Kandra-Blooded?

[EdroGrimshell]

So, new to the forums, but this question has been on my mind for some time now.

 

The kandra are able to manipulate and manifest bodies of their own, even creating their own using True Bodies. Additionally, it has been shown that hemalurgic constructs can breed and become something else, possibly even interbreeding, as shown by Koloss Blooded.

 

My thought is in regard to a Kandra having a child with a human. Mistwraiths can breed, since the origin of the species, in fact, and a Kandra can take a human form, so it is possible that they interbreed with humans. Now, while most would likely make themselves either infertile or be careful to use human DNA they've gathered for their human children, but what if one didn't, used their Kandra DNA rather than human?

 

That makes me think, Koloss Blooded have increased strength and heal a bit quicker, both traits of the Koloss, so, I imagine a Kandra Blooded might have some of the traits of a Kandra, only much diffused as the Koloss Blooded are, which lead to a very interesting array of possible abilities, ones that may even be represented diffusely across the population, such as one having one or two traits while another has a completely different one, from simply the ability to alter pigmentation to forming 'body pockets' all the way to partial regeneration.

 

Additionally, the Kandra were originally Feruchemists, meaning it's possible that they still have the gene, only it's suppressed, which could lead to a case of a child born to them being a full feruchemist if going back to being partially human restores the power, and could allow a feruchemist, a full feruchemist, with allomantic abilities as well.

 

This then extends to the Inquisitors, of whom only Marsh remains, although Brandon has said that it wouldn't increase the chance of allomancy in the children, he didn't say much about the possibility of other traits being passed along, such as the inquisitor's "metal vision" which doesn't seem to come from their hemalurgically granted allomancy so much as from the mutations granted by hemalurgy itself, much like a koloss's strength. Though this is another topic entirely, I feel it should at least be mentioned for completeness sake.

 

I realize these are all highly unlikely theories, but it's been on my mind and I've been curious as to how people who know the series would percieve the idea (since none of my friends have read the series).

 

Thoughts?

[Voidus]

Harmony had to alter the Koloss to allow them to breed true, unless he did the same for the Kandra I don't think they'd be able to breed with each other, let alone humans. Unlike Koloss Kandra were altered genetically even before they were stabbed with Hemalurgic spikes, they're an entirely separate species so I seriously doubt they could have any children with humans even if Harmony altered their genetics a bit.

On a side note, Brandon actually said that Inquisitors children would have a better chance of being Allomancers.
 

 

 

ZAS678 (REDDIT.COM)

You've said that Inquisitors could have children. Would those children have a better chance at being Allomancers compared to if they had the kids before they were Inquisitors?

BRANDON SANDERSON

Yes, but there also could be...complications.

[Corax]

Hi, and welcome. Have an upvote, because they're cool.

 

Voidus beat me to the punch, so yeah. What he said.

 

As for kandra, I was rolling this idea around today, myself. I don't think they'd be able to. The entire point of them being created was to remove them from being able to reproduce. The Lord Ruler had to remove them from the gene pool, and he did it in an admittedly really odd way. Nevertheless, it's possible that Harmony could have undone that, similarly to how he allowed koloss to have children naturally. That seems unlikely, though, given how kandra society seems to behave. 

 

All that being said, there are various ways to hack Investiture, and Hemalurgy is one of the best ways to do that.

[EdroGrimshell]

Except for the fact that a Kandra can:

1) Change their shape and bodily composition, allowing them to mimic humans and become them to a degree.

2) Mistwraiths, which Kandra are created from, can breed (even before Sazed became Harmony it was stated that they could breed and that new ones were made from these mistwraiths) meaning that technically so can the Kandra since they're simply cognizant mistwraiths.

3) MeHaan implied that a Kandra can mimic human DNA in Shadows of Self. Meaning their DNA has to at least be partially compatible. Possibly meaning an infertile hybrid but also possibly meaning that the Kandra can breed viably with humans.

 

Now, I agree it's probably not the case and very much out there in terms of theory, but it's an interesting thought nonetheless. I'd like to know what people think would happen if this was even possible as well as if they see the theory as possible at all. It's just such a curious topic and one that I have not seen come up in the past, even for the Q&A with Brandon, from what I'm aware of. But that kind of character just seems like it'd be so fun to see or speculate about.

Edited November 4, 2015 by EdroGrimshell

[Voidus]

Except for the fact that a Kandra can:

1) Change their shape and bodily composition, allowing them to mimic humans and become them to a degree.

2) Mistwraiths, which Kandra are created from, can breed (even before Sazed became Harmony it was stated that they could breed and that new ones were made from these mistwraiths) meaning that technically so can the Kandra since they're simply cognizant mistwraiths.

3) MeHaan implied that a Kandra can mimic human DNA in Shadows of Self. Meaning their DNA has to at least be partially compatible. Possibly meaning an infertile hybrid but also possibly meaning that the Kandra can breed viably with humans.

 

Now, I agree it's probably not the case and very much out there in terms of theory, but it's an interesting thought nonetheless. I'd like to know what people think would happen if this was even possible as well as if they see the theory as possible at all. It's just such a curious topic and one that I have not seen come up in the past, even for the Q&A with Brandon, from what I'm aware of. But that kind of character just seems like it'd be so fun to see or speculate about.

1) They have a fluid musculature, that's not the same as changing their genetics.

2) Humans, which Koloss and Inquisitors are created from can breed while Koloss couldn't until Harmony altered them.

3) I don't recall any such mention, but given that kandra-revealing liquid exists I'd be highly skeptical that they change much, maybe they could make it more similar but I'd highly doubt it would be similar enough to breed.

[EdroGrimshell]

And if they could? That's as much something I want to discuss as the likelyhood/possibility of it actually happening.

[Voidus]

And if they could? That's as much something I want to discuss as the likelyhood/possibility of it actually happening.

Well to start with if they could they'd lose the ability to change back, you can't have completely human genetics and still be able to alter your DNA and muscle structure, that's not an ability that humans have and given that Mistwraiths do the same thing it's clearly a genetic ability that exists outside of any spiritual alterations provided by Hemalurgy.

[EdroGrimshell]

Not what I meant. I meant if a Kandra could sire a Kandra-Blooded in the same way a Koloss can sire a Koloss-Blooded. What would they be capable of? What would mark them? Would they just be mistwraiths? Just Humans? How would the Hemalurgic traits of the Kandra affect the child? Would a Kandra with a Blessing of Potency give their child increased strength? Would one with a Blessing of Perception grant increased senses to their child?

 

I realize it's not plausible, likely impossible by all standards. And I know Brandon uses Hard Rules for his worlds. But I want to know what would happen if they could have have a half-kandra.

 

...It's a stupid idea and thought, but I'm known for having them all the time.

[Voidus]

Not what I meant. I meant if a Kandra could sire a Kandra-Blooded in the same way a Koloss can sire a Koloss-Blooded. What would they be capable of? What would mark them? Would they just be mistwraiths? Just Humans? How would the Hemalurgic traits of the Kandra affect the child? Would a Kandra with a Blessing of Potency give their child increased strength? Would one with a Blessing of Perception grant increased senses to their child?

 

I realize it's not plausible, likely impossible by all standards. And I know Brandon uses Hard Rules for his worlds. But I want to know what would happen if they could have have a half-kandra.

 

...It's a stupid idea and thought, but I'm known for having them all the time.

Well given the above quote about Inquisitors being more likely to have Allomancer children then I think it'd be a fair assumption that Kandra blessings would likewise be inherited. Do you mean a Kandra breeding with a human? Or a Kandra breeding with another Kandra?

If the former I imagine they'd be human, though probably one with some odd mental outlooks on the world, I don't know if they'd be smarter than most people (Since Kandra spikes grant sentience) or dumber since they're naturally part Mistwraith which aren't sentient.

If the latter I imagine it would just be a spike-less Kandra.

[Corax]

If it were possible, I'd say that the method by which they were able to regain their ability to reproduce would effect how their kids would turn out. If Harmony had a hand in it directly, I'd say the effect would be more like the koloss; a mostly humanish kid that could choose later to go full kandra. If, however, the ability to sexually reproduce was gained in some other way, that might differ. For instance, if a kandra went to Roshar and asked for that as a Boon of the Nightwatcher, I'd imagine the resultant children would be different from those of a kandra who somehow managed to spike-hack it. 

 

...That made more sense in my head, but does that make any sense?

Edited November 4, 2015 by Corax

[Yata he/him]

To me is impossible to breed a Kandra-Human hybrid. Harmony doesn't need to alterate them to allow to procreate. They does from 1000 years. And I remember that the mistwrath/kandra was made exactly to remove them from the genetic-pool.

The reason for Harmony to change the Koloss was to trasform a race that may develop only destroying other sentience races (humans) to an Indipendentan Race.

 

But if (and I don't think) a Kandra-Human was born (and survive to the birth of course). It will probably have nothing out of ordinary (maybe just something like eyes of different colors, or albinism) just condition that also a normal Human may have. About the Hemalurgy Heritage, it will probably works like if a Spiked Human had made a child with another human.

[Oversleep]

I think something along the lines of limited shapeshifting - halfkandra is bound to his skeleton and body, but may alter it a bit. Like changing his face, maybe some manipulation of the muscles, maybe they can even alter their bones so they could have additional joints, but generally that's it.

They cannot alter the bones, since even kandra cannot. Muscle manipulation is all they can do.

Edited November 28, 2015 by Oversleep

[Ookla the Absent]

This is a question I'd wondered, particularly when

SoS Spoiler

MeLaan said that when they transform, they are completely indistinguishable from a human, including bleeding, need to breathe/eat/drink... they seem to be temporary humans

[Rellar he/him]

Harmony had to alter the Koloss to allow them to breed true, unless he did the same for the Kandra I don't think they'd be able to breed with each other, let alone humans. Unlike Koloss Kandra were altered genetically even before they were stabbed with Hemalurgic spikes, they're an entirely separate species so I seriously doubt they could have any children with humans even if Harmony altered their genetics a bit.

On a side note, Brandon actually said that Inquisitors children would have a better chance of being Allomancers.

 

When I read allow of Law, I was so confused as to how a Koloss blood would even be possible until I read this.

[The Ninja Yodeler he/him]

When I read allow of Law, I was so confused as to how a Koloss blood would even be possible until I read this.

I didnt even know what a Koloss was, because I read AoL before any other Cosmere work. My only insight was from the pieces of news articles in the periodicles. Then I read Mistborn and was even more confused . I didnt understand a lot until I found 17th Shard.

[Full Metal Rithmatist]

When I read allow of Law, I was so confused as to how a Koloss blood would even be possible until I read this.

it says something about it in Shadows of self i think.

[Lindel he/him]

I think the concept of a Kandra-Blooded character is fun to play around with, regardless of how implausible it might be. It's a cool idea, and it seems to me this thread got a bit derailed. The primary purpose of the OP appears to be to start a discussion of the possibilities, not the probabilities. Rather than tearing the idea apart, why don't we suspend our disbelief and discuss what the ramifications might be if it were possible? What types of abilities would be cool, and how might these be combined with Allomancy or Feruchemy?

Some ideas off the top of my head:

-Connector Ferring or a Soother who can change his or her appearance subtly for excellent disguises

-Creating pockets of flesh in which to hide metalminds, vials, weapons.

-Kandra-Blood with limited regeneration who's also a Bloodmaker for quasi Gold Compounding.

-Compounding Bendalloy and somehow using Kandra-blooded abilities to rapidly increase muscle mass? Not sure if this one is remotely possible, but I'm trying to think of possible applications, and if I recall correctly, Kandra can consume flesh and assimilate it directly into their musculature. I suppose caloric energy isn't quite the same thing as, you know, actual meat, though...

Edited December 3, 2015 by Lindel

[Stormgate he/him]

On that note, it would be much harder to spot a kandra-blooded Ferring or Misting, because the metal could just constantly be inside of them.

[Lindel he/him]

True!

Shadows of Self spoilers:

Most of these tricks would also apply to a kandra using Bleeder's trick of accessing Feruchemeical and Allomantic abilities Hemalurgically.

 

They might be able to burn it without having to swallow it, depending on how burning metals elsewhere in your body works. We have a WoB that metal piercing your body can be burned, but I'm not sure how that would apply to metal embedded in these pockets of flesh. They could potentially keep flakes of metal stored in the lining of their stomach, allowing them to keep a large storage constantly at the ready. If that works, they'd be undetectable without Bronze and virtually never run out of metals.

 

EDIT: Would probably take a lot of practice to be that aware of the muscles in your stomach. You might end up vomiting the first few times, but hey, there are normal humans on Earth who can store large quantities of clean water in their stomachs and regurgitate it at will, so it's not really a stretch to assume a kandra-blooded human could learn to store their metals for later use.

Edited December 3, 2015 by Lindel

[Yata he/him]

Without thinking about the "probability" of a Kandra-blood human.
I don't think that this kind of bein has something of the Shapeshifting-power from his Kandra heritage. And I suppose that without a lucky shoot from the "Hemalurgyc-Heritage" this type of creature would be less mental capable than an average Human.

 

But if you like the Idea of mixing Allomancy or Feruchemy with Shapeshifting powers. This could be simply giving to a Kandra some Metallic Art's Power through Hemalurgy.

 

In this case I would add that a Kandra with Allomantic Copper would be Immune to Mind Control from whatever is not a Shard.

[DreamEternal]

I wouldn't say immune. Remember Vin could feel TLR's super soothing from very far while burning cooper and Kelsier couldn't until his final scene, when he was closer? Cooper can add some resistence, but that is it.

[EdroGrimshell]

Well, the idea I had for a Kandra Blooded was that they'd have very minor shapeshifting powers, but would be enhanced through gaining a hemalurgic blessing as a Kandra would (like a koloss blooded becoming a full koloss on being given their spikes). I don't think this would be as big a shift, but it'd enhance their ability to move and manipulate their overall musculature.

 

It's like...

When TenSoon made a disproportionate body for the bones he gained in Shadows of Self by exaggerating the musculature it could support in order to have more combat ability against Bleeder's hemalurgic creations.

 

It'd be more along the lines of making your muscles denser, increasing both defense and offensive ability, amplifying muscle groups for additional speed or strength, close wounds to stop bleeding (wouldn't remove the damage, just mitigate it somewhat), altering pigmentation to aid in disguises, change their voice, and the little "Flesh Pockets" mentioned before.

 

As they wouldn't be full-blood kandra, they wouldn't be able to take on new shapes entirely or the like, just alter their existing one somewhat. Even with the idea that Hemalurgic Blessings would enhance these powers they'd never be able to go as far as a full-blood kandra could.

 

Adding in Ferring or Misting abilities just adds to the fun.

[Yata he/him]

But the Ipotetical Kandra-Blood didn't gain any "new power" through the Spike, or at least nothing that an average human can't gain.
The Kandra themself don't gain "unique power" through Hemalurgy. They are only Sentience Mistwrath.

About the Copper Immunity, I know that Copper isn't a 100% defence. But also a simple Kandra (without any other defence) is a challenge to Vin (without Durallumin) to control. The Kandra is more hard to influence than a Koloss and to take a Koloss you have need of the level of power of a Lerasium-Mistborn (or many Allomancers).
To this "standard defense" add the "Copper defense" and you have a Kandra quite Immune to mind control (Unless you are a Shard or you use a little army of Allomancers).

Edited December 3, 2015 by Yata

[natc]

The kandra blessings are perfectly functional and grant abnormal levels of their traits.

They just happen to all be unspectacular human traits like strength and mental stability.

[Yata he/him]

The kandra blessings are perfectly functional and grant abnormal levels of their traits.

They just happen to all be unspectacular human traits like strength and mental stability.

Yeah I was simply speak about the Kandra-blood can't be designed using the Koloss-Blood mechanics.

With a Kandra-blood that "upgrade" his Shapeshifting ability using the Blessings.