surge v. surge

[Oudeis]

Yeah I basically started this post wondering at this one specific conflict, but I thought i'd leave the name open in case someone wanted to contrast, I dunno, division with surface tension, not that we know what those are yet.

[hoser]

Investiture interferes w/other investiture.  For a Windrunner to lash an edgedancer, they would have to touch the edgedancer, the edgedancer would have to be in contact with the desired surface and the edgedancer couldn't be invested. 

So I see surgebinder conflicts as tending toward inconclusive, as investiture conflicts will become unpredictable.  Effects like what Szeth tries to do with the knife that he sends toward the king of Jah Keved at multiples of normal gravitational acceleration will be more effective than direct actions. 

The net effect will allow Brandon to tell the stories he wants, rather than predictable wargame outcomes. 

[Swimmingly]

The physics of it aren't really going to make a whole lot of sense in any case.  The vacuum idea (though functionally the same as increased pressure in terms of the bonding action) seems the most reasonable explanation.  That being the case, you would have a pressure differential causing resulting in ambient air pressure enacting the applied force.  A vaccum has no effect unless coupled with a pressure differential (i.e., one is not sucked into space but is instead bown into space). The biggest problem I have with the vacuum idea is that you can't get more empty than empty.  So, compounding lashings beyond actual vacuum would be ineffective.  I also have doubts as to capability of ambient atospheric pressure being able to apply sufficient force.

 

The key take away is that rock A is bonded to rock B by the force of the lashing.  The force applied by the lashing is independent of rock A's position relative to rock B.

But we haven't seen any cases of compounded Full Lashings. And if you have tiny cells of vacuum, then all compounding would do would increase the number of cells, or possibly reinforce the Stormlight maintaining the vacuum. Think of it like tiny bubbles in between the Lashed objects. Stormlight maintains the integrity of the bubble walls, but applying sufficient pressure will break them. The point at which they break, however, seems to be obscenely high.

[Oudeis]

Investiture interferes w/other investiture.  For a Windrunner to lash an edgedancer, they would have to touch the edgedancer, the edgedancer would have to be in contact with the desired surface and the edgedancer couldn't be invested. 

 

I don't think it's ever worked that way in the book. If it were the case, Breeze wouldn't be able to Soothe Ham when he's burning Pewter; in fact, all metals would make you immune to emotional allomancy.

 

I think you have a certain degree of point... It does seem you can take in more Stormlight than a modern Scadrian Thug can burn pewter, so it's possible that if Lift, for example, was super awesome she could resist some forms of interference... but I don't think that extends outside of her own skin. Kaladin would have to touch the floor, use Stormlight to "paint" it with a Full Lashing, and then somehow get Lift to touch it; she'd be stuck like glue. Since the Full Lashing isn't doing anything to her... well, insides, I'm not so sure her Stormlight would protect her in that instance.

 

There's another question. If I understand how glue works, Lift should be able to Slick her way out of that, yes?

[Kurkistan]

Investiture interferes w/ other investiture. For a Windrunner to lash an edgedancer, they would have to touch the edgedancer, the edgedancer would have to be in contact with the desired surface and the edgedancer couldn't be invested. the knife that he sends toward the king of Jah Keved at multiples of normal gravitational acceleration will be more effective than direct actions.

I think you might be starting off with an incorrect premise here, hoser.

I don't think it fair to assume that someone holding stormlight is immune to other Investiture. Szeth can Lash himself after all.

 

*Mistborn Spoilers*

That could be a special case, though, since he's acting on himself. Instead, let's look to the dozens of hapless soldiers he's Lashed in the past. We know that the "base" Investiture held by all humans is enough to ward off Allomantic iron/Allomantic steel, yet the Investiture of these victims is of zero benefit to them for Szeth's Lashings. I'd wager, then, that a person's Investiture is only helpful to them in warding off "internal" alterations, not the surface-level ones of their interactions with other things/forces.

Shardplate, under this model, is immune to Szeth's Lashings because that stuff is made of Investiture, for all intents and purposes.

I don't think, then, that simply holding a chip's worth of stormlight will suddenly make a Surgebinders immune to the Lashings. Maybe if they hold a substantial amount, and maybe it gets harder as they hold more and more stormlight, but not simply as an on/off.

Alternatively, no amount of stormlight will ever help a Surgebinder be immune to a Full Lashing. I, myself, doubt that Szeth's own Lashings are somehow "special" to him: he doesn't control or interact with them after their initial creation. That suggests no immunity for any Surgebinder ever, and so it would seem that the extra Investiture from stormlight is wholly "internal" to it's holder. So it might be harder for TLR to stomach-Push you, but not for Szeth's to Lash you.

This also reserves a more important role for Plate, since a KR would have an interest in not being affected by hostile Surgebinding.

EDIT: NINJA!

As to glue: So far as I know, glue works by actually creating new chemical bonds, so it's a bit more involved than simple friction.

Edited December 2, 2013 by Ookla the Inveterate

[Gloom]

I would think that the friction surge would allow an increase and decrease in friction, just as I would think that the pressure surge would allow one to increase or decrease the amount of pressure. So yes, I think Lift should be able to walk on walls, just a s I believe Kaladin should be able to create a shockwave of pressure as easily as he creates a pressure vacuum.

[Oudeis]

EDIT: NINJA!

 

OMG I THINK THIS IS MY FIRST NINJA EVER! w00t. I'm gonna go out and kick a pirate in the shin now...

[Satsuoni]

It is like some people don't read my posts (gripe, gripe), or maybe I am just not clear

Let us see. Holding something with jets of water is not the same as creating vacuum cells or increasing static pressure. If the pressure is applied equally from all directions, the object would experience compression, but, since the force would be negated by opposing force, it would not in any way stop an object from moving. Case in point : deepwater fish. The pressure, roughly equal (plus buoyance, which is relatively minor in this case) presses the fish from all directions and is tremendous, but the fish moves just fine - the water resistance is the same.

Next example: a "sucker" (ok, I don't know the proper word) stuck on a smooth surface, like glass. It has vacuum below it, holding it in place - yet one can slide it on the surface relatively easily, while moving it away from the surface is nearly impossible. (Sliding around case in edit of my first post)

Now jets of water is a different beast altogether - as described in my second post, they imply moving water, not static system, and the water (or air) has to move somewhere, in this case, below the object, like holding it in place by working vacuum cleaner. That way, any shift in the object position would change the system dynamics, adjusting pressure in a way that would push the object back - the pressure is not constant. This should allow the object to rotate freely if the friction is reduced, but not move.

Kurk: friction also partially works by creating temporary bonds, at least for relatively smooth surfaces, though not in quite that way. Adhesive also fills the small pores on the surface before hardening, though, so it would be like trying to slide off thousands of tiny hooks all going in different directions...

Vacuum idea is, indeed the simplest one, and I think it is what Brandon used as a base. One may be able to strengthen it in the same way normal lashing strengthens gravity - by simultaneously increasing the effect pressure has on the object (whole object, not the crushing part)

[hoser]

I think you might be starting off with an incorrect premise here, hoser.

I don't think it fair to assume that someone holding stormlight is immune to other Investiture. Szeth can Lash himself after all.

That could be a special case, though, since he's acting on himself. Instead, let's look to the dozens of hapless soldiers he's Lashed in the past. We know that the "base" Investiture held by all humans is enough to ward off Allomantic iron/Allomantic steel, yet the Investiture of these victims is of zero benefit to them for Szeth's Lashings. I'd wager, then, that a person's Investiture is only helpful to them in warding off "internal" alterations, not the surface-level ones of their interactions with other things/forces.

Shardplate, under this model, is immune to Szeth's Lashings because that stuff is made of Investiture, for all intents and purposes.

I don't think, then, that simply holding a chip's worth of stormlight will suddenly make a Surgebinders immune to the Lashings. Maybe if they hold a substantial amount, and maybe it gets harder as they hold more and more stormlight, but not simply as an on/off.

Alternatively, no amount of stormlight will ever help a Surgebinder be immune to a Full Lashing. I, myself, doubt that Szeth's own Lashings are somehow "special" to him: he doesn't control or interact with them after their initial creation. That suggests no immunity for any Surgebinder ever, and so it would seem that the extra Investiture from stormlight is wholly "internal" to it's holder. So it might be harder for TLR to stomach-Push you, but not for Szeth's to Lash you.

This also reserves a more important role for Plate, since a KR would have an interest in not being affected by hostile Surgebinding.

Did I say immune?  I said interfere, IIRC.  And I meant investiture beyond the base human/creature investiture.  I think that is why Shardplate can block Shardblades.  I also think the interference will be subject to great differences in investiture 

mistborn spoiler

as on Scadrial (or whatever the mistborn planet is)

. 

I agree that one's own investiture doesn't interfere, but that was not the scenario being discussed. 

 

The question is whether an invested surgebinder has some level of resistance to direct surgebinding of another surgebinder.  There are three cases based on distance: not touching, surface and internal. 

1. We haven't discussed whether there is resistance to non-contact surgebinding. 
2. You claim that a surgebinder should have no resistance to surface applied surgebinding.
3. It seems that we agree that a surgebinder has some level of resistance to internal effects of others' surgebinding.

Your model, Ookla, if I understand it correctly, is interesting, and I can't disprove it.  I would prefer a system where surgebinders have some resistance to each others' effects at any range.  I prefer that partly because of my internal Occam, but mostly because if Jasnah can autokill other surgebinders like she did the thieves, I think it would be lame.  I want a system where if Kaladin keeps some stormlight going, he will be able to react to surgebinder ambushes. 

 

There is evidence by analogy that suggests I'm wrong.

Elantris spoiler

The elantrians were able to directly damage invested Dakhor monks with Aons from a distance.

Edited December 2, 2013 by hoser

[Satsuoni]

I think it is, in some way, a problem of concentration. Like a surgebinder full of Stormlight isn't immune to Shardblade, so he isn't immune to Lashings. Possibly, the amount of Stormlight necessary for a resistance strong enough to matter would rip the body apart long before.

[Oudeis]

Elantris spoiler.

 

There is a Dakhor bone that resists AonDor.

 

Mistborn spoiler.

 

Any human's innate investiture will resist steelpushes and ironpulls, yet can be overcome with (it seems) a sheer overwhelming power. Emotional allomancy works on anyone, yet not on someone burning copper. Certain aluminum alloys are likewise immune to ironpulls and steelpushes.

 

Conclusion: it's not simply a matter of any Investiture will negate any other Investiture. It seems some systems of Investiture work in specific opposition. And that even when they do, sheer raw power can overcome the obstacle.

 

Also not sure I agree with the idea that Shardplate can block Shardblades simply by virtue of being Investiture. If that were the case they wouldn't be able to cut a big enough fabrial, either. Shardblades work so interestingly with so many different things known about them, I feel we don't truly understand their underlying logic yet enough to make any decisive decisions.

[Kurkistan]

@hoser

 

You are right, you did say "interfere". It makes little difference to the analysis, though, I think.

 

My main goal here is mainly to challenge a base assumption of interference, so I suppose I got that part right.

 

As to Jasnah insta-killing: That might well fall under the "internal change" category, since it's not just messing with a "spiritual gravitational bond", but with a person's fundamental identity.

 

Also, we're all Ookla just now, so that isn't the best name to pick me out by.

 

@Darnam

 

A fair point on the nature of Plate.

[hoser]

@Ookla

I am trying to understand the nature of our disagreement.  A setup like the one in Mistborn described by Ookla provides various ways for invested Radiants to have some resistance to invested attacks.  The difference between interference and immunity seems significant to me. 

 

In one post you posit that the difference in attacks is in the method of administration (no resistance to touch attack), whereas in the other you suggest that the effect of the attack is significant (Transformation's effect is internal).  I guess your system then is dependent upon both method of application and effect. 

 

It seems that we agree that surgebinders should be able to have some resistance to Jasnah autokills.  Would an invested Kaladin have some ability to resist surprise attacks from other surgebinders?  I am not clear that we really disagree, as we may believe that the magic system should work similarly in all real cases (albeit maybe for different reasons). 

 

I believe that Shardplate's ability to resist Shardblades is based on both it's investiture and it's nature.

 

As for the Ookla thing, I am all for honoring people and having in-jokes.  The evil part of me also enjoys counting coup on people by getting them to complain about me using the name they have chosen.  Please forgive me.  

[Kurkistan]

@Ookla

I am trying to understand the nature of our disagreement.  A setup like the one in Mistborn described by Ookla provides various ways for invested Radiants to have some resistance to invested attacks.  The difference between interference and immunity seems significant to me.

 

I suppose the rub is that I see the two as different only in degree, not in kind. Regardless, we can talk of interference from now on.

 

In one post you posit that the difference in attacks is in the method of administration (no resistance to touch attack), whereas in the other you suggest that the effect of the attack is significant (Transformation's effect is internal).  I guess your system then is dependent upon both method of application and effect. 

 

It seems that we agree that surgebinders should be able to have some resistance to Jasnah autokills.  Would an invested Kaladin have some ability to resist surprise attacks from other surgebinders?  I am not clear that we really disagree, as we may believe that the magic system should work similarly in all real cases (albeit maybe for different reasons).

 

You'll forgive me, but I did not mean to imply that "touching" was very important for our analysis. I mentioned how the Full Lashing works, mechanistically, but did not mean to imply any deeper Realmatic conclusion from it. My apologies.

 

So my main concern is with how "fundamental" and/or significant (and/or unwelcome?) a magical effect is, rather than its specific mechanism of delivery.

 

So far as surprise attacks: It depends. I think that, if Szeth Basic-Lashed a stormlight-infused Kaladin to the ceiling, he would start thinking the floor was up, at least until he did his own Basic Lashing to counter it. That's because a Basic Lashing only changes one relatively tangential "part" of a person (their gravitational bond to Roshar) rather than, say, who they are as a person. Which is the fundamental alteration that Soulcasting tries, and so would be a reason why it might fail to affect an infused Kaladin.

 

I apologize for any confusion I caused.

 

I believe that Shardplate's ability to resist Shardblades is based on both it's investiture and it's nature.

 

As for the Ookla thing, I am all for honoring people and having in-jokes.  The evil part of me also enjoys counting coup on people by getting them to complain about me using the name they have chosen.  Please forgive me.

 

Fair enough.

[Shardlet]

It is like some people don't read my posts (gripe, gripe), or maybe I am just not clear

Let us see. Holding something with jets of water is not the same as creating vacuum cells or increasing static pressure. If the pressure is applied equally from all directions, the object would experience compression, but, since the force would be negated by opposing force, it would not in any way stop an object from moving. Case in point : deepwater fish. The pressure, roughly equal (plus buoyance, which is relatively minor in this case) presses the fish from all directions and is tremendous, but the fish moves just fine - the water resistance is the same.

Next example: a "sucker" (ok, I don't know the proper word) stuck on a smooth surface, like glass. It has vacuum below it, holding it in place - yet one can slide it on the surface relatively easily, while moving it away from the surface is nearly impossible. (Sliding around case in edit of my first post)

Now jets of water is a different beast altogether - as described in my second post, they imply moving water, not static system, and the water (or air) has to move somewhere, in this case, below the object, like holding it in place by working vacuum cleaner. That way, any shift in the object position would change the system dynamics, adjusting pressure in a way that would push the object back - the pressure is not constant. This should allow the object to rotate freely if the friction is reduced, but not move.

 

The water jet thing was an analogy Sats.  I was in no way implying that macro kinetic energy is applied in any way (understanding of course that air pressure is a phenomenon of kinetic energy resulting from molecules actually smacking around).

 

Again, the key things to consider is that pressure is the bonding force.  Friction is largely going to be negligible here.  If you were pushing and holding a polished rock against a polished vertical surface with some kind of lubricant applied to the surface, you would still be able to hold the rock in place.  It would be tougher since you have to be more careful as to the direction of the applied force.  But in the case of a lashing, this would not be an issue, the force is constant until the stormlight runs out.   

 

As to the other issue: I think Ookla is right and Ookla is wrong .

[Satsuoni]

Again, the key things to consider is that pressure is the bonding force.  Friction is largely going to be negligible here.  If you were pushing and holding a polished rock against a polished vertical surface with some kind of lubricant applied to the surface, you would still be able to hold the rock in place.  It would be tougher since you have to be more careful as to the direction of the applied force.  But in the case of a lashing, this would not be an issue, the force is constant until the stormlight runs out.   

 

Um? Not really, no. I would be able to hold it in place only if I were to push upwards exactly with the force negating the force of gravity, and would have to adjust the force exactly any time the state changes, such as when I am grabbing the rock the force would have to increase to stop the rock from sliding down. Now friction (that can result from high pressure in the direction of the surface normal) does that automatically (to a limit), while normal pressure does not - and the constant force would not hold the rock in place.

[Shardlet]

Um? Not really, no. I would be able to hold it in place only if I were to push upwards exactly with the force negating the force of gravity, and would have to adjust the force exactly any time the state changes, such as when I am grabbing the rock the force would have to increase to stop the rock from sliding down. Now friction (that can result from high pressure in the direction of the surface normal) does that automatically (to a limit), while normal pressure does not - and the constant force would not hold the rock in place.

 

But would not the lashing force apply force in whatever direction was required to keep the rock pinned to the spot where the lashing was set?

[Satsuoni]

If it is a force, as in "constant force", then no. What you describe is more like a wall (if outside), or a glue (if on contact surface), something that has an elastic response depending on deformation.

[Gloom]

Just out of curiosity, when exactly did we see a pressure surge pin anyone down? When did we see this happen for a long enough period of time that it would require being counteracted with another surge?

 

As for Jasnahs ability to kill almost instantly. Now you understand why Dalinar almost always ware his Shardplate.

[Aether]

Just out of curiosity, when exactly did we see a pressure surge pin anyone down? When did we see this happen for a long enough period of time that it would require being counteracted with another surge?

Szeth did it in the Interlude where he attacks the court of the King of Jah Keved. He uses a Full Lashing on a part of the floor, and all of the enemy guards that walk on it get glued to the floor. It is not clear how long it lasts, but I'd guess it could only last just about as long as Szeth can hold Stormlight. EDIT: Which is to say just a few minutes.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Aether

[Oudeis]

The water jet thing was an analogy Sats. 

 

...

 

If you were pushing and holding a polished rock against a polished vertical surface with some kind of lubricant applied to the surface, you would still be able to hold the rock in place.

 

This is my issue with analogies. Please understand I'm not accusing you of a particularly bad analogy, I just don't like analogies as a whole for this reason. You've given us a way to think about pressure via water jets, but it's falling apart because now we're thinking about the other effects of water jets and they don't apply in this case.

 

But Lift isn't a rock. A rock WILL just sit there and let forces apply to it. If you were holding a polished, lubricated rock on a polished, lubricated surface and it was squirming like all get-out, yes, theoretically you could constantly apply perfect pressure in such a way as to always counter the exact force, but realistically that's implausible. Lift would eventually throw all her weight in one direction, your force would become imbalanced and, if I understand my physics correctly, the force would likely redirect and send her flying in a different direction.

[Gloom]

This is my issue with analogies. Please understand I'm not accusing you of a particularly bad analogy, I just don't like analogies as a whole for this reason. You've given us a way to think about pressure via water jets, but it's falling apart because now we're thinking about the other effects of water jets and they don't apply in this case.

 

But Lift isn't a rock. A rock WILL just sit there and let forces apply to it. If you were holding a polished, lubricated rock on a polished, lubricated surface and it was squirming like all get-out, yes, theoretically you could constantly apply perfect pressure in such a way as to always counter the exact force, but realistically that's implausible. Lift would eventually throw all her weight in one direction, your force would become imbalanced and, if I understand my physics correctly, the force would likely redirect and send her flying in a different direction.

 

Either bindspren are susceptible to the friction surge, or they are capable of countering the friction surge. Until we see those little blue spren try to bind a friction user we won't know.

[Shardlet]

If it is a force, as in "constant force", then no. What you describe is more like a wall (if outside), or a glue (if on contact surface), something that has an elastic response depending on deformation.

 

Except that we do not know the precise nature of the force affecting the lashing.  It may very well be a dynamic force.  In fact if you think abaout it in terms of statics, no matter what force is applied to a body which remains statically positioned relative to a single point, an equal an opposing force is present to maintain the static position.  Thus, no matter what degree of a dynamic force is applied to a static object, an equal and opposing dynamic force is induced to keep the object in position.  It seems that the more you struggle though, the quicker the stormlight powering the lashing would be consumed. 

 

@ Darnam - A human surely could not react appropriately but could not magic do it?

 

@ Gloom - That is assuming that bindspren are the agents of the bond rather than being attracted to the bond.

[Satsuoni]

Well, we don't know the nature, sure. The problem is, we do know that it is based on Pressure, but for some reason works like an adhesive spray. There are only a few ways for pressure to work like that ( that I can think of) , and none of them are elastic.

[Kurkistan]

UPDATE:

 

Lady was kind enough to get us a RAFO on this question:

 

Source:

Lady Radagu's husband: Would a full lashing work in a vacuum? If not, is that because it works by creating a vacuum between the lashed objects?

 

Brandon (semi-verbatim): First, good question. The way lashings work, it does have to do with pressure. But I can't go into it. I'm going to have to RAFO that one. Again, good question.