theory One Spike (at a time)

[IAmTheBeard]

I'm just going to post this as a new topic because right now the discussion is spread across many threads.

 

So after the climax, when Marasi is showing Wax the spike made of an unknown metal, and when she's talking to MeLaan about it, she comments that it is "one of the spikes [bleeder] was using". I've seen a lot of people assuming that this means she was using it at the time she died, and that "one of" means that she had other spikes in her (that she put there). While I'm not ruling this out as a possible interpretation, I think that it far from ironclad, and not the most likely possibility. Here are a few reasons.

 

1) We are told repeatedly, including by Harmony, that Bleeder only has one spike, that any above and beyond this would allow him to take control of her. It's entirely possible that the characters are wrong (less likely about Harmony, though he admits that he cannot see her consistently), but...

 

2) The characters, who knew that Bleeder was supposed to have only one spike, don't suddenly express surprise at finding two. If Harmony/MeLaan/TenSoon (and Wax) had all been wrong about this, Marasi might be expected to mention that. 

 

3) Marasi calls the spike "one of the spikes she was using" (emphasis mine, obviously), which can imply that she's talking about one of the spikes she's been using for various powers. She doesn't say "one of the spikes she had in her" or something to that effect. This is lent further credence by the fact that...

 

4) The narrative constantly points out is that Bleeder has access to multiple spikes. When they find Idashwy, Wax points out that the antagonist might have any number of powers, or all of them. Furthermore, they know at least one place where Bleeder changed powers (where Wax was right before he saw her using Coinshot abilities), so they could have gone back there for the spike. But that's assuming she wasn't just carrying them all on her person at all times. They also know where she's been a lot of the time (or, at least, who she's been impersonating), so they could have conducted a search for her "stash."

 

5) It has been assumed that the "Trellium" spike is what allows her to avoid detection by Harmony. In fact, Harmony outright explains that this is because having god-like powers is "complicated." It isn't mysterious to Harmony, just frustrating. He and Wax have a good laugh over it. (I'll post more on this if I have time.)

 

I do see some problems with this theory. One is how Bleeder is able to communicate with spiked people. This isn't an ability we have clearly seen a metal capable of doing. But it appears that Brandon has gone out of his way to avoid explaining this. The only clue we have, that I recall, is TenSoon's apparent surprise that Bleeder spoke to Wax directly, and the fact that he wasn't surprised (and knew about) Bleeder's ability to speak directly to Wax's mind. But I don't think this ability necessarily demands another spike, and if we assume the spike enables it, then that spike is doing two things according to the theories already proposed. The second... I forget right now, but it had something to do with the various powers Bleeder used.

 

I plan to update this theory header as we get more discussion. Also, I anticipate a lot of people's questions at signings to pertain to this Trellium!

[Argent]

I am pretty much with you on this. Founding a theory on some ambiguous wording makes for a poor foundation, and the evidence for Bleeder having many spikes, but only keeping one at a time is overwhelming.

[Zas678]

My idea is that rather than gaving to do a despike-fall-on a new spike, that perhaps she has a pocket (perhaps covered in hair so that it doesn't come in contact with her flesh) where she keeps the spikes she's using (though really, we only see the Speed spike and the Steelpush spike). 

 

As for if she had other Trellium spikes in her? I'm not sure. The text is vague. 

[Galavantes]

I can honestly see this going both ways. On one hand every character seemed pretty convinced that she only had one spike. However, characters can and have been wrong. The "bavadium" spike would/could certainly explain her odd abilities. As well as the fact that she seemed quite sane, albeit obsessed with "freeing" the world from Harmony, which would make a lot of sense if 50% of her sapience was being derived from the Autonomy Shard. 

Edited October 8, 2015 by Galavantes

[Orlion Blight]

My understanding is that the spikes she used were made of this "new metal" because "that would account for her being able to use abilities that kandra aren't suppose to be able to use". 

 

We also know there were multiple spikes because they're the same ones used in the Hemalurgic Constructs that attacked TenSoon and Wax in the Homeland. Could be that they were experiments, could also be that they are just spiked to prevent excessive leak of power from the spike (doesn't the spike lose efficiency when it's not impaled in a body?)

[Argent]

(doesn't the spike lose efficiency when it's not impaled in a body?)

 

Apparently you can simply coat it in blood.

[IAmTheBeard]

The bit about Bleeder not acting insane is also covered in the books. Her goals are insane, not because they're a bad idea, really, but because they're not really connected to her desires. Overthrowing Elendel isn't going to overthrow Harmony, and we have no reason to suspect that "strong emotion" is going to make people less susceptible to Harmony's "control." I say "no reason to suspect" rather than "it's not true" because it is possible Bleeder has some kind of outside knowledge about how to upset harmony from wherever she got the "Trellium." 

 

Anyway, she's remarked as being quite rational with her plans, just not with her outcomes. That's usually how psychotic people work. They can be quite adept at planning, but they plan to do things that don't make sense, and don't have anything to do with their actions.

[Moogle]

The bit about Bleeder not acting insane is also covered in the books. Her goals are insane, not because they're a bad idea, really, but because they're not really connected to her desires. Overthrowing Elendel isn't going to overthrow Harmony, and we have no reason to suspect that "strong emotion" is going to make people less susceptible to Harmony's "control." I say "no reason to suspect" rather than "it's not true" because it is possible Bleeder has some kind of outside knowledge about how to upset harmony from wherever she got the "Trellium."

 

Overthrowing Elendel doesn't overthrow Harmony, but it does free people from his influence. Her plan revealed Harmony's manipulations to the people (distrusting kandra/Pathists massively reduces his influence), could have ruined Elendel (Harmony's own design), and genuinely changed things. She might have been a bit crazy in her "strong emotion frees them", I'll grant, but with a little bit of charitable reading it's not hard to see that a massive revolution completely shattering the status quo does get people off of Harmony's Path.

 

Anyway, she's remarked as being quite rational with her plans, just not with her outcomes. That's usually how psychotic people work. They can be quite adept at planning, but they plan to do things that don't make sense, and don't have anything to do with their actions.

 

Do you have a source for this? I was under the impression that psychotic people were bad at accomplishing their goals/forming rational effective plans.

[teknopathetic]

the only unique metal we know of is ralcolist from Sel. The book is called Shadows of SEL-f . Coincidence? 

 

I dont think there should be too many foreign metals that are unique incomposition. Trellism sounds like Whitesand (we publically know that there is a dayside and a night side, and the planet doesnt spin), but only Sel has been shown to have a unique metal. My money is on a Ralcolist spike. 

[natc]

The name "Sel" isn't English so that point is kinda moot.

Technically any shard could just go and create whatever weird metal they want. It's probably not difficult if you can set the Pits if Hathsin to just gather and solidify spent Ruin investiture automatically with no further input. Scadrial makes everything happen in some metal-related way.

Edited October 9, 2015 by natc

[vineyarddawg]

I haven't really seen anybody talking about anything other than the spike that Bleeder had.  But what about the spikes in all the human/hybrids?  I'd assume that Bleeder had more than just one "trellium" spike.  She might have had a lot of "trellium" spikes, using some to steal allomantic and feruchemical abilities, and others to somehow transform the humans she spiked into those deformed creatures that were chasing Wax and TenSoon.

[Ari]

I agree with you that all that's guaranteed is that Paalm was using at least one spike. It is possible that she had a second spike, if it was made of the alien God Metal, especially as one specific candidate for "Trell" could well shield her from Harmony's influence that way.

 

I'm not ruling out that she had only a single spike, but I think some of the abilities she displayed could be much more readily explained if she was in fact using the alien God Metal spike herself.

[Elbereth]

I can honestly see this going both ways. On one hand every character seemed pretty convinced that she only had one spike. However, characters can and have been wrong. The "bavadium" spike would/could certainly explain her odd abilities. As well as the fact that she seemed quite sane, albeit obsessed with "freeing" the world from Harmony, which would make a lot of sense if 50% of her sapience was being derived from the Autonomy Shard.

Now, I don't know whether she had one or two spikes. I prefer the two spikes explanation, but I would not be surprised at either.

If she did have two spikes in her most of the time (one trellium and one normal Hemalurgic spike), she could still have been insane (which is how she seemed to me). To the best of our knowledge, she probably had two different types of Investiture within her. I would not be surprised to find that they were in conflict within her, making her at least a little bit insane even though she had two spikes.

We have a WoB that most Investiture interferes with other Investiture. I'm not sure if that applies in this case, though. Thoughts?

[Govir]

I agree with you. I feel like Bleeder/Paalm is only using one spike at a time.

 

I'm still new to posting around here, so I'm going to be super cautious and post this behind spoiler tags. Spoilers all for Shadows of Self.

My evidence is the fact that Harmony says she's only using one spike (but he could be wrong), but even more so is the way they bring down Bleeder: They add a spike. If she was using two spikes all along, and the "Trellium" spike was preventing Harmony's control, then why did adding another spike allow Harmony to try and take control? Additionally (albeit less concrete), I got the impression that Bleeder also believed that having two spikes would allow Harmony to try and control her, so why would she use two at a time, even if it was offering some protection?

 

I had originally pointed out the phrasing Marasi uses to indicate that there were multiple "Trellium" spikes, but I'm not sure if I was so clear with implying she was using one at a time.

[Elbereth]

So we have a WoB on this topic:

Warning: Shadows of Self spoilers!

• [*]I asked Brandon if Bleeder died with one spike made of the unknown metal, or if she had another, regular, spike as well. You know, just for a confirmation, because the wording was ambiguous. Which he confirmed, he didn't intend us to wonder about which one of those actually the case, it's not a big mystery.

ONLY HE WOULDN'T REVEAL IT TO ME! He said he'd heard about how divided we are in the interpretation of this, so he is going to let us sit on our theories until the end of the tour. We can then ask Peter to give us the answer.

So yeah... We'll find out eventually, I suppose.

[Galavantes]

So we have a WoB on this topic:

So yeah... We'll find out eventually, I suppose.

 

Funny because Brandon immediately dispelled the debate over Asmodean's killer when he got RJ's notes. And now he's doing the exact same thing.

[Moogle]

If Brandon didn't intend for it to be a mystery, I am updating in favor of Paalm only having one spike, as that is what a casual surface reading of the book would have you think.

 

(Even though she really should have had two. Why would trellium be able to steal Allomancy/Feruchemy?)

[Oudeis]

I concur that if it wasn't meant to be a mystery, this is the obvious reading. Since it's what people flat-out say frequently.

 

Maybe it's an alloy? Trellim-pewter to steal Idashwy's power, trellium-steel to make her a coinshot? The way lerasium-bronze would make you a misting of bronze, maybe these alloys take a trait in a way that allows it to be granted to a kandra.

[StormingTexan]

 

Maybe it's an alloy? Trellim-pewter to steal Idashwy's power, trellium-steel to make her a coinshot? The way lerasium-bronze would make you a misting of bronze, maybe these alloys take a trait in a way that allows it to be granted to a kandra.

 

I like this idea and think it is pretty plausible even by the description of the spike. 

[Tarion]

(Even though she really should have had two. Why would trellium be able to steal Allomancy/Feruchemy?)

Why can Atium steal Allomancy?

 

Hell, why does Atium (Ruin) when used Feruchemically and Allomantically (Preservation) give the ultimate in Preservation, agelessness?  

 

God metals do weird things.  

I do like the alloy suggestion too.  

[FirstSelector]

Atium is the universal Hemalurgic spike, and can be used to steal anything.

[Tarion]

Atium is the universal Hemalurgic spike, and can be used to steal anything.

And clearly, Trellium, or whatever metal it was, has similar properties (at least so far as allomancy/feruchemy go). 

 

Which isn't unusual because, again, God metals do weird things.  

Given that we've not seen the rise of a whole new metallic art, it looks like whatever new Shard we have is just working within the framework already in place on the planet.  Ending up with a similar effect to one of the Shards already there seems fairly straightforward.

[Moogle]

Why can Atium steal Allomancy?

 

Hell, why does Atium (Ruin) when used Feruchemically and Allomantically (Preservation) give the ultimate in Preservation, agelessness?  

 

God metals do weird things. 

 

"God metals do weird things" is not the same thing as "therefore, God metals should be able to do anything". Most magical powers do not have overlap - burning steel does not let you Pull on metal, burning iron does not let you Push on metal. A tinmind does not store speed, a goldmind does not store wakefulness.

 

In Allomancy, lerasium allows you to burn all the metals (ie. Preservation's body has an overarching effect relating to Preservation's system). In Hemalurgy, atium allows you to steal any trait (ie. Ruin's body has an overarching effect relating to Ruin's system), and it has a single, rather constrained, effect in Feruchemy and Preservation.

 

In Hemalurgy, steel steals Allomantic steel, and no other metal does that (except for those outside the system, like atium).

 

Based on these patterns, another god metal should not have an overarching effect in a system it does not belong to - it should steal a single, unique trait that no other metal (except atium) steals.

 

It is not intuitive or natural for another god metal to be able to steal any trait. Oudeis' theory does not convince me, unless there's some way to explain why the alloy of this god metal would be able to steal Allomancy/Feruchemy when the other alloy we know of - malatium - had its power changed. I would expect such an alloy to also steal something different than the base Feruchemy/Allomancy.

[Tarion]

It's not necessarily intuitive that a God Metal would be able to steal any trait, I agree.  

 

However, given how little we know of the God Metals outside of their "aligned" magical systems (Atium being literally the only one we've seen, granting the ability to live forever when Compounded, seemingly in strict opposition to it's Shard's intent), I don't think it's unreasonable to take it in stride when it apparently happens in the text.

 

I would however point out that you're potentially off with Lerasium's effect - Allowing you to burn all metals is a side effect.  A Mistborn burning Lerasium would have a different effect.  Which kind of ties into my point about how little we know of the God metals.  Atium is literally the only one where we know it's effects, either in it's own system or in the others.  We just don't know enough to really say that the new information we're discovering is inconsistent with what has gone before.  

 

I'm not sure, but I could certainly see the argument that the "stealing any trait" is Atium's equivalent of "Give you the ability to burn any metals" - A side effect of the metal - and the primary element of Atium is it's ability to hold more charge than other metals, potentially overcoming Hemalurgic decay.

Edited October 14, 2015 by Tarion

[Moogle]

I would however point out that you're potentially off with Lerasium's effect - Allowing you to burn all metals is a side effect. A Mistborn burning Lerasium would have a different effect. Which kind of ties into my point about how little we know of the God metals. Atium is literally the only one where we know it's effects, either in it's own system or in the others. We just don't know enough to really say that the new information we're discovering is inconsistent with what has gone before.

I'd be careful with the lerasium thing - the WoBs on those are unclear. For example, there's this WoB:

BRANDON SANDERSON (paraphrased)

Lerasium overwrites Spiritual DNA. It can do some interesting things, and can overwrite your Spiritual DNA in different ways if you do it right. If a Surgebinder ate lerasium, he would become an Allomancer, but Brandon implied other things could be done.

(source)

I wouldn't state so firmly that it's a side-effect, despite the WoB mentioning it.

However, given how little we know of the God Metals outside of their "aligned" magical systems (Atium being literally the only one we've seen, granting the ability to live forever when Compounded, seemingly in strict opposition to it's Shard's intent), I don't think it's unreasonable to take it in stride when it apparently happens in the text.

A Shard's Intent has little to nothing to do with what effect it has in magic systems. Ruin was bad at seeing the future, and atium lets you see you the future. Nothing about Steelpushing is "of" Preservation. In Hemalurgy, atium results in less Hemalurgic decay, also counter to its Intent.

What I'm trying to say here is that it seems a Shard's Investiture within its own system has very broad effects. Nothing about what I'm saying has anything to do with Intent.

What odds would you lay on harmonium creating a metalmind that can store anything? I'd put them pretty high, for all that we don't know enough about the god metals. (We do know via the Chicago signing that such a metalmind does exist. I'm waiting for a transcription, or else I'd link it.)

I agree we can't say anything with confidence, but it seems very very wrong for our newest god metal to be so universal. I would be deeply appreciative of a WoB on it - I want the tour to be over, so Peter can confirm/deny it!