certainly be seen as magic. Yes, we can probably agree that, by some definitions, Investiture is magic, but in-universe it is just another type of energy which can be studied and understood like anything else. I'm also not disagreeing that Investiture is magic, especially when it is viewed from the perspective of the reader grounded in our reality, I'm trying to explain why natc was resistant to you saying that magic changes things. Edited December 24, 2015 by King's Twit
Ari he/him Posted December 27, 2015 Posted December 27, 2015 But then what do you define as magic? If someone went to the Era 1 Mistborn world and started zapping people with a taser or blasting people with a flamethrower, that would almost certainly be seen as magic. Yes, we can probably agree that, by some definitions, Investiture is magic, but in-universe it is just another type of energy which can be studied and understood like anything else. I'm also not disagreeing that Investiture is magic, especially when it is viewed from the perspective of the reader grounded in our reality, I'm trying to explain why natc was resistant to you saying that magic changes things. Brandon defines investiture as magic, so yeah, it's definitely magic. You're running into a difference of thought between "soft fantasy" or "mystical fantasy" as a subgenre (where magic is unexplained or unexplainable) and "hard fantasy" as a subgenre. (where magic follows rules that make it well-defined, perhaps even to the point where in-universe it would be understood scientifically) I'm gonna Arthur C. Clarke this debate and say that any sufficiently-defined magic is indistinguishable from science fiction. 1
Oversleep Posted December 27, 2015 Posted December 27, 2015 On the other hand, I like to distinguish Clarke 3rds Law Magic and True Magic. For example, the magic in "The Lord of Ice Garden" is basically ordering around a bunch of nanomachines with your thoughts - it definitely looks like magic, but take Naming from Earthsea or Kingkiller Chronicles (or any True Name magic) - ordering wind or fire or anything around is definitely magic and nobody could confuse it with supertechnology.In Cosmere, if something uses Investiture, then it's magic. No buts. (Or magitec, but definitely it isn't something which could be confused with sufficently advanced technology). Nobody who looks at Feruchemist, who touches a metal and one moment is moving in slow motion and in the other becomes a speedster, would say "Naaah, it could be some superadvanced technology". The same with drawing glowing symbols in the air with your fingers and then stuff happening. Or swallowing metals and then being able to use telekinesis or slow down time. Or inhaling some glowing gas which was contained in a gem (???) and then being able to reverse gravity.
Moogle Posted December 27, 2015 Posted December 27, 2015 In Cosmere, if something uses Investiture, then it's magic. No buts. (Or magitec, but definitely it isn't something which could be confused with sufficently advanced technology). Nobody who looks at Feruchemist, who touches a metal and one moment is moving in slow motion and in the other becomes a speedster, would say "Naaah, it could be some superadvanced technology". The same with drawing glowing symbols in the air with your fingers and then stuff happening. Or swallowing metals and then being able to use telekinesis or slow down time. Or inhaling some glowing gas which was contained in a gem (???) and then being able to reverse gravity. By the same logic, I could say "but touching a button and then having stuff happen is magic!". If I turn on a flashlight by pressing a button, I allow energy in the battery to head through an LED and produce light. If I'm an Elantrian and move my finger through the air, I allow energy in the Cognitive to pass through into the Physical and make light. The difference in the Cosmere is that it has two extra Realms. It's not the same as our universe, but in the Cosmere these Realms aren't "magic", they're fundamental parts of existence. So I guess my question is, what do you mean when you say "magic"? If it's stuff that couldn't happen in our universe, then sure, the Cosmere has magic, but I don't think anyone disagrees with that?
Stormgate he/him Posted December 27, 2015 Posted December 27, 2015 How about this: magic is science that not everyone can use.
Paragrin she/her Posted December 27, 2015 Posted December 27, 2015 But, fabrials... My definition of magic in hard fantasy is the natural laws not present in our universe. Not greatshells, not Elantrians, not even Investiture, necessarily - the laws present that allow Investiture to interact with the rest of the universe.
Oversleep Posted December 27, 2015 Posted December 27, 2015 By the same logic, I could say "but touching a button and then having stuff happen is magic!". If I turn on a flashlight by pressing a button, I allow energy in the battery to head through an LED and produce light. If I'm an Elantrian and move my finger through the air, I allow energy in the Cognitive to pass through into the Physical and make light. The difference in the Cosmere is that it has two extra Realms. It's not the same as our universe, but in the Cosmere these Realms aren't "magic", they're fundamental parts of existence. So I'm not really sure what you think "magic" is, exactly. If it's doing things that are impossible in our universe, then sure, it's magic... but that seems to be missing the point in universes wholly different than ours. Who said that magic cannot be a fundamental part of existence? I know there isn't any consistent definition of magic, but do you really think that drawing glowing symbols in the air and closing a circuit are really the same? Tell me how technology can power itself but draining things of color, be controlled by voice commands and animate anything. That's what I got problem with - how to explain why 3rd Clarke's Law sometimes doesn't work.
Moogle Posted December 27, 2015 Posted December 27, 2015 Who said that magic cannot be a fundamental part of existence? I know there isn't any consistent definition of magic, but do you really think that drawing glowing symbols in the air and closing a circuit are really the same? Tell me how technology can power itself but draining things of color, be controlled by voice commands and animate anything. The Cosmere obeys the laws of thermodynamics. With Awakening, color is not powering the creation, it's the Breath - which, if it's anything like Stormlight, acts as a power socket into the Spiritual Realm, which is where the energy is stored.So yes, I'd argue there's no difference between closing an electrical circuit and, for example opening a gateway to another Realm. It's all just moving energy around. To us it's strange, but in the Cosmere I don't see why they would treat electricity differently than Steelpushing. It's just how things work. Remember that they can make mistfabrials... And because thought is literally a fundamental part of the Cosmere, of course it makes sense that you can make voice controlled robots with Awakening. 1
Oversleep Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 So yes, I'd argue there's no difference between closing an electrical circuit and, for example opening a gateway to another Realm. It's all just moving energy around. To us it's strange, but in the Cosmere I don't see why they would treat electricity differently than Steelpushing. It's just how things work. Remember that they can make mistfabrials... Yeah, nobody would notice any difference between movement of electrons and using telekinesis. Or affecting other people's emotions. Which is powered by digesting a metal and power is directed by thoughts. And people sometimes see glowing lines pointing to the metals around and nobody sees them but the one burning the metal. Better yet, they are running around with metal spikes to steal fragments of their opponents' souls! Then they are driving them through their brains and are just fine. Easily confused with 'advanced technology'. I apologize for the sarcasm. As far as Cosmere is concerned, I'd say magic directly uses Investiture. 1
Moogle Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 Yeah, nobody would notice any difference between movement of electrons and using telekinesis. Or affecting other people's emotions. Which is powered by digesting a metal and power is directed by thoughts. And people sometimes see glowing lines pointing to the metals around and nobody sees them but the one burning the metal. Better yet, they are running around with metal spikes to steal fragments of their opponents' souls! Then they are driving them through their brains and are just fine. Easily confused with 'advanced technology'. Sure, electricity is not the same thing as altering the other Realms... but gravity is different from electricity, Stormlight in gems glowing, and Hemalurgy. The issue is... in the Cosmere, advanced technology can replicate everything in the books. Allomancy is not something restricted to the human body, it can be performed mechanically. Surgebinding does not require bonding a spren, it can be done through the use of fabrials. Just because it uses Investiture does not make it "special" in some regard. From the perspective of people inside the Cosmere, I don't see anything special about a heating fabrial running off of Investiture vs. an oil heater running off of electricity. As far as Cosmere is concerned, I'd say magic directly uses Investiture. A fair enough definition, though it's functionally the same as saying "anything that isn't present in our universe is magical". Which is fine, but again I don't think anyone disagrees. 1
iBambam Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 You both make very good points, and I like the comparison of electricity and the different realms. By using investiture you are essentially plugging into and drawing energy from the different realms. Now I agree this comparison doesn't necessarily work for all of the magic systems. But I also agree that in the Cosmere, what we consider magic, they can recreate scientifically, at least that's what we're being led to believe by the creation of fabrials and mistfabrials.
DreamEternal Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 A fair enough definition, though it's functionally the same as saying "anything that isn't present in our universe is magical". Which is fine, but again I don't think anyone disagrees. So what is wrong with calling it "magic"? Your previous posts made it sound like you thought it was a bad thing for some unexplained reason.
Moogle Posted December 28, 2015 Posted December 28, 2015 So what is wrong with calling it "magic"? Your previous posts made it sound like you thought it was a bad thing for some unexplained reason. I'm not trying to say that "magic" is a bad word or anything, I'm just saying that it's strange to me to call it that when in-world it's a scientific phenomenon like any other and permeates everything they do. Children inherit your sDNA, for example... this is "magic" by the definition brought up because it's not present in our world and the soul is made of Investiture. Just existing as a person and being capable of conscious thought in the Cosmere requires "magic". You said: Magic(why the "k"?) making bosons disappear is still magic doing it. And I kind of disagreed because of how magic in the Cosmere is a phenomenon like anything else, so just saying "magic did it" doesn't quite rub me right. In-world, that's not an explanation for why things happen. It's magic from our perspective, true, but if we just call it magic and leave it at that, we're missing out on a lot of rules which lead to some interesting theories. Again, calling it all magic is okay. That was just why I responded to Oversleep, trying to argue that the Cosmere's magic really is just another kind of technology from a certain point of view that I think is useful to take. 1
Oversleep Posted December 29, 2015 Posted December 29, 2015 I am sorry if somebody was offended by my previous post.If today, on Earth, some people gained ability to warp some kind of field to shape reality how they want, would it be magic or technology? Because that's what we're arguing here. Some people would say "that's a new discovery, but nothing supernatural" and some would say "superpowers/magic etc". I believe that's what the difference on our viewpoints is and it's kinda hard to convince the other side to yours.
Ari he/him Posted December 29, 2015 Posted December 29, 2015 On the other hand, I like to distinguish Clarke 3rds Law Magic and True Magic. For example, the magic in "The Lord of Ice Garden" is basically ordering around a bunch of nanomachines with your thoughts - it definitely looks like magic, but take Naming from Earthsea or Kingkiller Chronicles (or any True Name magic) - ordering wind or fire or anything around is definitely magic and nobody could confuse it with supertechnology. In Cosmere, if something uses Investiture, then it's magic. No buts. (Or magitec, but definitely it isn't something which could be confused with sufficently advanced technology). Nobody who looks at Feruchemist, who touches a metal and one moment is moving in slow motion and in the other becomes a speedster, would say "Naaah, it could be some superadvanced technology". The same with drawing glowing symbols in the air with your fingers and then stuff happening. Or swallowing metals and then being able to use telekinesis or slow down time. Or inhaling some glowing gas which was contained in a gem (???) and then being able to reverse gravity. Remember, Arthur C Clarke's quote refers to technology not understood by the user or the person who witnesses its use. It is a functional definition, not a technical definition. There is no functional difference between nanotechnology that recognises when you're "tapping your ironmind" that modulates a higgs field to "reduce your weight", and feruchemy which achieves the same thing through investiture, unless of course something causes the nanotechnology to malfunction, or something can affect the investiture that doesn't affect the nanotechnology. I have a story I'm writing where I play on this a lot, where there are AIs present and nanotechnology used that interacts with magic, and also magic present that has nothing to do with the nanotechnology. The people of course call all of it magic because they can't tell the difference, which is rather interesting to the AIs. Yeah, nobody would notice any difference between movement of electrons and using telekinesis. Or affecting other people's emotions. Which is powered by digesting a metal and power is directed by thoughts. And people sometimes see glowing lines pointing to the metals around and nobody sees them but the one burning the metal. Better yet, they are running around with metal spikes to steal fragments of their opponents' souls! Then they are driving them through their brains and are just fine. Easily confused with 'advanced technology'. I apologize for the sarcasm. As far as Cosmere is concerned, I'd say magic directly uses Investiture. Right. And if we discover a similar new force in our own universe in the future, I imagine we'll probably still call it science. When I read fantasy I generally view the word "magical" something like the application of the word "electrical." It's something that functions using an extra magical force, as opposed to the conventional ones we know.
Cam9ryn Stormblessed Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 This discussion reminds me of Alcatraz. Magic is technology that only some people can use, while technology anyone can use. 1
Oversleep Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 This discussion reminds me of Alcatraz. Magic is technology that only some people can use, while technology anyone can use. And then we got Nalthis where everyone is born with Breath and potentially everyone is an Awakener. How do we define magic if everyone is a mage?
Moogle Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 And then we got Nalthis where everyone is born with Breath and potentially everyone is an Awakener. How do we define magic if everyone is a mage? Or Hemalurgy, for that matter.
Stormgate he/him Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 Simple: Alcatraz technology is magic, they just don't want to admit it.
Cam9ryn Stormblessed Posted January 4, 2016 Posted January 4, 2016 That's part of what Alcatraz was trying to prove throughout the series, actually.
AerionBFII he/him Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 Can you store things while you sleep? Like because Brandon has been trolling us for years.. Hoid is old but he hasn't been "awake and alert" could he storing what he needs to keep functioning?
yurisses Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 As for Hoid's feruchemy... I'm partial to feruchemical luck + darts + cosmere maps.
Yata he/him Posted January 10, 2016 Posted January 10, 2016 Can you store things while you sleep? Like because Brandon has been trolling us for years.. Hoid is old but he hasn't been "awake and alert" could he storing what he needs to keep functioning? Sazed states that the only attribute you can store while you sleep is Wakefulness.
The Ninja Yodeler he/him Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 Magic(why the "k"?) making bosons disappear is still magic doing it. Why the "k"? Huh. Never really thought about it. It is wrong obviously, lol. Something from my childhood Ive never changed apparently. Which is weird, because I am kind of a stickler in terms of spelling. I dont agree with it still being magic. Its not in our universe, why would it have to be in the Cosmere?
DreamEternal Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 Why the "k"? Huh. Never really thought about it. It is wrong obviously, lol. Something from my childhood Ive never changed apparently. Which is weird, because I am kind of a stickler in terms of spelling. I dont agree with it still being magic. Its not in our universe, why would it have to be in the Cosmere? So there is no magic in the cosmere? Just because magic follows rules and is like an extra set of laws of physics does not mean it is not magic.
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