Law of 16 exception

[Stormgate]

There are 16 Allomantic metals, however, there were commonly believed to be only eight. In Stormlight Archives, we are given ten surges, ten essences, ten orders of Knight Radiant, and so on. Are we seeing something like on Skadrial, or is Sanderson drawing our attention with a new 'Law of Ten'? The 16 rule references the 16 Shards of Adonalsium. Would the new law of ten be referencing that there are only ten shards left after Odium killed five and Preservation and Ruin formed Harmony?

[Patar]

I'm not sure that this is the right place for this question. I think that the ten essences and ten orders and related to the ten heralds, although I suppose this could be wrong.

[Argent]

The number ten is kind of Honor's thing. Brandon once hinted that there is a more technical explanation (he referred to what he called "Honor's Purposes"), but he's been really tight-lipped about it. So, no, I don't think so. It seems like every Shard, or maybe every Shardworld, has a special number. It's how magic systems manifest.

[Ari]

The number ten is kind of Honor's thing. Brandon once hinted that there is a more technical explanation (he referred to what he called "Honor's Purposes"), but he's been really tight-lipped about it. So, no, I don't think so. It seems like every Shard, or maybe every Shardworld, has a special number. It's how magic systems manifest.

 

Not particularly. There doesn't seem to be any special numbers to Awakening or the various Selish magic systems.

[Yata]

Not particularly. There doesn't seem to be any special numbers to Awakening or the various Selish magic systems.

Just because we don't find it maybe.

Remember that they both have sequels and we find about the "16" in Mistborn only in the end (if i don't remember wrong in the Hero of Ages).

[Lord Ruler]

There probably wont be more orders unless Brandon makes more in the plot of the book or pulls a huge head fake. We have seen how all the surges overlap, so unless brandon says one order dosen't exist and puts the six more radiants in that gap.

[aon]

This is something I have actually been thinking on a lot myself recently, and I believe that it is highly possible that there could indeed be 16 Surges;
Brandon, as mentioned above, has stated that 10 is a special number to Honor as he has 10 purposes - each of which a Herald (and then an order of the Knights Radiant) represents. However this doesn't mean that there aren't more than 10 Surges. I feel it is highly possible that there are infact 16 and Honor only chose to use 10 for his Heralds as it was his number. It would be therefore entirely possible for other Surges to show up - if the Spren are able to figure out how to grant access to them.

​

Not particularly. There doesn't seem to be any special numbers to Awakening or the various Selish magic systems.

The thing is that we've technically seen very little from these magic systems and it is quite possible that there are special numbers (for example there could be 10 'orders' to the types of commands in Awakening)

Edited October 7, 2015 by aon

[Moogle]

The pairing of Surges is "natural":

Khyrindor
Do the Honourblades reflect the natural pairing of Surges, or did Honor decide which Surge pair to put in each Blade?

Brandon Sanderson (Paraphrased)
The pairs are natural to Roshar in the same way as the metals on Scadrial.
(source)

 

We know from the Surgebinding Chart that there's no "breaks" in the pairs, so for more Surges to exist they'd have to form their own new system, sort of.

 

Overall, I'm thinking it's super unlikely that there's more.

[Ari]

Just because we don't find it maybe.

Remember that they both have sequels and we find about the "16" in Mistborn only in the end (if i don't remember wrong in the Hero of Ages).

 

There are way more than 16 Aons, if the magical number is related to them in any way it'd have to be 16 constituent parts. Breath heightenings seem to come in multiples of ten, so as far as we know there's no significance. Just because a number is significant to the Cosmere doesn't mean it's going to show up in every single magic system.

 

This is something I have actually been thinking on a lot myself recently, and I believe that it is highly possible that there could indeed be 16 Surges;

Brandon, as mentioned above, has stated that 10 is a special number to Honor as he has 10 purposes - each of which a Herald (and then an order of the Knights Radiant) represents. However this doesn't mean that there aren't more than 10 Surges. I feel it is highly possible that there are infact 16 and Honor only chose to use 10 for his Heralds as it was his number. It would be therefore entirely possible for other Surges to show up - if the Spren are able to figure out how to grant access to them.

​

The thing is that we've technically seen very little from these magic systems and it is quite possible that there are special numbers (for example there could be 10 'orders' to the types of commands in Awakening)

 

I prefer to restrict my speculation to things we can actually get some guidance on in the text. We have WoB that the reason there are ten orders is that Honour had "10 purposes" that naturally subdivided his power. Brandon would have to be deliberately giving us misleading information in WoBs to do that, and so far his approach has just been to RAFO anything that needs to stay even mildly mysterious for cosmere- or plot-related reasons, so I really think we can shoot down the number 16 interacting with Radiants. You're better off thinking about what the Orders and Heralds imply for the Ten Purposes IMO.

 

It is possible for other "surges" to show up, in the sense that people from any other worlds with sentient splinters could form something analogous to the Nahel bond while on Roshar according to a recent WoB asking about Seons. So you could have "Knights of Devotion" and "Knights of Dominion" show up from Sel if they worldhopped with a Seon or a Skaze. That said, as far as we know, only Sel has sentient investiture bearing Splinters, and Endowment has dead humans resurrected with non-sentient Splinters, so unless four of the seven unknown Shards have been Splintered, I don't think we're going to see six new types of Knights showing up.

[Yata]

.......

I have to misunderstood your post then.

 

I said simply that "probably every Shardworld as his own magic number but we don't find it yet" not that all the "magic numbers" are 16.

[aeromancer]

Ah, Harmony's symbol is ten interlocking rings.

 

.... I have no idea why, though.

[Ari]

I have to misunderstood your post then.

 

I said simply that "probably every Shardworld as his own magic number but we don't find it yet" not that all the "magic numbers" are 16.

 

Honour has a specific reason to have ten. As far as we know other shards don't have subdivided Intents they way he does.

 

Sixteen was built into Scadrial as a consequence of its significance to Adonalsium, although arguably they now have nineteen metals thanks to Sazed's ascension.

 

I think we don't have anything that backs up any additional "magic numbers" showing up. The only two of any significance so far seem to be 16 shards and 10 shardworlds, which keep popping up.

 

 

Ah, Harmony's symbol is ten interlocking rings.

 

.... I have no idea why, though.

 

I suggest reading about Sazed's rings in HoA, as they are most likely referencing those.

[aeromancer]

 

I suggest reading about Sazed's rings in HoA, as they are most likely referencing those.

 

Could be - but I got RAFO'd by Brandon about it. Also, to pick a bag of rings as your religious symbol?

[Ari]

Could be - but I got RAFO'd by Brandon about it. Also, to pick a bag of rings as your religious symbol?

 

Well, it was the first time a feruchemist had their metalminds embedded into their skin like that- only TLR thought of something similar, but his were technically feruchemical spikes. You could argue it was a moment of great magical significance.

 

I suppose it's possible it also refers to the ten shardworlds, which would be the other significance of ten that can possibly apply to Scadrial.

[Stormgate]

Interestingly enough, I'm being off-topic here to get back on topic. It occurs to me that, on the chart of KR orders, Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers both are on the inside, rather than the [bold]eight[/bold] orders on the outside. Not only that, Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers are both very unique from the others: Bondsmiths had no more than three members at a time, and Truthwatchers were extremely secretive. On Scadrial, they started out knowing the eight basic metals, and the two God metals (I realise that they didn't know about lerasium). They eventually discover all sixteen, so perhaps something similar will happen on Roshar. I'm not saying that it's likely, I'm not saying I have any evidence, I just like speculation.

And if we aren't allowed to make speculations, then why I am on this site?

[Eagle of the Forest Path]

Not particularly. There doesn't seem to be any special numbers to Awakening or the various Selish magic systems.

 

Actually on Nalthis the magic number seems to be 5

 

5 visions in austrism

the 5 scholars

a divine breath takes you to the 5th heightening...

 

edit: the four types of Biochromatic entities plus regular humans, makes 5 kinds of quasi-sentient beings

 

My theory is that every shard has it's associated number, Preservation's probably had to be 16 because of it's nature, using that to keep a link to Adonalsium.

Edited November 7, 2015 by EagleOfTheForestPath

[+Slowswift]

The number ten is kind of Honor's thing. Brandon once hinted that there is a more technical explanation (he referred to what he called "Honor's Purposes"), but he's been really tight-lipped about it. So, no, I don't think so. It seems like every Shard, or maybe every Shardworld, has a special number. It's how magic systems manifest.

...

-1 is my Epic weakness.

[KidWayne]

Interestingly enough, I'm being off-topic here to get back on topic. It occurs to me that, on the chart of KR orders, Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers both are on the inside, rather than the eight orders on the outside. Not only that, Bondsmiths and Truthwatchers are both very unique from the others: Bondsmiths had no more than three members at a time, and Truthwatchers were extremely secretive. On Scadrial, they started out knowing the eight basic metals, and the two God metals (I realise that they didn't know about lerasium). They eventually discover all sixteen, so perhaps something similar will happen on Roshar. I'm not saying that it's likely, I'm not saying I have any evidence, I just like speculation.

And if we aren't allowed to make speculations, then why I am on this site?

I really like this idea. I thought about the surges in the middle too. It's actually something that has been bothering me since I first took a good look at the surge chart (not because there weren't 16, but because the two in the middle just seemed out of place).

Stormlight Archive spoilers:

Of course the other 6 surges could be related to void-binding. There are 3 shards on Roshar. The first 10 could be manifestations of Honor & Cultivation and the last 6 could belong to Odium. Although something in the back of my head is telling me that I have seen a void-binding chart somewhere and it had more that 6 surges...

Edited November 8, 2015 by KidWayne

[Shaukan-son-Hasweth]

I think that the number 10 comes from the idea that Honors intent could be divided in 10 honorable aktions. Protecting(Windrunners), bringing people together(Bondsmiths), preserve justice(Skybreakers), remembering the forgotten/disadvantaged (Edgedancers) etc. But the lies of the Lightweavers mess a little mit my theory

[Lirins hand]

Every time I look at the surgebinding chart, it feels like a 3 dimensional "object" portrayed in 2 dimensions.  Specifically those jagged lines crossing over/under each other and the surges.   If you were to render it back into 3D (probably a sphere), would that open up other combinations that disappear in a 2D rendering?

[Avivsm]

I am very fond of the Shardic Number Theory.

In my version of it every Shard has an associated number between 1-16 (as for 16 Shards, which influence upon the Shard's magic system

My numbering:

Preservation's is 16 for the obvious reasons

Ruin's is 1. Putting it exactly opposite to Preservation and meaning that his only atribute of its magic system is Stealing

Endowment's is 5 as EagleOfTheForestPath put it

Actually on Nalthis the magic number seems to be 5

 

5 visions in austrism

the 5 scholars

a divine breath takes you to the 5th heightening...

 

edit: the four types of Biochromatic entities plus regular humans, makes 5 kinds of quasi-sentient beings

 

My theory is that every shard has it's associated number, Preservation's probably had to be 16 because of it's nature, using that to keep a link to Adonalsium.

Honor's is 10. Also for the obvious reasons

Odium's is 11. Well this is a little bit not as strong as the others. In WoR Sebrial use the phrase "what in Damnation’s eleventh name" (page 361)

so in the Vorionism Damnation has at least 11 names. I think it has 11 exactly.

Cultivation's is 9. This is even more scratchy. Brandon said the there 30 magic systems on Roshar 30-10-11=9. I said it's scratchy

Devotion/Dominion not even a clue. Never saw their magic system before they were Splintered. Maybe Devotion's is 3, that number is heavily used in Elantris.

Harmony's is 17. As for 16+1. I would say that Harmony is most associated with Feruchemy than any of the Metallic Arts.

So my theory is that Sazedium (I would never accept Harmonium, NEVER) won't has Allomantic use only a very powerful Feruchemical use.

[natc]

By that final bit of logic lerasium spikes wouldn't work, and burning atium an impossibility. Which is false.

[Avivsm]

By that final bit of logic lerasium spikes wouldn't work, and burning atium an impossibility. Which is false.

I don't see why with this logic lerasium spikes wouldn't work. In my theory the number of substances in which you could use for Hemalurgy isn't cosmerlly fixed like in Allomancy.

We don't know if atium and its alloy are possible to burn after Harmony changed Allomancy (Marsh abilities which pre-date that change wasn't affected by it).

Another take is that burning Atium isn't using Preservation power but Ruin. In the HoA Annotations for chapter 71 Brandon wrote that

"This metal doesn’t quite belong on the table where it has been placed"

I think the most elegant way to look on this isue is to put asterisks on any thing that is a part of Shards like Splinters, the God Metals and Shardpools which is more cosmerlly wide magic system (Did someone said Adonalsium's magic system? Who said that blaspamy?!)

Edited November 13, 2015 by aviv1525

[natc]

Atium doesn't belong in that spot on the table primarily because atium behaves as an internal temporal metal, much like electrum. The spaces taken by atium and malatium belonged to cadmium and bendalloy, which distort external time rather than distorting the internal perception of time. There is no reason to suggest atium isn't allomantically viable, in fact lerasium does not fit on the table either, nor do the theoretical 32+ god metal alloys. It is said that both shards can power all three systems, so where the lerasium originated from isn't of absolute importance.

For hemalurgy to not share metals with other metallic arts completely defies everything we've known about the metallic arts this entire time. The metal dependence is something beyond the shards' control to begin with, it's mostly realmatic in nature (hence the metal blindness they get). All Preservation seems to have modified so far is on the misting end of things, and not the fundamentals. God metal mistings shouldn't logically exist since god metals aren't exactly a fixed feature of the cosmere.

EDIT: Even the allomantic ability of atium actually seems to run counter to the fact that Preservation's ability to see the future appears to be far greater by thousands of years, while Ruin can't see trickery even 1 second in advance. Ruin is much more rooted in hemalurgy, yet his power can function in the "opposing" system perfectly well, and it has a feruchemical effect that, while it does manipulate decay, actually does the opposite of ruining when in use. I just don't see why even a shard associated mainly with feruchemy (if you bear that line of thinking) would not have a metal that works across all systems as well. Shardic power channeled through metallic arts seems to do rather counterintuitive things, and also has always worked across the systems without exception.

(Sazed himself prefers the name Harmonium apparently, so get used to it).

Edited November 14, 2015 by natc