Where is the Hell described in the prologue?

[Swimmingly]

Is it a state of mind? A place in the Cognitive Realm? A buried stasis chamber with the unfortunate effect of simulating eternal torture? A different planet? The Spiritual Realm? The middle of the Origin of Storms?

[ADIMORTIS]

At present the best guess is the planet Braize. In a Q and A he mentioned that Odium is on that planet, which is situated in the greater Roshar system

[Swimmingly]

So the Oathpact could be in fact a pact between Honor and Odium(hatred, rage), almost a wager: There will be Heralds of Honor who are sworn to defend against Odium's Desolations, but they will have the choice to leave. Between each Desolation, they will be tortured by Odium or Odium's minions. If they give in to the torture and abandon Honor, Odium reigns (DOOM DOOM DOOOOM)

[Shardlet]

 A buried stasis chamber with the unfortunate effect of simulating eternal torture?

 

Ooh yes.  A giant pain amplifier like Mohiam used on Paul in Dune.  That would rock!    (of course, it is not though).

[The Rooster]

The torture they endure as described by Kalak in the Prelude has always reminded me of Hellraiser.  Maybe they go to the realm of the Cenobites?

[Swimmingly]

The torture they endure as described by Kalak in the Prelude has always reminded me of Hellraiser.  Maybe they go to the realm of the Cenobites?

The torture in Hellraiser has always reminded me of, you know.... hell

[hoser]

This thread might be better placed in the Stormlight Archive forum .

 

Someone brilliant (maybe Gloom) proposed a theory similar to the following: The Heralds return to their planet of origin (Tranquilline Halls) when they died.  Originally that planet was not controlled by Odium and wasn't a place of torture.  Honor, humanity and the Heralds were chased off that planet and, under Odium's control, it became the place of torture. 

 

This makes more sense to me than anything else, as Honor deliberately consigning his champions to hell just seems wrong. 

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

I think they are probably on Braise with Odium for the times between desolations. Can you imagine 4500 years of horrendous torture after you've already endured 

 

Then at a set time before Odium is going to release a desolation, he must release the Heralds for them to try and unite Roshar again. 

 

They probably use Shadesmar to travel between the planets

[Meg]

This thread might be better placed in the Stormlight Archive forum .

 

Someone brilliant (maybe Gloom) proposed a theory similar to the following: The Heralds return to their planet of origin (Tranquilline Halls) when they died.  Originally that planet was not controlled by Odium and wasn't a place of torture.  Honor, humanity and the Heralds were chased off that planet and, under Odium's control, it became the place of torture. 

 

This makes more sense to me than anything else, as Honor deliberately consigning his champions to hell just seems wrong. 

 

This sounds good, but ... there is this from Geranid and her husband:

 

“I don’t have passion for it as I once did,” he continued. “Besides, what good will a cook be in the Spiritual Realm?”

“Heralds need food,” she said absently, scratching out a line on her writing board, then scribbling another line of numbers beneath it.

“Do they?” Ashir asked. “I’ve never been convinced. Oh, I’ve read the speculations, but it just doesn’t seem rational to me. The body must be fed in the Physical Realm, but the spirit exists in a completely different state.”

“A state of ideals,” she replied. “So, you could create ideal foods, perhaps.”

“Hmm…What would be the fun in that? No experimentation.”

“I could do without,” she said, leaning forward to inspect the room’s hearth, where two flamespren danced on the logs’ fire. “If it meant never again having to eat something like that green soup you made last month.”

“Ah,” he said, sounding wistful. “That was something, wasn’t it? Completely revolting, yet made entirely from appetizing ingredients.” He seemed to consider it a personal triumph. “I wonder if they eat in the Cognitive Realm. Is a food there what it sees itself as being? I’ll have to read and see if anyone has ever eaten while visiting Shadesmar.”

TWoK I-8

 

And the talks about the Callings, for example:

 

In Vorin belief, one’s Calling—the task to which one dedicated one’s life—was of vital importance. Choosing a good profession and working hard at it was the best way to ensure good placement in the afterlife.

 

TWoK Chapter 3

 

or

 

“Fighting is not the only thing of value a man can do.” The ardents were very specific about that. Yes, the highest Calling of men was to join the battle in the afterlife to reclaim the Tranquiline Halls, but the Almighty accepted the excellence of any man or woman, regardless of what they did.

You just did your best, picking a profession and an attribute of the Almighty to emulate. A Calling and a Glory, it was said. You worked hard at your profession, and you spent your life trying to live according to a single ideal. The Almighty would accept that, particularly if you were lighteyed—the better your blood as a lighteyes, the more innate Glory you had already.

TWoK Chapter 18

 

Though we don't really know much about the Vorin believes -- we don't even know where that word "Vorin" derives from (in-world, so to speak) -- it seems as if the Tranquiline Halls (if they were to be Hell/Damnation now) wouldn't really be something physical. This place seems to exist in the Spiritual Realm. But a planet is something physical, is it (or: isn't it [i'm not sure, which is the right ending])? So I kind of belief that the Tranquiline Halls are not something physical -> not a planet -> not Braize.

 

Okay, now one could ask how humankind could exist in the Tranquiline Halls if my assumption is right that it's not physical. In my understanding there are no "bodies" in the Spirtual Realm. Could it be that Honor created the bodies (== humans) when he saw that he and his "folks" couldn't stay in the Tranquiline Halls and then -- now with bodies -- they came to Roshar? He might have put the spiritual part of "men" together with their "forms/ideals" from the cognitive part to create Rosharan humans.

 

I'm rambling, sorry.

[Argent]

We don't know enough about the Halls or Damnation to guess whether they are Physical or Spiritual places. They could both easily be physical. I wouldn't be surprised if it was just the way people thought of them that made them seem spiritual, because of the religious mentality.

[Swimmingly]

This thread might be better placed in the Stormlight Archive forum .

 

Someone brilliant (maybe Gloom) proposed a theory similar to the following: The Heralds return to their planet of origin (Tranquilline Halls) when they died.  Originally that planet was not controlled by Odium and wasn't a place of torture.  Honor, humanity and the Heralds were chased off that planet and, under Odium's control, it became the place of torture. 

 

This makes more sense to me than anything else, as Honor deliberately consigning his champions to hell just seems wrong. 

Sorry about that. I thought I was, and then I realized I did it wrong - besides, depending on where they are, it could still be a Cosmere theory

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

We don't know enough about the Halls or Damnation to guess whether they are Physical or Spiritual places. They could both easily be physical. I wouldn't be surprised if it was just the way people thought of them that made them seem spiritual, because of the religious mentality.

 

When I've read Way of Kings, I've always read the section and quotes about "fighting to reclaim the Tranquilline Halls" in the afterlife as religious build up around the Heralds. After all, Kalak says directly to Jezrien in the Prelude: 

 

"They see us as divinities," Kalak whispered. "They rely on us, Jezrien. We're all that they have." 

- Way of Kings, Prelude to the Stormlight Archive. Page 16

 

That was said following the last Desolation when the Heralds broke the Oathpact, when the humans of Roshar (other than Knights Radiant), were still people in "primitive wraps, carrying spears topped by bronze heads." (also pg. 16 of the Prelude). So when the Heralds departed (it will be interesting to see if they are dead or not), the humans of Roshar took to worshiping the Heralds as they had already been doing. Then there was 4500 years of history and development on Roshar, a.k.a. written history. 

 

As to the locale of the "hell" of the Heralds... to me both of the statements below say that it's a physical place. "Sent back...", "go back...", "to that place...", "be back...". All of these speak to me of a physical place. 

 

That was dangerous. When he died, he was sent back, no choice. When he survived the Desolation, he was supposed to go back as well. Back to that place that he dreaded. Back to that place of pain and fire. What if he just decided… not to go?

 

Sanderson, Brandon (2010-08-31). The Way of Kings (Stormlight Archive, The) (Kindle Locations 213-214). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

"He would be back now, in the place they went between Desolations. The place of nightmares." - Way of Kings, Prelude to the Stormlight Archive. Page 16

 

We know that the Cognitive Realm (Shadesmar) is all those individual black spheres which can form shapes or transport people around, but there doesn't appear to be fire to be had there from the small glimpses we've seen of it. 

 

Looking at the broader Cosmere, the only other glimpse we see of the afterlife that we see is from Hero of Ages in the note that Sazed leaves for Spook:

 

I tried to bring them back, but apparently fixing the bodies doesn't return the souls. I will get better at this with time, I expect. However, be assured that I have spoken with our friends, and they are quite happy where they are. They deserve a rest, I think.

 

Sanderson, Brandon (2008-10-11). The Hero of Ages (Mistborn, Book 3) (Kindle Locations 11848-11849). Macmillan. Kindle Edition. 

 

So that indicates a kind of "spiritual place" or at least a state of being that is both spiritual and cognitive in nature because they can think, talk, and enjoy that state. 

 

For me the clincher on a physical location of the "hell" is the section in Way of Kings already quoted above: 

 

When he survived the Desolation, he was supposed to go back as well...

 

To me, this says that the Heralds went somewhere physically, either via Shadesmar to another planet or to the Origin of Storms in the far east of Roshar... wherever Odium reigns (which from the Spokane Q&A, we know is Braize a planet in the Roshar system): 

 

Brandon:

Odium's presence is felt on Roshar, but he is on Braize, the 3rd planet in the system.

 

The reason I think it is physical, is because a Herald has to choose to go there at the end of a desolation if they survive. If it was only Spiritual, to get there, they would either have to self suicide or if it is a Physical place of torment, they could travel physically (via Shadesmar or some other surgebinding technique). 

 

As noted above, I agree that there are states of being in the Cosmere that exist in only the Spiritual/Coginitive sense, where souls go when severed from their body. I think (perhaps wrongly) that it would not make sense for the Heralds to have to suicide to get to their between desolation torment, so I opt for a physical place of torture and damnation, where Odium reigns on Braize. 

 

I also believe/think that the regularity of the Desolations has/had to do with planetary/orbital alignments between Braize and Roshar. 

 

EDIT: tried to make the ending a little more clear

Edited November 26, 2013 by Green Hoodie Mistborn

[hoser]

I admire the thoughtful presentation and basically agree with the conclusion about where the Heralds go as posted above.  I don't understand how you supported the conclusion in the section below. 

The reason I think it is physical, is because a Herald would have to choose to go there at the end of a desolation if they survived. To do that, they would either have to 1: self suicide or 2: travel physically. 

 

As noted above, I agree that there are states of being in the Cosmere that exist in only the Spiritual/Coginitive sense, where souls go when severed from their body. I think (perhaps wrongly) that it would not make sense for the Heralds to have to suicide to get to their between desolation torment, so I opt for a physical place of torture and damnation, where Odium reigns on Braize. 

We know that Hoid travels through Shadesmar to planet hop.  It seems that Shallan and Jasnah were in Shadesmar also.  So I don't see why the Heralds would have had to suicide to get there.  Apparently it is possible to physically travel to Shadesmar at least. 

Edited November 26, 2013 by hoser

[Green Hoodie Mistborn]

Oh, I agree if it is a Physical place that they go for torment, then they could easily make use of Shadesmar to planet hop. 

 

Looks like I mis-typed some of that section as it was a post I kept coming back to through the day. I will edit for clarity!

 

I was more trying to address the idea that some of put forth that the "hell" they go to is a Spiritual place rather than physical. If it is just Spiritual, the soul needs to be severed from the body to get there. If they die in the Desolation, easy. If they live however, they would have to suicide or assisted suicide to get to a Spiritual only place. 

 

The flip side to that though, I do think their place of torment is physical. But the ones who die would have to basically be re-spawning in that place once they die if it's Physical. We know they re-spawn because they are present for each Desolation even if they die in the previous one, so I'm guessing they respawn in the clutches of Odium so to speak. 

 

Now whether that is their original planet that Odium has since taken over (i.e. "being driven from the Tranquilline Halls") or if the Oathpact always had them respawn in Odium's power as part of the pact is another question entirely. 

 

New question that just occurred to me... if a Herald were to die after the last desolation and the abandonment of the Oathpact by the 9 Heralds, would they respawn with Odium or go to their final rest? Thoughts? 

[Swimmingly]

It entirely depends on what the Oathpact is - the theme of the books suggests that if you consciously break an oath, you've probably released yourself from it. All of Brandon's "good" religions and magics seem to have an element of choice to them. However, it's possible the Oathpact was a one-time decision, so abandoning it just meant that they had to avoid dying if they didn't want to be trapped there again. Additionally, has anyone considered the possibility that if their spirits are preserved when they die, the desolations Regrow them from Spirit and perhaps a Cognitive presence alone? Think Miles Hundredlives, but literally from no physical body at all. Unless a fragment of their bodies are kept in Hell to Regrow them from.

[Gloom]

That was said following the last Desolation when the Heralds broke the Oathpact, when the humans of Roshar (other than Knights Radiant), were still people in "primitive wraps, carrying spears topped by bronze heads." (also pg. 16 of the Prelude). So when the Heralds departed (it will be interesting to see if they are dead or not), the humans of Roshar took to worshiping the Heralds as they had already been doing. Then there was 4500 years of history and development on Roshar, a.k.a. written history. 

 

I largely agree with the post in general, but I felt the need to clarify a small point. The state of civilization we see in the prelude shouldn't be considered a constant up through the time of the last desolation. There were apparent high points of civilization that occurred prior to the desolation in which the Heralds opted out. The Silver Kingdoms were formed, Nohadon was the king of what appeared to have been a city rich in culture, art, and history, a city that Dalinar recognized as Kholinar. Nohadon was familiar with written records and the writing of books. The great cities already existed. Nohadon was finely attired. All of this existed prior to the formation of the Knights Radiant. So just because all we saw was the rag tag remnants of a bygone age, it doesn't mean that in previous ages things weren't better. Roshar may have been even more civilized in past ages than it is in the age we see.

[Oudeis]

It is interesting to note that Heralds usually die, and that dying automatically send them to "hell". I actually wonder somewhat if this ties in with their apparent longevity... on the one hand, it seems that death is how they "go" to "hell," based on the fact that dying is the only way we know for them to go there for sure. And since they're still alive after all this time, they've apparently managed to avoid death. Compare this to the idea that "not going to Hell" is high on their list. Logically, i can see evidence that dying sends you to Hell, much the way it sends people on Nalthis through the "iridescent tones". There are a few scraps from the books discussing the afterlife... Endowment with her Returned, Kelsier sticking around in the Cognitive for (apparently) hundreds of years, the fact that Harmony says he can't bring them back "yet". Perhaps Hell is a place that ISN'T in any of the three realms; maybe it is where spirits go beyond. Maybe with preparation beforehand, the combined might of Honor and Odium could decide, "these ten people; when they die, we will track their progress beyond the Realms, leaving something in place that will let us draw them back out again."

 

However... I dunno. My gut says no. I get that it could work, but Kalak's description is just too visceral to me. Too specific, too physical. He doesn't discuss angst or existential anything, they are very clear and specific physical acts being performed upon a body. It strikes me that it HAS to be somewhere physical.

[Swimmingly]

In shadesmere Shallan and Jasnah both have clear physical sensations in which they experience their bodies. I don't see why you couldn't then be tortured there.

[Oudeis]

Valid. The other conundrum is the idea of having the fat and flesh burned off your bones every day only to appear anew... Is that just part of being a Herald? Rapid healing?

[Kadrok]

Someone brilliant (maybe Gloom) proposed a theory similar to the following: The Heralds return to their planet of origin (Tranquilline Halls) when they died.  Originally that planet was not controlled by Odium and wasn't a place of torture.  Honor, humanity and the Heralds were chased off that planet and, under Odium's control, it became the place of torture. 

 

This makes more sense to me than anything else, as Honor deliberately consigning his champions to hell just seems wrong. 

I love this. Honor sets the Tranquiline Halls as the respawn and fallback point for the Heralds, a kind of Valhalla for his champions to rest in until they're drawn out again to fight the desolations. Odium conquers Valhalla. It's BRILLIANT!

 

The only issue is why wouldn't Honor change the spawn/fallback point... perhaps the Heralds and the location are so bound up in the system that changing that detail would reset the system... like restarting a computer to get the components working... however, in this case the computer is the life support of the Heralds, and restarting it would temporarily end their immortality, killing them. Normally a character losing immortality and dying instantly makes absolutely no sense in fiction, but the force of how things are meant to be (be careful of invoking Kurkistan...) might make this reasonable in this case.

 

I wonder if Tanavast said... "Guys, bad news... you've lived so long sustained by the Herald system that if I turn it off to fix it, you'll die. Between every desolation, or if you die during a desolation you'll spawn in enemy territory... I don't know what you'll face there, but it could be horrible... still... better than dying, right?"

 

It kind of makes sense if you think about it... in "Hell" their healing factor is maxed out, their flesh seared off and instantly regrowing... they're fully immortal in the ex-Tranquiline Halls, and if they die elsewhere they just respawn back in the Tranquiline Halls. The torture happens, because no matter how Immortal they are, they're massively outnumbered in Odium's conquered territory. 

It also makes Taln's comment that he has failed at the end of WoK make sense... true to his nature he fought and fought hard back at the spawn point, trying to win it on his own and prevent the next desolation.

Edited December 12, 2013 by Kadrok