Why do harmony need spikes to talk to people anyway?

[king of nowhere]

Something I've never understood in the second trilogy.

During the time of preservation and ruin, the two shards used their powers to nullify each other, and therefore they could only manage to talk to people with whom they had some special relation, or the power of the other shard woul block them.

But now? Harmony is the only shard left. there's no one there to stop him. He has the power to move a planet in his orbit, or to alter the DNA of every living creature. Why does he need the earring to communicate with wax? Accepting that he can't read or talk into minds, can't he just create vibrations in the subject's eardrums to convey a voice, or something like that?

In the same note, why does he need the earring-spike to empower wax with some pewter allomancy with the mists? Can't he just use his power to make wax stronger at need without having to rely on an earring or the presence of the mists?

[Edgedancer]

I'm not exactly sure why Shards can't just speak into someone's mind but it seems that for all the power they have they are incredibly restricted in how they can actually use it, at least once they have ascended for a while. I mean a normal Shard can't even pull the change writing trick Ruin did in the original trilogy. So I guess unless there's a larger crack in the soul, such as one caused by Hemalurgic Spikes, Shards simply can't do telepathy.

[king of nowhere]

yeah, but my point is that harmony does not need telepathy. he can just make sounds audible only to a specific person in a variety of mundane ways and listen for a verbal answer.

[Edgedancer]

yeah, but my point is that harmony does not need telepathy. he can just make sounds audible only to a specific person in a variety of mundane ways and listen for a verbal answer.

Can he? I mean literally, can he? Because, I don't think we've ever seen a Shard do something like that.

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

We've not, yet, seen a shard actually communicate to someone outside of: 

1. Ruin: he needed a spike so far as we know, but he listened to audible responses
2. Harmony: he can hear via preservation's power and speak via spiked Ruin power
3. Honor: communicates in a dream/vision like state and he is now dead. 
4. Endowment: only speaks to those who have died and just prior to sending back a Splinter mixed with them...

I would be surprised if a Shard couldn't figure out how to verbally communicate, but it seems none of them really tries. 

[Voidus]

Because his Shards Intent prevents him from using his power like that, he did indeed give Spook the powers of a Mistborn straight after taking up Harmony but now that he's been influenced by the intents for a few centuries he's mostly paralyzed by them. It's the same reason he needs Wax at all rather than just incinerating Paalm off the face of the planet.

[king of nowhere]

still seem unsatisfying explanations to me.

why talking to someone telepatically does not violate the balance of ruin and conservation but mmaking sounds in the air does? harmony is already uusing a lot of power to make the elendel basin fertile (that requires constant replenishing of the nutrients in the terrain, which involves moving literally millions of tons of materials around),  so the idea that spending some millijouls to make some pressure waves in the air would be too big a use and clash against his limitations is not convincing.

Also ruin could modify written text easily despite preservation's attempts to stop him, so harmony could also communicate by making words appear on a piece of paper.

 

Yes, it seems that all shards are reluctant to communicate non-telepaticallly. I wonder if there is a reason.

[Voidus]

still seem unsatisfying explanations to me.

why talking to someone telepatically does not violate the balance of ruin and conservation but mmaking sounds in the air does? harmony is already uusing a lot of power to make the elendel basin fertile (that requires constant replenishing of the nutrients in the terrain, which involves moving literally millions of tons of materials around),  so the idea that spending some millijouls to make some pressure waves in the air would be too big a use and clash against his limitations is not convincing.

Also ruin could modify written text easily despite preservation's attempts to stop him, so harmony could also communicate by making words appear on a piece of paper.

 

Yes, it seems that all shards are reluctant to communicate non-telepaticallly. I wonder if there is a reason.

The same reason that talking to the same people didn't interrupt the balance when they were two separate Shards.

We don't know that he's performing any kind of upkeep on the basin at all, indeed since he's expressed his regret at making it so fertile it seems pretty logical to conclude that he's definitely not.

Ruin altered texts most of the time by messing with the heads of people making copies of them, which would fall under the same context as talking to them.

[Moogle]

I'm sure a Shard could, using their power, speak audibly. It is ridiculous to assert otherwise when they are capable of creating and moving planets. If nothing else, they could carefully move a mountain or something at the right frequency and generate sound waves approximating speech. Even TLR was capable of moving mountains.

 

Therefore the limitation must be one of Intent/desire for subtlety.

[Oudeis]

Can they? Sazed says that he knows he can move a planet, but not where to move it to make life habitable. Just because he can rub air molecules together, does not mean he automatically knows how to do so and simulate actual sounds that could be accurately interpreted. Maybe it takes more than three hundred years of rubbing air molecules together before you figure out EXACTLY how to do it and be understood.

 

Shadows of Self spoilers

 

All of which is moot; he can write anything he wants. Wax's broadsheets each morning could change the Letter from the Editor to the Letter from God. Is there a time we know of when he wants to talk to someone, but does not? He even says he can talk to Bleeder, but she just ignores him.

 

Also, remember Wax's conversation. It's not just words, it's not just speech; he gets a powerful, profound feeling from Harmony, at least once. I'm not sure we aren't selling Harmony's communication short by assuming it has no more depth of meaning that can be achieved with tone of voice.

[Voidus]

Can they? Sazed says that he knows he can move a planet, but not where to move it to make life habitable. Just because he can rub air molecules together, does not mean he automatically knows how to do so and simulate actual sounds that could be accurately interpreted. Maybe it takes more than three hundred years of rubbing air molecules together before you figure out EXACTLY how to do it and be understood.

 

Shadows of Self spoilers

 

All of which is moot; he can write anything he wants. Wax's broadsheets each morning could change the Letter from the Editor to the Letter from God. Is there a time we know of when he wants to talk to someone, but does not? He even says he can talk to Bleeder, but she just ignores him.

 

Also, remember Wax's conversation. It's not just words, it's not just speech; he gets a powerful, profound feeling from Harmony, at least once. I'm not sure we aren't selling Harmony's communication short by assuming it has no more depth of meaning that can be achieved with tone of voice.

That was when he'd had the power for a scant few seconds, he's had a few centuries to get used to it now, by the end of his use of the well (Which can't have taken that long) TLR was custom designing bacteria, pretty sure making noises is small potatoes compared to that.

[Oudeis]

That was when he'd had the power for a scant few seconds, he's had a few centuries to get used to it now, by the end of his use of the well (Which can't have taken that long) TLR was custom designing bacteria, pretty sure making noises is small potatoes compared to that.

 

Maybe it takes more than three hundred years of rubbing air molecules together before you figure out EXACTLY how to do it and be understood.

 

Already mentioned this. If you have personal experience either constructing soundwaves by hand or genetically modifying organisms by hand, please share it. Otherwise, the fact that you think one should be simpler than the other doesn't mean much.

[Voidus]

Already mentioned this. If you have personal experience either constructing soundwaves by hand or genetically modifying organisms by hand, please share it. Otherwise, the fact that you think one should be simpler than the other doesn't mean much.

Both kind of, pretty basic physics for the former and my area of study for the latter.

[king of nowhere]

Both kind of, pretty basic physics for the former and my area of study for the latter.

what do i see, a fellow biochemist or molecular biologist there?

 

but anyway, making sounds is so much easier than manipulating dna. we figured out the making of sounds over a century ago, bby scratching a disc so that a needle running over it would make the right sounds. we are still struggling to understand genetics today.

i can undderstand that moving a planet in the right place in orbit is difficult - there are so many feedback mechanism altering the climate, like ice melting and reflecting less sunlight, or rain patterns changing and ultimately modifiying the local albedo - and so i can accept a shard may not be able to do it accurately. but sounds?

also, there are only a handful of planets in a star system to try to use as an example for how orbital placement affects climate, but there are millions of people speaking all the time. studying them and learning to do the same should be easy.

 

otherwise, there is still the option of written messages. we know ruin could alter written texts, so if nothing else that kind of communication should work easily.

[Elbereth]

still seem unsatisfying explanations to me.

harmony is already uusing a lot of power to make the elendel basin fertile (that requires constant replenishing of the nutrients in the terrain, which involves moving literally millions of tons of materials around),  so the idea that spending some millijouls to make some pressure waves in the air would be too big a use and clash against his limitations is not convincing.

My understanding (which, as far as I know, is not backed up by WoB) was that Harmony can fertilize the Elendel Basin and keep balance by taking the nutrients from an equally large area surrounding the Basin (i.e. the Roughs). That doesn't really answer why Harmony couldn't just make opposite sounds (or something) somewhere else, but it explains how Harmony can keep it fertile and stay true to his Intent.

Also, maybe Shards don't communicate through speech for the same reason they don't manifest for the most part: they live in the Spiritual Realm. Maybe it's difficult for them to influence the Physical Realm, except through their Intent. Ruin could change words because he was Ruining the document, and the heroes' chances of stopping him. Harmony might only be able to change words if they ruin something, or alternativly only if they keep balance.

I don't know.

[Voidus]

what do i see, a fellow biochemist or molecular biologist there?

 

but anyway, making sounds is so much easier than manipulating dna. we figured out the making of sounds over a century ago, bby scratching a disc so that a needle running over it would make the right sounds. we are still struggling to understand genetics today.

i can undderstand that moving a planet in the right place in orbit is difficult - there are so many feedback mechanism altering the climate, like ice melting and reflecting less sunlight, or rain patterns changing and ultimately modifiying the local albedo - and so i can accept a shard may not be able to do it accurately. but sounds?

also, there are only a handful of planets in a star system to try to use as an example for how orbital placement affects climate, but there are millions of people speaking all the time. studying them and learning to do the same should be easy.

 

otherwise, there is still the option of written messages. we know ruin could alter written texts, so if nothing else that kind of communication should work easily.

The latter yeah, although not officially until I get a doctorate

Yeah, manipulating sound is something you can cover in first year physics, manipulating DNA takes an entire degree and even then you generally only know a very limited number of its applications. Ask even the most advanced molecular biologists and geneticists on the planet how to make a bacteria that eats ash and an awful lot of them would draw a blank.

[AerionBFII]

Its a shame they cant speak through a bluetooth headset instead of impaling themselves with metal but maybe its more of a direct connection..

[Cadmium]

Its a shame they cant speak through a bluetooth headset instead of impaling themselves with metal but maybe its more of a direct connection..

A bluetooth headset doesn't pierce the spiritweb, linking the individual's soul directly to both Preservation AND Ruin.

Yes, you can deliver a current through near-field charging... but isn't a soldered lead with a conductive metal wire far more efficient?

[Voidus]

A bluetooth headset doesn't pierce the spirit

Clearly you've never used a bluetooth headseat, damned things dig into your ear and are so annoying it's impossible to think they do anything but pierce right through your soul.

[Stormgate]

In any case, requiring the use of spikes gives his subjects the choice whether or not to speak to Harmony, filling the role of being more or less balance incarnate.