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Szeth's Truth


EmagSamurai

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I'm still learning my way around here, so I apologize if this has been considered before.

 

Is it possible that Szeth is truthless as a result of a failed bond with the same type of spren that Shallan bonded with? I'm wondering if the Shin are aware of the symbolheads, and their stone shamans bond with them in some sort of public ceremony or ritual. Perhaps Szeth was intended to do this, but when asked for his truth to complete the bond, he lied?

 

I don't know if a failed bond preclude him from seeing the symbolheads any longer, as he doesn't mention them.

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This might be of use to this discussion.

 

 

T.T

 

What did Szeth do to become a Truthless, and is there anything else involved in being a Truthless that we haven't seen?"

 

Brandon Sanderson

 

Szeth was perceived as betraying his people in a fundamental way, and you will learn more about that when his book comes along.

 


Personally, I don't think it has to do with a failed bond with a Cryptic.

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I'm glad to have at least contributed something that hasn't come up in the last week or two  :D

 

This might be of use to this discussion.

 

 


Personally, I don't think it has to do with a failed bond with a Cryptic.

 

Thanks for the link! My instinct is that Szeth's truthless status is something different as well, but this jumped out at me in my reading. The more I thought about it, the more it seemed to offer a fitting solution where I had nothing else.

 

I can certainly see where a failed bond due to a public untruth could be seen as a betrayel to the Shin. Their dealings with Vstim and Rysn (Interlude-4 RYSN) indicate they place a high priority on being truthful with others. In fact, to me it seemed the whole point of that chapter was to point out how much emphasis they place on honesty. 

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There are apparently neither spren nor highstorms in Shinovar.  I assume that spren are somehow dependent on stormlight.  This theory would need to account for Cryptics coexisting with Szeth somehow. 

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There are apparently neither spren nor highstorms in Shinovar.  I assume that spren are somehow dependent on stormlight.  This theory would need to account for Cryptics coexisting with Szeth somehow. 

Hmmmm.... Good point. But how does one become a surgebinder with no spren? My current (limited) understanding of lashings is that spren are responsible, or at least involved. An example being when Kaladin begins attaching rocks to things, he notes the spren at the interface between the rock and the wall. If that's true, then Szeth would have had to have some interaction with spren in order to learn about his surgebinding abilities. 

 

Perhaps I have a fundamental misunderstanding of how Szeth's lashings work?

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That sounds interesting. Can someone post a "what we know" summary to compare it against?

Like, we know Szeth used to be a respected member of society before he was Truthless. And that would fit just fine.

 

Challenge accepted let me try.

 

1- The Shin don't use metal that was mined.

2- They allways tell the true, (see that trading exchange was a example).

3- The Shin have a pretty cool fight style that focus in grab maneuvers

 

1- If they don't mine how they obtain metal to supply a whole society? Well, the symbol head spreens(cryptics) are sprens associated with soulcasting.

2- They Allwayssssssssss, tell the true =) Do the math  the cryptics bond when strong trues are told

3- Why have a figthing style that focus in grab maneuvers? Well that is handy when you need touch something to soulcast. (Jasnah ligthning trick use to much stormlight and, I believe, is something unique to her order) 

 

 

Just saying =)

 

And one upvote to Bloodfalcon for the mental exercise challenge =)

Edited by Natans
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I I'm new to the site  i was just reading through when a question occurred to me so i thought i would go ahead and ask.

 

Do we know how the cryptics see or know the truth?

 

Is it the persons believe in what there saying is truth or do they somehow see deeper such as the actual event itself, for example if an adopted person unaware of their adoption gave the names of the people he believed to be his parents as a truth would this be seen as such or would they know otherwise.

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But his honor insists that they do.  At least I think the quote is honor.

Yep! It's honor. That is one of the more confusing lines in an already confusing introduction/beginning. 

And Natans, you just crushed it.  14 gold hexagons for you, and one upvote for always pulling through.

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I I'm new to the site  i was just reading through when a question occurred to me so i thought i would go ahead and ask.

 

Do we know how the cryptics see or know the truth?

 

Is it the persons believe in what there saying is truth or do they somehow see deeper such as the actual event itself, for example if an adopted person unaware of their adoption gave the names of the people he believed to be his parents as a truth would this be seen as such or would they know otherwise.

 

 

That is a good question, maybe is like you said, the cryptics are Cognitive beings, so if something is seen as true by many people or by all the people that known about it existence, in the cognitive realm the concept of that thing would reflect the idea that the persons have about this thing, making the idea true.

 

So true is what the people really believe is true, and this is what the cryptics know. (crazy talk =) )

 

 

PS:   

Yep! It's honor. That is one of the more confusing lines in an already confusing introduction/beginning. 

And Natans, you just crushed it.  14 gold hexagons for you, and one upvote for always pulling through.

 

 

Tks, I just said the first thing that occurred me ;)

 

(I very sleep now, so forgive my musings) 

Edited by Natans
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Is it the persons believe in what there saying is truth or do they somehow see deeper such as the actual event itself, for example if an adopted person unaware of their adoption gave the names of the people he believed to be his parents as a truth would this be seen as such or would they know otherwise.

 

This is a great question. I suspect there will be alot about this in WoR. I there such a  thing as absolute truth??

 

For example, did Shallan actually murder her father? Or is this just how she see herself out of misplaced guilt?

 

 

There are apparently neither spren nor highstorms in Shinovar.  I assume that spren are somehow dependent on stormlight.  

 

I partially agree, there are no highstorms (or rather the highstorms are blocked by the mountains). I keep an open mind on the no spren  though.

 

Are there no spren in Shinovar?

 

OR are they just unable to manifest because of the lack of stromlight / highstorms. They could be there but nobody can see them.

 

However, no highstorms = no infused gemstones = no soulcasting.

 

 

 

On Szeth / Voidbringers: His punishment says they do not exist. His honor says that they do..

 

My favorite theory is that there was / in a voidbringer (or voidish relic maybe) in Shinovar and Szeth stumbled accross it or attacked it (maybe picked up a weapon to do so)... or something like that anyway.

 

Whatever it was, Szeth honor (telling the truth) says he saw / attacked a voidbringer.

Szeths punishment is for telling lies about Shin sacred things (therfore he is truthless).

 

This is all guesswork...book two is not even out yet and already I want book 3! I need help.

Edited by MadRand
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I wonder if proof of voidbringers existance comes to light as Szeth attacks Dalinar, would he seize to be truthless and be his own master again? Seeing how his "honor" was right and his punishment wrong then, according to that quote? Then perhaps, swearing to follow Dalinar in an attempt to make right the wrongs he have commited?

 

Longshot mayb, but still;)

Edited by dyring
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Is it the persons believe in what there saying is truth or do they somehow see deeper such as the actual event itself, for example if an adopted person unaware of their adoption gave the names of the people he believed to be his parents as a truth would this be seen as such or would they know otherwise.

 

 

I agree, this is a good question. I suspect that it is intent that determines whether the Cryptics will accept something as truth. If you believe you are telling the truth, that is enough. It will be interesting to see how that plays out in the upcoming books. It could certainly offer an opportunity for some twists.

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Yeah, probably. Otherwise it'd be fairly easy to get them to evaluate statements of unknown truth value, at least for people who are pretty confident they are true. Also, it's possible to conceal information from Shards, so it's highly unlikely the Cryptics can absolutely confirm any arbitrary statement as true or false. Then again, it's possible they compare statements to what they think is objective truth and can potentially be deceived.

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Yeah, probably. Otherwise it'd be fairly easy to get them to evaluate statements of unknown truth value, at least for people who are pretty confident they are true. Also, it's possible to conceal information from Shards, so it's highly unlikely the Cryptics can absolutely confirm any arbitrary statement as true or false. Then again, it's possible they compare statements to what they think is objective truth and can potentially be deceived.

 

I don't think you could get Cryptics to confirm anything that doesn't relate to yourself:

 

 

Creatures, she said in her head. Can you hear me?

Yes, always, a whisper came in response.  Though she'd hoped to hear it, she still jumped.

Can you return me to that place? she asked.

You need to tell me something true, it replied.  The more true, the stronger our bond.

Jasnah is using a fake Soulcaster, Shallan thought.  I'm sure that's a truth.

That's not enough, the voice whispered.  I must know something true about you.  Tell me.  The stronger the truth, the more hidden it is, the more powerful the bond.  Tell me.  Tell me.  What are you?

"What am I?" Shallan whispered.  "Truthfully?"  It was a day for confrontation. She felt strangely strong, steady.  Time to speak it.  "I'm a murderer.  I killed my father."

Ah, the voice whispered.  A powerful truth indeed...

 

The Cryptic doesn't reveal truth or falsehood about Jasnah's soulcaster.  It only responds that it needs to know something about Shallan.

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I don't think you could get Cryptics to confirm anything that doesn't relate to yourself:

 

 

The Cryptic doesn't reveal truth or falsehood about Jasnah's soulcaster.  It only responds that it needs to know something about Shallan.

 

I love these boards, you guys help me see so many things that I would miss otherwise.  I hadn't noticed that the cryptic was seeking truths about shallan, I thought they were just interested in truth in general.  That changes a bit of my idea about what they are seeking.  

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BS's writing has so many nuances it's impossible for one person to catch them all :)  I think I've read WoK three times fully, and parts of it many more.  I often see new things in the text or remember a detail differently after someone brings up an idea here.  It's a fun exercise in attention to detail.

 

It also gets much easier when you have an ebook on every computer you use lol.  

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