Random Stuff III

[Zathoth]

What is even happening on this thread anymore

We had a philosophical discussion about the meaninglessness of everything.

 

Well, ok, it was mostly me and Orlion agreeing with each other, but that happens.

[Mistrunner]

Not at all. How did your sleep deprivation turn out?

The sleep deprivation turned out DC jsnwkflflvjzz....zzzzzzz... I mean fine

Nope. What is it?

It's Mist, and weren't you one of the people who used it? Edited October 19, 2015 by Mistrunner

[+Slowswift]

The sleep deprivation turned out DC jsnwkflflvjzz....zzzzzzz... I mean fine

It's Mist, and weren't you one of the people who used it?

Oh yeah.

[Zathoth]

The sleep deprivation turned out DC jsnwkflflvjzz....zzzzzzz... I mean fine

It's Mist, and weren't you one of the people who used it?

I see, you almost died?

Would Ms Runner be an acceptable pun/nickname? Well, mostly pun...

[Seonid]

Personally, I'm going to respectfully disagree on the fundamental meaninglessness of the universe. I agree with Kobold's assessment of nihilism as well.

As far as meaning goes, I'm also going to dispute the point that the fundamental destiny of every individual is to be forgotten in at best a few thousand years, and that the ultimate end of humanity is to have its last ages erased in the expansion of the Sun, or else to die with the rest of the universe. (Actually, as far as the heat death of the universe goes, that is by no means assured.)

Of course, my disputation of these points is rooted in my belief of the perpetual existence of the soul (not in and of itself a religious belief, but in my case, it is tied to my religious faith). And my assertion of meaning in the universe is also tired to my religious faith. Since we likely disagree on the fundamental truth claims of my religion (I find them highly persuasive, but I am well aware that many do not), we are likely to remain disagreeing on these points as well. I just wanted to note that your view of the universe is not the only possible one.

[Mckeedee123]

Was Spider-Man 2 good?

 

Electro's origin story and voice sort of bugged me, and so did the scene in the clock tower (gears. eh. We all know how this ends. You don't need to draw it out.  ) But overall, it was good, yes. I think the main reason it didn't do well was that the public was against Sony for not putting Spiderman in the MCU yet.

 

And here: Link.

 

And here's another link. To Link! I must still be sort of loopy...

 

The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly was also very good. Imean, it was slow (and 4 hours!) but awesome. That's about all I can describe it as.

 

No. No there wasn't. I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

I think Venom is a great villain. The things we had to do to get to venom, though... Terrible, terrible things. Think of the children!

 

Aaaaugh! He's dancing again! Avert your eyes!

 

 

 

I think the general consensus is that Toby Maguire plays a much better Peter Parker, and Andrew Garfield plays a much better Spiderman. My main complaint with the 2000's movies was MJ screaming. It's so annoying and she does it all the time. Do real people in real danger actually do that? Imean, really, people.

 

You bury nihilism in routine? Isn't that a contradiction in terms?

 

Nope.

 

I was introduced to existentialism back in my senior year in High School. Pretty much every novel we read in English was tagged as "existentialist," though Waiting for Godot was the most blatant of them. Basically, the central idea of that play is that we always want to change ourselves, but we never do. We just sort of do the same thing every day and fret about the future. Routine is a tool we use to dodge our existential dread, because it's a drive. We just sort of push ourselves forward to go to work or school or whatever and that keeps us going long enough to get to the next day, in which we do the same thing again.

 

What if we conclusively discovered that everything is meaningful?

 

Well, yeah. That's called religion. Philosophy sort of exists in a vacuum where it's taboo to venture into the non-objective world of theology, but I think religion makes a lot of sense, existentially. The only question is whether or not God is actually real.

 

Imean, hey, I'm a practicing LDS. Being mormon centers around the idea of building a "testimony," or in other words, the "warm-and-fuzzy" feeling you get when you do something good is the Light of Christ acting upon our lives, and so by letting that feeling testify that God is with you and therefore _____-that-you're-thinking is true, you can be more and more sure of the church's truth as a whole.

 

I (not to be a jerk or anything. I'm literally just stating my thought process) am pretty darn sure that mormonism is true. It's not just that I got a pretty undeniable (it seems to me) testimony of patriarchal blessings, it's a whole bunch of stories I've heard growing up in an LDS environment. I've heard mission stories, miracle stories, and even ghost stories, mostly from the people who experienced them themselves or from a my-friend perspective.

 

All of this could make me pretty confident in stating that LDS-ism is the way, but here's the rub about religion: Everyone else is pretty darn sure that their's is true, too! This thought drives me crazy! You've got Born-Again Christians and ISIS and whatever-Kaymyth-is who will swear that they hold the truth. And about 1 in 40 of these people (probably) are INTJ's just like me, who probably try to desperately assemble some sort of evidence dossier just like me in order to ward off their nihilistic angst. I feel as if I'm dying in a sea of objectivity. It's impossible to escape these sorts of thoughts if you look at it logically...

 

Mormonism has a way out of this, I suppose, in that we say that the Light of Christ isn't unique to us. Other people can feel it too when they're doing good or feeling humble and are therefore closer to God. This has led me to this conclusion. Either I am right, or no one is. Fortunately, if no one is right and we just rot in the ground after we die, I would have absolutely no way of knowing that because I'd be rotting in the ground and all experience would have ended. Quantum Afterlife. So there.

 

Of course, if all experience ends, life is meaningless. Happiness does not matter. The survival of the human race does not matter. I do not matter. Therefore, I should just kill myself and get it over with, correct? No point struggling against my own incompetency (as an INTJ I base my self worth on internal growth) or going to college or anything.

[Zathoth]

Personally, I'm going to respectfully disagree on the fundamental meaninglessness of the universe. I agree with Kobold's assessment of nihilism as well.

As far as meaning goes, I'm also going to dispute the point that the fundamental destiny of every individual is to be forgotten in at best a few thousand years, and that the ultimate end of humanity is to have its last ages erased in the expansion of the Sun, or else to die with the rest of the universe. (Actually, as far as the heat death of the universe goes, that is by no means assured.)

Of course, my disputation of these points is rooted in my belief of the perpetual existence of the soul (not in and of itself a religious belief, but in my case, it is tied to my religious faith). And my assertion of meaning in the universe is also tired to my religious faith. Since we likely disagree on the fundamental truth claims of my religion (I find them highly persuasive, but I am well aware that many do not), we are likely to remain disagreeing on these points as well. I just wanted to note that your view of the universe is not the only possible one.

I will respectfully accept your disagreement.

 

Well, the universe will supposedly end, some day (well, not day, there will be no concepts of days then... language...) And even if something will outlast that I still find that existence to be pretty meaningless, in the hilarious and absurd way that is.

 

That is very possible, if you find your beliefs useful then they will be useful then... well, use them. (It is too late to be eloquent XD)

I am of course curious what the fundamental truths of your religion are.

 

Of course not, I am, being the faulty human I am most likely wrong anyway, but it makes sense to me.

 

 

Electro's origin story and voice sort of bugged me, and so did the scene in the clock tower (gears. eh. We all know how this ends. You don't need to draw it out.  ) But overall, it was good, yes. I think the main reason it didn't do well was that the public was against Sony for not putting Spiderman in the MCU yet.

 

And here: Link.

 

And here's another link. To Link! I must still be sort of loopy...

 

The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly was also very good. Imean, it was slow (and 4 hours!) but awesome. That's about all I can describe it as.

 

 

I think Venom is a great villain. The things we had to do to get to venom, though... Terrible, terrible things. Think of the children!

 

Aaaaugh! He's dancing again! Avert your eyes!

 

 

 

I think the general consensus is that Toby Maguire plays a much better Peter Parker, and Andrew Garfield plays a much better Spiderman. My main complaint with the 2000's movies was MJ screaming. It's so annoying and she does it all the time. Do real people in real danger actually do that? Imean, really, people.

 

 

Nope.

 

I was introduced to existentialism back in my senior year in High School. Pretty much every novel we read in English was tagged as "existentialist," though Waiting for Godot was the most blatant of them. Basically, the central idea of that play is that we always want to change ourselves, but we never do. We just sort of do the same thing every day and fret about the future. Routine is a tool we use to dodge our existential dread, because it's a drive. We just sort of push ourselves forward to go to work or school or whatever and that keeps us going long enough to get to the next day, in which we do the same thing again.

 

 

Well, yeah. That's called religion. Philosophy sort of exists in a vacuum where it's taboo to venture into the non-objective world of theology, but I think religion makes a lot of sense, existentially. The only question is whether or not God is actually real.

 

Imean, hey, I'm a practicing LDS. Being mormon centers around the idea of building a "testimony," or in other words, the "warm-and-fuzzy" feeling you get when you do something good is the Light of Christ acting upon our lives, and so by letting that feeling testify that God is with you and therefore _____-that-you're-thinking is true, you can be more and more sure of the church's truth as a whole.

 

I (not to be a jerk or anything. I'm literally just stating my thought process) am pretty darn sure that mormonism is true. It's not just that I got a pretty undeniable (it seems to me) testimony of patriarchal blessings, it's a whole bunch of stories I've heard growing up in an LDS environment. I've heard mission stories, miracle stories, and even ghost stories, mostly from the people who experienced them themselves or from a my-friend perspective.

 

All of this could make me pretty confident in stating that LDS-ism is the way, but here's the rub about religion: Everyone else is pretty darn sure that their's is true, too! This thought drives me crazy! You've got Born-Again Christians and ISIS and whatever-Kaymyth-is who will swear that they hold the truth. And about 1 in 40 of these people (probably) are INTJ's just like me, who probably try to desperately assemble some sort of evidence dossier just like me in order to ward off their nihilistic angst. I feel as if I'm dying in a sea of objectivity. It's impossible to escape these sorts of thoughts if you look at it logically...

 

Mormonism has a way out of this, I suppose, in that we say that the Light of Christ isn't unique to us. Other people can feel it too when they're doing good or feeling humble and are therefore closer to God. This has led me to this conclusion. Either I am right, or no one is. Fortunately, if no one is right and we just rot in the ground after we die, I would have absolutely no way of knowing that because I'd be rotting in the ground and all experience would have ended. Quantum Afterlife. So there.

 

Of course, if all experience ends, life is meaningless. Happiness does not matter. The survival of the human race does not matter. I do not matter. Therefore, I should just kill myself and get it over with, correct? No point struggling against my own incompetency (as an INTJ I base my self worth on internal growth) or going to college or anything.

You dont need the nihilism to be angst, embrace it, love it, laugh at it, laugh with it, after all hilarious.

 

My personal conclusion is that everyones wrong, even me. I view faith as a tool. My instrument of choice is the guitar and my voice, doesnt stop me from picking up other instruments if I find them interesting. Sometimes you need a hammer, sometimes you need a wrench, if all you have is a hammer Im sure you'll find interesting ways to use that.

 

No, you see, suicide is not the answer (well, it is an answer, I just dont think it is the right answer, as much as my subjective opinion goes), death is even more pointless than being alive, so you might as well live.

[DreamEternal]

Fun and happiness aren't the same thing. One is in the moment and situation based, the other is a positive outlook and general satisfaction in life which I believe comes from finding a purpose.

Yeah, I meant happiness. Althought when I am on depression it doens't really seems like something that is actualy real. A feeling of purpose and happiness are not the same thing, but depression does drain both away, and while "fun" is still possible it feels empty by the end of day. Feeling like you acomplished something however, leaves a more lasting sensation. I thank whoever is up there listening for not making my depression last forever.

EDIT: Mckeedee, while I am an INTP, not an INTJ, and my current religious position is... imprecise, I can say that I often feel the same way about trying to find a way of warding of the nihilism. For some people, the momentary joys of the material life aren't enough, for they were built to search for something more, something eternal and true. Something that may not even exist.

Edited October 19, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[Seonid]

I'm a Mormon, like Mek. The fundamental truth claims of my religion include a lot of specific assertions about divine intrusion into human history, but most of that isn't really relevant to the present conversation.

The relevant truth claims involve the existence of a divine Being (actually, a divine Couple), whose dedicated purpose is to help intelligent life to grow into divinity. That's the purpose I see in the universe - providing a place for intelligent life to come to be and to gain the experience and compassion needed to be able to be "good" holders of divinity.

Meaning in Mormonism is found primarily in the development of relationships. Family bonds, friendship, etc. All these are understood to be at least potentially permanent. (And given Mormonism's Universalist leanings, all or almost all such are functionally permanent.)

TL;DR - The purpose of the universe is to create gods and goddesses (specifically, gods and goddesses who don't accuse their power), and relationships between people is what makes that purpose worth pursuing/gives meaning to that purpose.

[Zathoth]

Interesting, very interesting...

 

Of course Im going to end up asking what the meaning of gods and goddesses are because asking annoying questions is what I do XD (You dont need to answer that, it is just a demonstration of me being unable to accept anything)

 

 

Anyway I shall probably get some rest. Have a good, hopefully continued existence.

[Mistrunner]

I see, you almost died?

Would Ms Runner be an acceptable pun/nickname? Well, mostly pun...

...I like it.

[TwiLyghtSansSparkles]

I'm a Mormon, like Mek. The fundamental truth claims of my religion include a lot of specific assertions about divine intrusion into human history, but most of that isn't really relevant to the present conversation.

The relevant truth claims involve the existence of a divine Being (actually, a divine Couple), whose dedicated purpose is to help intelligent life to grow into divinity. That's the purpose I see in the universe - providing a place for intelligent life to come to be and to gain the experience and compassion needed to be able to be "good" holders of divinity.

Meaning in Mormonism is found primarily in the development of relationships. Family bonds, friendship, etc. All these are understood to be at least potentially permanent. (And given Mormonism's Universalist leanings, all or almost all such are functionally permanent.)

TL;DR - The purpose of the universe is to create gods and goddesses (specifically, gods and goddesses who don't accuse their power), and relationships between people is what makes that purpose worth pursuing/gives meaning to that purpose.

 

I don't have anything meaningful to add (at this point in my faith journey or whatever you like to call it, I consider myself to be at a Lightsong sort of place—questioning everything I've been told; wondering why this, that, and the other thing are important; wondering what my faith should really look like). I still consider myself a Christian (though I'm growing to prefer other terms) but I'm working through a lot of baggage. 

 

I just quoted this to say thank you for explaining Mormonism in a clear, concise way. I grew up being taught that certain other denominations were evil and wrong, and hearing what Mormons believe without having it colored with "but they're clearly wrong, clearly" was both interesting and helpful for me as I sort through different denominational beliefs and compare them to my own developing ones. 

Edited October 20, 2015 by TwiLyghtSansSparkles

[Seonid]

I don't have anything meaningful to add (at this point in my faith journey or whatever you like to call it, I consider myself to be at a Lightsong sort of place—questioning everything I've been told; wondering why this, that, and the other thing are important; wondering what my faith should really look like). I still consider myself a Christian (though I'm growing to prefer other terms) but I'm working through a lot of baggage.

I just quoted this to say thank you for explaining Mormonism in a clear, concise way. I grew up being taught that certain other denominations were evil and wrong, and hearing what Mormons believe without having it colored with "but they're clearly wrong, clearly" was both interesting and helpful for me as I sort through different denominational beliefs and compare them to my own developing ones.

I'm glad to be of service. I wish you the best in your search. From personal experience, it's tough at times, trying to sort out what you believe.

If you're curious about the rest of Mormon beliefs (the ones that are still foundational and important, but have to do with human history and divine interaction - and therefore don't contribute much to a discussion on the point of the universe ), feel free to drop me a PM. I love these types of conversations (actually, enough that religious studies is one of the college degrees I'm working towards).

[Mckeedee123]

Mckeedee, while I am an INTP, not an INTJ, and my current religious position is... imprecise, I can say that I often feel the same way about trying to find a way of warding of the nihilism. For some people, the momentary joys of the material life aren't enough, for they were built to search for something more, something eternal and true. Something that may not even exist.

 

I don't have a problem finding meaning. All of the "speculative philosophy is a sham" people from the 20th century based their arguments on the idea that God was dead. Well, I sort of reject that premise, because the existence of a supreme being can't really be disproven. The answers to "Who are we?", "Where did we come from?", and "Where are we going?" exist in theology if they exist at all. The problem I is that I know that I can't decide if I have a good reason to believe or not. I'm pretty sure most people can relate to that.

[Orlion Blight]

I don't have a problem finding meaning. All of the "speculative philosophy is a sham" people from the 20th century based their arguments on the idea that God was dead. Well, I sort of reject that premise, because the existence of a supreme being can't really be disproven. The answers to "Who are we?", "Where did we come from?", and "Where are we going?" exist in theology if they exist at all. The problem I is that I know that I can't decide if I have a good reason to believe or not. I'm pretty sure most people can relate to that.

 

The term "God is dead" has less to do with actual metaphysics than with the observation that society was moving away from a theologically based morality to a secular based one. That's how Nietzsche and the following Existentialists would have viewed it, it has since been perverted by the populace at large to have only its base literal meaning, but that is to be expected. It's what happens, public discourse rarely has room for nuance. Which is why there should be more forum based communication!   

[Mashadar Mistborn]

My kindle just told me that it was at 65367% charge. I fear a svrakiss.

[The Honor Spren]

Oh dear. I leave for 4 hours and look what happens. Full theology/philosophy discussion and I missed most of it!

I am also LDS (look at us, taking over this forum). And, like the others have more or less stated, believe that souls are forever, our purpose on this earth is to get as close to perfect as possible in our short mortal lives, and ultimately return to live with our Heavenly Father again to live in the Celestial Kingdom (heaven) for eternity.

Sometimes, I sit there and try to imagine it. Eternity. It's mind boggling. Eternity. Forever and ever. Always existing without end, and even harder to imagine, without beginning. So then I go to the other extreme. If we die and our consciousness doesn't continue onward, our memories are gone. We stop existing. Can you imagine that? Not existing? Of course not, for as long as you can remember, you have existed.

And now I don't know where to go with this, so I'll just leave you with these thought provoking questions.

What I tend to think about more, is memories. What if life is just one big memory that you move through? If something happened, but no one remembers it, and there was nothing to show it had happened or anything, did it ever even happen?

(Once again, just leaving these questions here, because I have no conclusion.)

To go back to a lighter topic, is it weird that I'm jealous of people on here with forum nicknames? My member title doesn't work well with abbreviations, the most awkward being "Hon".

And some emoticons because there wasn't room for them in this post and I'm dying to use some.

Edited October 20, 2015 by The Honor Spren

[ThirdGen]

I've always considered "God is dead" to be the showy, headline-grabbing way of putting it.  (Hrmm... this isn't actually from a philosopher, but Pirates of the Caribbean, buuuuut) "The immaterial has become immaterial" is much better.

[Kaymyth]

I've always found most levels of nihilistic thought to be a bit dull.  Does nothing we do matter in the bigger picture?  Meh, whatevs.  I like my life, and I'm going to live my life, and I am going to enjoy the everloving frell out of my life because angsting about the ultimate cosmic whatevers sounds dreadfully upsetting.  Just shout, "42!" and move on.

 

...and whatever-Kaymyth-is...

 

This.  Cracked.  Me.  Up. 

 

Kemetic pagan, by the way.  Worship (ish, in my case) of the ancient Egyptian gods.  All that plus a heaping helping of Unitarian Universalism - "Everyone's got a handle on some piece of it, just follow Wheaton's Law and you'll be fine."

 

Or to put it in terms that totally pin my age up on the board, here are the highest words of wisdom from the two most profound philosphers of our day:

 

"Be excellent to each other."

"Party on, dudes!"

[Mashadar Mistborn]

I've always found most levels of nihilistic thought to be a bit dull.  Does nothing we do matter in the bigger picture?  Meh, whatevs.  I like my life, and I'm going to live my life, and I am going to enjoy the everloving frell out of my life because angsting about the ultimate cosmic whatevers sounds dreadfully upsetting.  Just shout, "42!" and move on.

This is my philosophy phrased more eloquently than I could manage. I'll worry about what I can change and deal with what I can't.

[Mistrunner]

Or to put it in terms that totally pin my age up on the board, here are the highest words of wisdom from the two most profound philosphers of our day:

 

"Be excellent to each other."

"Party on, dudes!"

Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure!

[Kaymyth]

Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure!

 

Yep!  Ahh, the movies of my teenagerhood.

 

 

(Well, almost anyway.  I believe that it came out the year I turned 12.)

Edited October 20, 2015 by Kaymyth

[ThirdGen]

I think I still have the little phone booth that came in a box of Bill & Ted's Excellent Cereal.

[Kaymyth]

I think I still have the little phone booth that came in a box of Bill & Ted's Excellent Cereal.

 

Heh.  I wasn't allowed to get the "fun" cereal as a kid.  It was Cheerios or Rice Krispies or something else without a crapton of sugar, and woe betide me if I agitated for the sugarbombs.

[Mckeedee123]

I've always considered "God is dead" to be the showy, headline-grabbing way of putting it.  (Hrmm... this isn't actually from a philosopher, but Pirates of the Caribbean, buuuuut) "The immaterial has become immaterial" is much better.

 

I'm aware. Modern philosophy does pretty much assume the absence of a Supreme Being, however.

 

And yeah, I'm ready to move on. Has anyone not seen the new Star Wars trailer yet?

Edited October 20, 2015 by Mckeedee123