Sarcasm Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 (edited) Multiple times throughout The Final Empire we see scenes of Kelsier killing people with no conscience whatsoever. There was even a scene where he was prepared to kill one of his own soldiers, Bilg, to make his point. I recall reading a WOB somewhere that Kelsier was a psychopath, but that doesn't necessarily justify his massacres. However, we witness many acts of Kelsier which would be considered heroic, namely Sacrificing himself to ignite the rebellion. So what is Kelsier? Hero or villain? Deurteragonist or Antihero? Edited October 23, 2015 by Sarcasm 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purelake Earthquake Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 Heroic sociopath, not a bad person, not the best role model. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmurfAquamarineBodies Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 In Mistborn TFE he was the best person for the job but if he had been born in Wax's time then he would be a villain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Purelake Earthquake Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 In Mistborn TFE he was the best person for the job but if he had been born in Wax's time then he would be a villain. There are many sequences of events where Kelsier could have been a villian, but even though I've seen this one used a lot, I don't actually think this would be the case. I think part of his sociopathy is due to enviornmental conditions. I don't think he would have gone all crazy murder rampage over government corruption and poverty, as opposed to terrible slave system led by an immortal tyrant. He might work against the goals of Wax and crew, but he wouldn't go to such drastic measures. Unless he just chilled in the Roughs and didn't realize about the state of the city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmurfAquamarineBodies Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 There are many sequences of events where Kelsier could have been a villian, but even though I've seen this one used a lot, I don't actually think this would be the case. I think part of his sociopathy is due to enviornmental conditions. I don't think he would have gone all crazy murder rampage over government corruption and poverty, as opposed to terrible slave system led by an immortal tyrant. He might work against the goals of Wax and crew, but he wouldn't go to such drastic measures. Unless he just chilled in the Roughs and didn't realize about the state of the city. He was a criminal before he was made a Mistborn, though I suppose you could argue that he was a criminal because that was his only real option. So if he was born in Wax's time he would have been a criminal and if he had killed someone which he probably would have eventually, then Wax would have to imprison him. I doubt Kelsier would submit to being imprisoned so they would have fought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 And herein lies the inherent flaw in the Skybreaker philosophy Your irredeemable murderer can become someone else's hero. It all really depends on perspective more than anything else. Even if done for selfish reasons, if someone wound up fighting for a cause others deem noble they'd still be a hero to them, no? Why Kell did it is somewhat irrelevant here. In the end, he committed the gravest crimes possible and was hailed and worshipped for it because the people saw it as necessary. Be it for good will, revenge, or the cash that he took on the job, he pulled it off. Condemned by the law yet exalted by the people, and who is the law usually meant to serve? No doubt he and Wax will come to blows if they met, but who would really be the hero then? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charononus Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 He's a hero, he's just a destination before journey hero. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 (edited) And herein lies the inherent flaw in the Skybreaker philosophy Your irredeemable murderer can become someone else's hero. It all really depends on perspective more than anything else. Even if done for selfish reasons, if someone wound up fighting for a cause others deem noble they'd still be a hero No, the reason one does something is as important as what is done when it comes to moral judgements of others. He may be considered a hero for those he helped, but in the end they are wrong. He was a dangerous force that was necessary for a much greater good. In the times he helped Vin thrust others and gave hope to the skaa or sacrificed himself he was a hero, and when he killed without compassion he was everything but. In the end, he was Kelsier, and he was needed by the people. That does not make him a good person, only a force channeled towards good means. Edited October 23, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle of the Forest Path Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 The first Mistborn trilogy is full of these hero/villain questions. 1. Alendi: He was on a heroic quest to defeat the deepness (=>hero), but what he would have ended up doing was free Ruin (=>villain). 2. Rashek, oh dear Lord (Ruler )! Rashek: He starts off murdering someone (=>villain), then does the selfish thing at the Well (=>villain), but that was actually the right thing to do in regards to Ruin (=>hero). He temporarily defeats the deepness (=>hero), but does it by turning the planet into a wasteland (=>villain), but he adapts everything to still be able to survive there (=>hero). He creates Koloss and Inquisitors (=>villain). Then he develops this gynormous god-complex couple with a glaring disregard for human life and dignity (=>villain), but it's all because he's trying to save them all from Ruin in the end (=>hero). He oppresses the Skaa for a thousand years and does some pretty nasty eugenics on the Terris (=>villain). On the other hand he creates the storage caverns to allow humanity to survive just that little bit longer in case he dies (=>hero). Oh, and he hides the Atium with the Kandra so Ruin can't find it (=>hero). All in all, pretty conflicted guy, ain't he? 3.Kelsier: At first he's a thief (=>villain) then he turns into a freedom fighter (=>hero). He's still a narcissistic sociopath who enjoys killing off any nobleman he can (=>villain), then he ends up saving Elend's life for Vin's sake (=>hero). And finally he allows himself to be killed for the good of the rebellion (=>hero). 4. Marsh: Leads the Skaa rebellion (=>hero) but quits because his sister-in-law gets carted off to the pits (=>self-pity). He gets back into the rebellion (=>hero), but mainly for revenge (=>villain?). Gets turned into a Steel Inquisitor and takes that opportunity to stab them all in the back (=>hero but smells like villain). Then he gets taken over by Ruin and proceeds on a murderous rampage (=>villain) which only gets interrupted by him removing Vin's Hemalurgic earring (=>hero), before proceeding to kill Elend (=>villain). Then there's a paradigm shift in the pantheon and now he's basically Harmony's errand boy (=>just plain sad). 5. Elend: Beheads Jastes Lekal for leading a Koloss horde to his city (=>hero) then goes and does the same thing at Fadrex (=>villain). But there are extenuating circumstances and he feels really, really sorry about it. There's more, but that's mostly just saying what a decent chap Elend actually is. 6. Vin: She kills TLR (=>hero), but maybe he was saving the world all along, so (=>villain). There's the whole slaughter of Cett's helpless troops with Zane (=>villain), which might not count since she was manipulated into doing that, even apart from the Ruin-induced schyzophrenia. Sets Ruin free (=>villain) and then does her best to stop him (=>hero). 7. Spook does some morally ambiguous things in HoA, but he does save a little girl from a burning building. 8. Breeze... soother... enough said. A big theme throughout the entire series is heroic people doing villainous things for the greater good... and jumping around on bits of metal. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voidus Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 I wouldn't call the actions of either setting Ruin free or keeping him imprisoned villainous or heroic, taking the power for yourself might be because you don't believe it will just solve the problem but it might also be selfish, which is not necessarily the same thing as being villainous. If someone were deliberately freeing Ruin that'd be villainous but since they thought it was just releasing the power to guide itself it's closer to heroic than anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landis963 Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 I believe the glib answer to the topic is "Yes." [/thread] 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kynedath Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 It really depends on the circumstances, but you can definitely see that he wants to do good. What that good is depends on your point of view. I personally believe that in his place, any person with as much experience and energy would have tried the same thing, especially if they went through the Pits of Hathsin. My only concern is Kell's enthusiasm to "eliminate" the nobility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Eyes_12 Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 In my opinion, he can be more easily construed as a hero than a villain. Killing yourself to save people is basically the ultimate sacrifice, so... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark_Eyes_12 Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 I apologize if my knowledge is somewhat limited, but I just started on this website, and I just started reading Sanderson. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spencer12347 Posted October 24, 2015 Report Share Posted October 24, 2015 I liked that Paalm was compared to the survivor and they said he wasn't a sociopath. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmurfAquamarineBodies Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 I liked that Paalm was compared to the survivor and they said he wasn't a sociopath. Yea. I laughed so hard when I read that. As a continuation of this discussion... We will assume that Kelsier can come back to life somehow ( possible or not is irrelevant ). Do you think he would be a hero or a villain? I personally think that he will come back as a villain. Not sure why just feels right to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DreamEternal Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 Yea. I laughed so hard when I read that. As a continuation of this discussion... We will assume that Kelsier can come back to life somehow ( possible or not is irrelevant ). Do you think he would be a hero or a villain? I personally think that he will come back as a villain. Not sure why just feels right to me. SoS spoilers Sazed implies something happened to Kelsier, and if the "mystery god" is Authonomy and Paalm and Miles were his agents, then it would make sense if he converted or corrupted old Kel somehow. Wich would be bad, since I hoped death would make him a little less bloodthirsty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charononus Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 SoS spoilers Sazed implies something happened to Kelsier, and if the "mystery god" is Authonomy and Paalm and Miles were his agents, then it would make sense if he converted or corrupted old Kel somehow. Wich would be bad, since I hoped death would make him a little less bloodthirsty. I hope you're wrong. I like morally grey heroes, they feel so much more real. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
natc Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 Well, he'd still be morally gray . . . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgedancer Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 Yea. I laughed so hard when I read that. As a continuation of this discussion... We will assume that Kelsier can come back to life somehow ( possible or not is irrelevant ). Do you think he would be a hero or a villain? I personally think that he will come back as a villain. Not sure why just feels right to me. Vin did have a positive impact on his life, so I think that Kelsier was much closer to being a hero when he died then he was at the beginning of the book. It would propably still be saver to keep him in the Roughs and away from Elendel, less nobels to kill there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmurfAquamarineBodies Posted October 25, 2015 Report Share Posted October 25, 2015 I was meaning more him coming back later. Much later than Wax's time. Because apparently Kelsier and Hoid dislike each other. So if Kelsier came back during the space opera... Hero or villain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarcasm Posted November 6, 2015 Author Report Share Posted November 6, 2015 Does anyone think that Kelsier's an antihero? Like a flawed hero? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormgate Posted November 6, 2015 Report Share Posted November 6, 2015 (edited) In SA, Hoid tells Kaladin that stories are meant to give us questions to think on, and this is one of those questions. Kelsier is, at some level, a sociopath or psychopath, and he ruthlessly kills nobles. However, he has a purpose behind it all, and saves Elend's life. Kelsier is not a good man or a bad man, he is trying to be a good one, though. That's not the question. The question is whether or not Kelsier is a hero, and at their core, a hero gives up everything he is for those he protects, and Kelsier provided Exibit A when he sacrificed himself. Why did he overthrow TLR's empire? For revenge certainly, but also for the skaa. Why did he save Elend? For Vin. That's it. Kelsier is a hero. Edited November 6, 2015 by Stormgate 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Slowswift Posted November 6, 2015 Report Share Posted November 6, 2015 (edited) Kelsier is not a good man or a bad man, he is trying to be a good one, though. Oh, so that's where Twelve ended up. Joking aside, completely agree with your post. Kelsier's definitely a hero. Edited November 6, 2015 by Slowswift 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killersquirrel59 Posted November 7, 2015 Report Share Posted November 7, 2015 The definition of hero or villain is entirely subjective. As his soldiers? Hero. Ask his believers? Hero. As his crew? Insane, but a hero. Now go ask the poor schmuck who pulled guard duty at Keep Venture the night of his Atium raid. Go ask Salmen Tekiel who he killed because of the political advantage of staging his body. And perhaps best of all, go ask Yomen, or any of the other true believer Obligators. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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