How Invested is Atium?

[Moogle]

Background
Vin is capable of Pulling on atium:
  And then Vin remembered the vial. The one she still carried—the one Kelsier had given her.
  Atium.
  She didn’t bother to grab it from the place she had tucked it at her waist. She burned steel, Pushing it out into the air in front of her. Then, she immediately burned iron and yanked on the bead of atium. The vial shattered, the bead heading back toward Vin. She caught it in her mouth, swallowing the lump and forcing it down.
 
Some objects are so filled with Investiture that they cannot have extra added (or it would just be really hard to do so):

Herowannabe ()
Can an infused Hemalurgy spike be affected by Allomancy—steel pushes and iron pulls? Or does the charge interfere with the Allomancy much like a persons body would?

Brandon Sanderson
Anything infused (regardless of the world or magic that infused it) is resistant to magic. So you'd have a lot of trouble pushing or pulling on a spike, unless you had access to a boost of some sort to overcome the resistance.

theofficetroll
So, Nightblade would be resistant to steelpushing? Good to know ;-)

Herowannabe
My friend and I asked him something like this at a book signing, but for some reason it never seemed to make it onto 17th Shard. We asked if a shardblade or Nightblood could be used as a hemalurgic spike (i.e.: two different investitures of magic). Brandon said that yes, in theory you could do that, but objects have a limit to how much investiture they can hold, and that it could be argued that things like Nightblood and Shardblades are already "full."
(source)

 

Outis
Will Allomancy affect Shardblades?

Brandon Sanderson
It cannot affect Shardblades.  Well, cannot is a strong term.  Things with innate Investiture are much more difficult to affect by any of the magics at all.  Which is why it's very hard for Szeth to bind people or lash people wearing Shardplate to the ceiling.  In the same way Allomancy wouldn't be able to push on it without some help.  Duralumin with a strong Push would probably do it.
(source)

 

Conclusion

It seems atium is less Invested than a Shardblade. This is backed up by the fact that atium can be used as a Hemalurgical spike, unlike(?) Nightblood/Shardblades, which are "full"(?).

 

Questions

But just how Invested is it, here? When you burn it, it provides the power for you from itself, so obviously there's some Investiture there. But it's not Invested enough for there to be trouble Pulling on it, so that's strange.

 

And why would atium, the Physical condensed essence of a Shard, not be "full" like Nightblood? What's going on there? Does something need to be Spiritually/Cognitively Invested (does that make sense? Hemalurgy steals soul-bits, so presumably that's Spiritual) too for it to be "full"?

 

I'd love to hear some thoughts on this.

[Guest]

I don't recall us seeing anyone else Push or Pull on Atium, so the ease with which she did it could just be due to a Vin-ism. Also, she did have a (small) Spike in her at the time, the presence of which may have helped her interact with Ruin's power.

 

Both of those are pretty thin, but it's all I've got ATM

[Maths he/him]

I don't recall us seeing anyone else Push or Pull on Atium, so the ease with which she did it could just be due to a Vin-ism.

Kelsier pulls on atium in the pits of hathsin to shatter the crystals

(or at least, he thinks he does).

 

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

it could also be the relative size of the bead of Atium to her Allomantic power that allows her to affect it. None of the metals are invested in and of themselves, they are gateways to the Investiture. 

 

God metals are supposed to be the physical form of the Shard for Scadrial, so you'd think it was 100% investiture. 

[Moogle]

it could also be the relative size of the bead of Atium to her Allomantic power that allows her to affect it. None of the metals are invested in and of themselves, they are gateways to the Investiture. 

 

God metals are supposed to be the physical form of the Shard for Scadrial, so you'd think it was 100% investiture. 

 

So you'd predict that Vin wouldn't be able to Push on a gigantic block of atium? Sounds like something to ask in a WoB...

 

I agree that you'd think it was 100% full Investiture, but the fact that spikes can be made of it sort of implies this is not the case, at least to me.

[Yata he/him]

I suppose that Atium/Lerasium are not "pure form of Ruin/Preservation Investiture". They contain an amount of Investiture but thay aren't "only solid investiture".

If I remember right, there is a WoB about the structure of the God Metals that say something like "The Atium is a metal with a normal physical structure, it has just an extra Spiritual Layer" (Not sure about the exact words).

[Guest]

Kelsier pulls on atium in the pits of hathsin to shatter the crystals

(or at least, he thinks he does).

I always interpreted that as him pulling on the crystals themselves... and as I've now said that, I realize how idiotic it was.

Normally at this point I'd just backspace and sit quietly, but I just realized something else because of it: after destroying the Pits by grabbing onto dozens (dozens of dozens?) of Atium beads (maybe?), Kelsier dosen't return to the lair with an Atium fortune, so where did those beads all go? Did they just fall to the bottom of the Pits and sit there? Could (did?) Marsh climb down and gather them up? Are they still waiting to be picked up?

[Jondesu he/him]

Kelsier pulls on atium in the pits of hathsin to shatter the crystals

(or at least, he thinks he does).

 

 

 

I always interpreted that as him pulling on the crystals themselves... and as I've now said that, I realize how idiotic it was.

Normally at this point I'd just backspace and sit quietly, but I just realized something else because of it: after destroying the Pits by grabbing onto dozens (dozens of dozens?) of Atium beads (maybe?), Kelsier dosen't return to the lair with an Atium fortune, so where did those beads all go? Did they just fall to the bottom of the Pits and sit there? Could (did?) Marsh climb down and gather them up? Are they still waiting to be picked up?

Using Allomancy around the geodes is what shatters them.  Kelsier just had to get close, then burn.  There weren't fully formed beads in most of the geodes yet either, it seemed.

 

“Kelsier nodded. “The crystals are why the Lord Ruler can’t just send down Allomancers to Pull out the atium geodes. Using Allomancy near the crystals makes them shatter—and it takes centuries for them to grow back.”

 

jW

[Guest]

Using Allomancy around the geodes is what shatters them. Kelsier just had to get close, then burn. There weren't fully formed beads in most of the geodes yet either, it seemed.

jW

He had to Pull, unless he was very close

Though the holes themselves probably didn’t have an atium geode in them, the crystals themselves gave off faint blue lines. They contained residual amounts of atium. Kelsier focused on one of the blue lines and Pulled lightly. His tin enhanced ears heard something shatter in the crack beneath him

[natc]

Or it could just be about as invested as aon-generated bread, i.e. not very much at all, and the method and investiture from which it is made is what causes the properties.

Isn't it said somewhere that technically everything is made of investiture to some extent, just in the form of matter/energy? Lift also can turn nutrition into stormlight, and gold feruchemists can regrow things seemingly out of nowhere, probably using the investiture being tapped.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn he/him]

So you'd predict that Vin wouldn't be able to Push on a gigantic block of atium? Sounds like something to ask in a WoB...

 

I agree that you'd think it was 100% full Investiture, but the fact that spikes can be made of it sort of implies this is not the case, at least to me.

 

It was a thought more than a belief I guess. If she did have a giant block of atium, her steel push would throw her backwards due to it's mass vs. hers since we know she can already push/pull on atium in general. 

 

What we don't know I guess is... is there a difference in trying to push/pull on invested metal vs. trying to push/pull on a non-metallic object? I.e. would a 100% invested metal item even have a blue line on which to push/pull? Is it more faint the more investiture is in the item? Faint for a metalmind, non-existent for Nightblood for example. Or do you still see the lines but just are unable to get anything to happen, even if you normally should be able to affect it. 

 

I guess I feel like there is a disconnect in allomancy with the different forms that the Shard's power takes (gas/liquid/solid) and Investiture. Per this WoB:

 

 

BRANDON SANDERSON (17 OCTOBER 2008)

The powers of Ruin and Preservation are Shards of Adonalsium, pieces of the power of creation itself. Allomancy, Hemalurgy, Feruchemy are manifestations of this power in mortal form, the ability to touch the powers of creation and use them. These metallic powers are how people's physical forms interpret the use of the Shard, though it's not the only possible way they could be interpreted or used. It's what the genetics and Realmatic interactions of Scadrial allow for, and has to do with the Spiritual, the Cognitive, and the Physical Realms.

Condensed 'essence' of these godly powers can act as super-fuel for Allomancy, Feruchemy, or really any of the powers. The form of that super fuel is important. In liquid form it's most potent, in gas form it's able to fuel Allomancy as if working as a metal. In physical form it is rigid and does one specific thing. In the case of atium, it allows sight into the future. In the case of concentrated Preservation, it gives one a permanent connection to the mists and the powers of creation. (I.e., it makes them an Allomancer.)

So when a person is burning metals, they aren't using Preservation's body as a fuel so to speak—though they are tapping into the powers of creation just slightly. When Vin burns the mists, however, she'd doing just that—using the essence of Preservation, the Shard of Adonalsium itself—to fuel Allomancy. Doing this, however, rips 'troughs' through her body. It's like forcing far too much pressure through a very small, fragile hose. That much power eventually vaporizes the corporeal host, which is acting as the block and forcing the power into a single type of conduit (Allomancy) and frees it to be more expansive.

 

it seems like the different forms have different levels of Investiture. I.e. Liquid can give you all the power of a Shard (from what we've seen it has to all concentrate in one place). Gas is like a wildcard metal that burns however your Intent is focused while you're accessing it, while Solid is only supposed to do one thing. Which doesn't make sense to me because just like Water is Water regardless of its state, Atium should be Atium. So liquid Atium in my mind should be the same as physical in terms at least of it's nature and level of investiture. It's fine if the result of that investiure is different depending on the states, but they should all be invested the same in my mind. 

[Voidus]

It was a thought more than a belief I guess. If she did have a giant block of atium, her steel push would throw her backwards due to it's mass vs. hers since we know she can already push/pull on atium in general. 

 

What we don't know I guess is... is there a difference in trying to push/pull on invested metal vs. trying to push/pull on a non-metallic object? I.e. would a 100% invested metal item even have a blue line on which to push/pull? Is it more faint the more investiture is in the item? Faint for a metalmind, non-existent for Nightblood for example. Or do you still see the lines but just are unable to get anything to happen, even if you normally should be able to affect it. 

 

I guess I feel like there is a disconnect in allomancy with the different forms that the Shard's power takes (gas/liquid/solid) and Investiture. Per this WoB:

 

it seems like the different forms have different levels of Investiture. I.e. Liquid can give you all the power of a Shard (from what we've seen it has to all concentrate in one place). Gas is like a wildcard metal that burns however your Intent is focused while you're accessing it, while Solid is only supposed to do one thing. Which doesn't make sense to me because just like Water is Water regardless of its state, Atium should be Atium. So liquid Atium in my mind should be the same as physical in terms at least of it's nature and level of investiture. It's fine if the result of that investiure is different depending on the states, but they should all be invested the same in my mind. 

I think there have been multiple references, (Particularly in SoS) that Invested metals had fainter lines and until Vin drew on the mists she didn't see a line to TLRs bracers IIRC.

[Yata he/him]

I think there have been multiple references, (Particularly in SoS) that Invested metals had fainter lines and until Vin drew on the mists she didn't see a line to TLRs bracers IIRC.

If I am not wrong. TLR's Braclet pierced his skin and this is why Vin can't push/pull at them without a supercharge

[Moogle]

It was a thought more than a belief I guess. If she did have a giant block of atium, her steel push would throw her backwards due to it's mass vs. hers since we know she can already push/pull on atium in general.

 

I'm sorry, my interpretation of you was that the absolute value of the size of the Investiture might matter - for example, ignoring weight, that more atium stuck together gives the newly created object more total Investiture, and thus will be more difficult to Push on (in the sense that you cannot generate as much force/the blue line is more faint).

 

It's an interesting thought. I sort of mistakenly just assume Investiture density is what matters all the time, but I shouldn't.

[Stormgate he/him]

Is the piece of atium that Vin swallows in that scene the one that was just coated in lead? If so, that explains that, as only aluminum and some alloys are allomantically inert. It wouldn't completely answer the question, but it's a big part of it.

[baby he/him]

Is the piece of atium that Vin swallows in that scene the one that was just coated in lead? If so, that explains that, as only aluminum and some alloys are allomantically inert. It wouldn't completely answer the question, but it's a big part of it.

She had that one large bead stored in TenSoo!n's shoulder, so probably not.

[Elbereth she/her]

Well, I see atium as fundamentally different from Nightblood, for instance. Nightblood is an object that people put a whole lot of Investiture into. Atium is the body of a Shard, expressed through metal. I would guess that it's not the same deal. Maybe the Investiture isn't as accesible or something? I don't know. They just seem very different to me.

[Yata he/him]

Well, I see atium as fundamentally different from Nightblood, for instance. Nightblood is an object that people put a whole lot of Investiture into. Atium is the body of a Shard, expressed through metal. I would guess that it's not the same deal. Maybe the Investiture isn't as accesible or something? I don't know. They just seem very different to me.

You say that there is the same difference between something like Nightblood and a sword with 1000 breath stored inside i suppose.

 

It may be, thanks to the recent tour, we know that the Investiture works in two different way. Kinetic Investiture and the other (i don't remember the name sorry). Maybe one of the type cause the full interference between Investiture and the other a very little Interference