Question on the spikes

[RShara]

Question from a confused person.  Did Paalm have one spike (the silver+red one), or two spikes in her (silver+red, and a Harmony spike)? 

If she just had one spike, did that spike just give her full Twinborn powers, then?  Since she uses speed and steelpushes and so forth.

 

Do we ever see her actually changing spikes by falling on them, like MeLaan mentioned?

[Stormcrown]

We saw her using different powers after she was out of sight.

 

It was never mentioned of her changing spikes though.

 

The theory in other threads is that the other spike gave her the ability to speak to other people like Ruin, and immunity from Harmony.

 

This would mean that she could change spikes willingly.

 

Without knowing the power of that mysterious spike, its hard to say.

[KC Hammer]

I thought it was said in the book that just before she used steelpushing she was switching spikes. I'm pretty sure she only had one at a time. It could have had the additional effect of letting her talk to spiked people. Especially since when wax gave her a second spike Harmony could take control. If she already had multiple spikes in that wouldn't have mattered. 

[Moogle]

If she already had multiple spikes in that wouldn't have mattered. 

 

How do you know? It could be that trellium spikes don't count for the purposes of Harmony controlling you. (The trellium spike caused her to be invisible to Harmony.) Then, it would have been having two regular spikes (her Steelpushing one and Wax's spike-bullet) that was what let Harmony take her over.

[KC Hammer]

In another thread (http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/46015-shadows-of-self-tour-chicago-oak-brook-il/page-2#entry340620), this was mentioned. 

 

 

Warning: Shadows of Self spoilers!

• I asked Brandon if Bleeder died with one spike made of the unknown metal, or if she had another, regular, spike as well. You know, just for a confirmation, because the wording was ambiguous. Which he confirmed, he didn't intend us to wonder about which one of those actually the case, it's not a big mystery. ONLY HE WOULDN'T REVEAL IT TO ME! He said he'd heard about how divided we are in the interpretation of this, so he is going to let us sit on our theories until the end of the tour. We can then ask Peter to give us the answer.
  • And on that note, Brandon confirmed that Harmony was unable to find Bleeder because her spike was made of that unknown metal, not because the spike and/or the metal granted her the ability to hide from him.

 

 

If it was not intended to be controversial, then it seems to me explanation given by the characters is correct.

[The Sovereign]

I tend to think she had 2 spikes, One was the Trellium Spike and the other being whatever Power she was currently holding. Otherwise when she removed a spike to switch powers she would cease to be a Kandra and would revert to being a mistwraith...

[DreamEternal]

I tend to think she had 2 spikes, One was the Trellium Spike and the other being whatever Power she was currently holding. Otherwise when she removed a spike to switch powers she would cease to be a Kandra and would revert to being a mistwraith...

But that is what other kandra theorize she does... And if Saze couldn't detect her because the spike as of an unknow metal, them also having a normal spike would make her detectable.

[Moogle]

 them also having a normal spike would make her detectable.

 

Would it? Metal blinds Harmony, to Vin it was like she was looking at a blinding light. If her new spike was doing something like that, then Harmony wouldn't be able to detect her normal spike.

 

I'm not entirely clear on the mechanics of course. If Paalm was a beacon of light, I can't imagine Harmony would have a hard time tracking her. So perhaps the god metal was specifically modified to be like a copper fabrial or something.

[11thorderknight]

I think that, if Harmony was able to control Paalm after Wax put a hemalurgic bullet in her, it means that he could see her at that point. The corollary being, if the bullet-spike was open to his influence, any other non-mystery metal spike would have been as well. Therefore, my theory is that Paalm uses a single spike at a time, made of the mystery metal. She likely had other ones, but the characters only found the one she was wearing at the time of her death. 

[Jess]

I think that, if Harmony was able to control Paalm after Wax put a hemalurgic bullet in her, it means that he could see her at that point. The corollary being, if the bullet-spike was open to his influence, any other non-mystery metal spike would have been as well. Therefore, my theory is that Paalm uses a single spike at a time, made of the mystery metal. She likely had other ones, but the characters only found the one she was wearing at the time of her death. 

 

But it's possible that it was the combination of the bullet spike and a second "mundane" spike that allowed Harmony to see her, and neither one would have sufficed in combination with the mystery spike only.

 

At first I also thought Bleeder only had the mystery-metal spike in her... but I've started to question that, because of this WoB:

 

 

What would happen if you gave it a spike imbued with steel allomancy? I'm assuming that wouldn't be enough to grant it sentience but could it then use steel powers? Can you give allomantic powers to a kandra?

BRANDON SANDERSON

 

Hemalurgy can give allomantic powers to a kandra. The process to do so is not known to anyone but Harmony.

 

If Harmony knows the process of giving allomancy to a kandra, then whatever spikes she was using for her feruchemical and allomantic steel were probably NOT the mystery metal. So it seems to me that she probably had one mundane spike giving her a metallic art, then the mystery spike hiding her from Harmony (and possibly allowing her to send her thoughts to Wax), and finally the bullet spike which actually allowed Harmony to control her by bringing her mundane spike total to two.

 

That said, I suppose it's possible that she could have figured out a way to use the mystery spike to grant metallic arts, similar to how atium can steal any attribute. And...

 

If it was not intended to be controversial, then it seems to me explanation given by the characters is correct.

 

This makes a lot of sense too, and Marasi's explanation of her removing both spikes and replacing them with just the mystery spike was pretty clear.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Jess

[ParadoxicalZen]

I'm of the opinion it is one spike. Harmony says in book that the more spikes you have, the greater connection between the person and Harmony is, meaning the easier it is for Harmony to take control of them. Now seeing as we know Kandra blessings are pairs and that Paalm clearly had taken one half of her blessing out,, you could say that at least two spikes are required for Harmony to at least immobilise someone (a Kandra anyway) if we go by the ending. For the allomancy and Feruchemy spikes, my head canon is that as she was absorbing one spike as she was expelling the other, to prevent reverting back to a Mistwraith, which could explain why Harmony was able to see her for very brief moments, as the blessing would be somewhat complete but not long enough for him to stop her

[The Sovereign]

I tend to think she had 2 spikes, One was the Trellium Spike and the other being whatever Power she was currently holding. Otherwise when she removed a spike to switch powers she would cease to be a Kandra and would revert to being a mistwraith...

I have been re-reading SoS and Harmony directly addresses my skepticism about her only having one spike during his coach ride conversation with Wax. He mentions that she is removing the spike reverting to a Mistwraith falling onto the new spike and absorbing to revert back into a Kandra. After reading it a second time I think she does indeed only use 1 spike.

This is supported by the numerous times that they mention that she can create a body faster than any Kandra barring TenSoon. I suspect the process of forming a Kandra body by adding a Spike to a Mistwraith would be similarly quick if you had the skill.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Iron Eyes

[Kaymyth]

 

If Harmony knows the process of giving allomancy to a kandra, then whatever spikes she was using for her feruchemical and allomantic steel were probably NOT the mystery metal. So it seems to me that she probably had one mundane spike giving her a metallic art, then the mystery spike hiding her from Harmony (and possibly allowing her to send her thoughts to Wax), and finally the bullet spike which actually allowed Harmony to control her by bringing her mundane spike total to two.

 

This is possible.  I do remember MeLaan saying that they couldn't tell what attribute the Trellium spike was bestowing; it could very well be part of what was driving her mad.  What if she was actually spiked with the source Shard's Intent?

 

I have been re-reading SoS and Harmony directly addresses my skepticism about her only having one spike during his coach ride conversation with Wax. He mentions that she is removing the spike reverting to a Mistwraith falling onto the new spike and absorbing to revert back into a Kandra. After reading it a second time I think she does indeed only use 1 spike.

This is supported by the numerous times that they mention that she can create a body faster than any Kandra barring TenSoon. I suspect the process of forming a Kandra body by adding a Spike to a Mistwraith would be similarly quick if you had the skill.

 

I think that this was supposition on Harmony's part; he was explaining how it could be possible, not that he knew for certain that was what she was doing.

[The Sovereign]

I think that this was supposition on Harmony's part; he was explaining how it could be possible, not that he knew for certain that was what she was doing.

 

Oh, I certainly agree with you here. I just think that we can take Sazed's (extremely well) educated guess at face value. If nothing else his hypothesis shouldn't be immediately thrown out. I simply drew attention to Harmony's thoughts on the matter because it was something I was actively looking for in my re-read.

[LordJuss]

Maybe it's just me, but I think this is reasonably clear.

 

All the way through it is stated that Paalm has only one spike and Harmony can take control when a second spike is introduced. This is exactly what we see happen - new spike: Harmony starts to take over.

 

The confusion over whether the Trellium spike is an extra seems to arise from Marasi's line in the epilogue "That's one of the spikes she was using."

 

This seems to imply that there was more than one spike. However, we also have this from Marasi slightly later: "It certainly wasn't one of the spikes she started with. That means she removed both, and stuck one like this in instead."

 

So that's one spike total, not one plus a Trellium one. Marasi continues: "Where did she get them? Who gave them to her?" (emphasis mine)

 

Clearly, according to Marasi, there is more than one Trellium spike. Otherwise she would say "where did she get it?"

 

MeLaan explains in more detail later on: "She used these strange spikes to steal attributes, instead of the ones we're familiar with. Maybe that's why she could use stolen Allomancy and Feruchemy."

 

So there were multiple Trellium spikes, which she used to take powers and used one at a time. Surely if she could have used more than one at once, she would have done so.

 

As Marasi says, she removed both Blessings and replaced them with a single Trellium spike. She then powered up several Trellium spikes and switched them in and out as Harmony described, not using more than one at once.

 

At least that's my understanding of it.

 

Cheers,

 

LJ.

[DSC01]

Doesn't Harmony need at least two spikes to control a person/creature, though? The foreign god metal spike doesn't count. He can't use it. Or am I remembering how it works wrong?

[StormingTexan]

So the tour is over right? Has anyone had a chance to ask Peter about the two spikes? 

[Tarion]

So the tour is over right? Has anyone had a chance to ask Peter about the two spikes? 

I was just thinking that - I dropped by this forum to see if we had an answer.

 

Save us Peter!

[War_Breaker]

Maybe it's just me, but I think this is reasonably clear.

All the way through it is stated that Paalm has only one spike and Harmony can take control when a second spike is introduced. This is exactly what we see happen - new spike: Harmony starts to take over.

The confusion over whether the Trellium spike is an extra seems to arise from Marasi's line in the epilogue "That's one of the spikes she was using."

This seems to imply that there was more than one spike. However, we also have this from Marasi slightly later: "It certainly wasn't one of the spikes she started with. That means she removed both, and stuck one like this in instead."

So that's one spike total, not one plus a Trellium one. Marasi continues: "Where did she get them? Who gave them to her?" (emphasis mine)

Clearly, according to Marasi, there is more than one Trellium spike. Otherwise she would say "where did she get it?"

MeLaan explains in more detail later on: "She used these strange spikes to steal attributes, instead of the ones we're familiar with. Maybe that's why she could use stolen Allomancy and Feruchemy."

So there were multiple Trellium spikes, which she used to take powers and used one at a time. Surely if she could have used more than one at once, she would have done so.

As Marasi says, she removed both Blessings and replaced them with a single Trellium spike. She then powered up several Trellium spikes and switched them in and out as Harmony described, not using more than one at once.

At least that's my understanding of it.

Cheers,

LJ.

This is exactly how I saw it. Upvote.

[coppercloud]

I wonder if this whole two spikes to controll is 2 of a gods planet metal.

My theory is maybe the trell spike is a multi spike maybe it's either an alloy or two metals together . haven't reread or check to see if there's a good theory on the rusted patch being blood or rust like coloring in the spike.