Copper Twinborn

[DSC01 he/him]

What on earth would compounding copper do? Can it even be done? Would it have some kind of weird effect, where it created a genius coppermind (investing it to the point that it became a sort of magical AI)?

Maybe this is how the Lord Ruler's legendary perfect recall worked. I at first assumed that it was just his copperminds, and he always dumped relevant information when he thought he'd need it, giving the illusion of perfect recall. But, of course, that doesn't make much sense.

Now, if compounding copper invested the coppermind such that it would automatically store everything without wiping it from one's own memory and also allow easier access than the typical feruchemical infodump, then that absolutely accounts for the Lord Ruler's alleged super memory.

[natc]

I know we're referring to double copper (as the post itself made clear) but I'd like to point out that the title "copper twinborn" can refer to any of 31 different combinations of metallic arts.

Stronger/clearer memory seems a popular theory, but I'm still a bit bothered by the notion of additional investiture being able to restore details that technically no longer exist in a conscious manner . . .

Edited September 25, 2015 by natc

[Bort he/him]

I doubt compounding copper would do anything. Copper allomancy prevents others from detecting your own allomancy, and copper feruchemy is about storing memories. Although they use the same metals, their effects are completely different.

 

AOL Spoiler

Look at Miles in AoL. He is a gold/gold twinborn, but the two powers do not interact at all because they have so completely different effects.

[DSC01 he/him]

Well, after I posted this, I found a WoB that indicated that double copper might be very interesting. That doesn't sound like extra strong memory, or just nothing, to me. And keep in mind, compounding draws its power source from feruchemy. The allomancy just provides the power boost/multiplier effect. Even with pewter, you have to burn full metalminds, and the stored strength is compounded.

[Moogle]

With Compounding, you get a 'superboost' of the stored attribute. In the case of memories, I would expect to get a super-sharp memory of everything that's ever happened. With a little a bit of maintenance, it seems like you should never forget anything. Imagine being able to view a perfect image of a scene that happened years ago... it'd be pretty handy. Being able to review the exact way a person responded/moved to a question might be a good way to detect lies.

 

If there's no real delay between burning copper and storing memories, you might also be able to experience the world in "HD" as it were, storing things as they happen and burning a moment later.

 

But it's all theoretical for the moment. Something even more whacky might happen.

[Oudeis he/him]

I doubt compounding copper would do anything. Copper allomancy prevents others from detecting your own allomancy, and copper feruchemy is about storing memories. Although they use the same metals, their effects are completely different.

 

 

?? You seem to be talking about... something other than compounding. What Wax does, and I don't think we have a word for it yet, is two powers that don't directly interact, but provide him a synergy from overlapping effects.

 

Compounding, as the OP means it, is when allomancy powers feruchemy; exactly like Miles, in your own example. It isn't about his abilities as an augur affecting his bloodmaker abilities, it's about the intersection of his metallic traits giving him functionally infinite reserves of health. The question then is, what does "infinite memory" mean?

 

Your point is entirely valid, it's simly not germane to the current discussion.

[DSC01 he/him]

See, that's exactly the question: what does infinite memory mean?

While other feruchemical stores are quantities of an attribute like health, weight, etc, copper isn't storing the same kind of thing. It's not memory in general; it's a specific memory. So if you compound a set of information, you're doing it from a coppermind containing a particular, finite memory set. For it to become HD--where is the extra info coming from to do that? The coppermind is a record of your memory of something, not a magical link to the event itself.

That's why I'm so stuck on my magical AI idea. I'm thinking of what the information actually is made of, and I think it's a record of your brain activity as you actively picture the information to store it in copper. So you compound all of that brain activity, and it eventually becomes complex enough to be a brain (of sorts) in its own right.

[Yata he/him]

For it to become HD--where is the extra info coming from to do that? The coppermind is a record of your memory of something, not a magical link to the event itself.

Someone like me think that the "new pieces of information" come from Preservation Knowledge. I'm not sure fi in the books will be in that way but for my interpretation of Compounding this is quite possible.

[DSC01 he/him]

That's the only explanation--that Preservation supplies the extra information. I just don't think that's consistent with how the metallic arts work, otherwise.

[Oudeis he/him]

I just assume burning the coppermind makes the memory perfect in your brain, without degredation. You can keep it in your mind at all times and it won't fade with time. But that's just my thought.

 

Otherwise, even copper wouldn't explain how he can remember literally everyone. He'd have a coppermind storing every person he's ever met, face matched with name, for a thousand years, and every time he has to remember someone, he has to sort through the whole thing? That seems... unlikely.

[Yata he/him]

Otherwise, even copper wouldn't explain how he can remember literally everyone. He'd have a coppermind storing every person he's ever met, face matched with name, for a thousand years, and every time he has to remember someone, he has to sort through the whole thing? That seems... unlikely.

This was an interpretation or maybe Rashek after his Ascension (as a Sliver) had a bit of "cognitive expansion".

[Oudeis he/him]

Why? Vin had no such "cognitive expansion".

 

I suppose he could have the Blessing of Presence...

[Yata he/him]

Why? Vin had no such "cognitive expansion".

 

I suppose he could have the Blessing of Presence...

It was just a supposition.

Anyway vin didn't became a Sliver after the Well (because she didn't use the well and simply drop the power), if you talk about her full Ascension instead she died while she was holding the Shard.

 

About Rashek, he hadn't any Spike, I don't remember if there is a WoB about this but He knew about the Hemalurgyc's weakness.

Edited September 25, 2015 by Yata

[DSC01 he/him]

I don't know why Brandon would say that a copper compounder could do interesting things, if it's just perfect memory. Perfect recall isn't even really doing anything; it's very passive.

[Oudeis he/him]

I personally find a thousand years of perfect recall to be impressive, and the things you can do when you never forget anything are interesting to me.

 

We know Rashek could hear Ruin for a thousand years, so he must've had a hemalurgic spike somewhere.

[ParadoxicalZen he/him]

It was just a supposition.

Anyway vin didn't became a Sliver after the Well (because she didn't use the well and simply drop the power), if you talk about her full Ascension instead she died while she was holding the Shard.

 

About Rashek, he hadn't any Spike, I don't remember if there is a WoB about this but He knew about the Hemalurgyc's weakness.

 

Why? Vin had no such "cognitive expansion".

 

I suppose he could have the Blessing of Presence...

 

Actually, Vin did become a Sliver, she just didn't gain any expansion as she gave up the power instead of using it probably.

 

 

Interview: Jan 18th, 2010

Goodreads Fantasy Book Discussion Warbreaker Q&A (Verbatim)

zas678

Also, would the Elantrians and the Lerasium-mistings be considered Slivers? Or is just the Lord Ruler and Vin Slivers (Via the Well)? Or do you need more power to be considered a Sliver?

Brandon Sanderson (Goodreads)

Elantrians are not slivers. Mistborn trilogy spoiler warnings follow! The Lord Ruler was indeed a Sliver. So was Vin. For the rest, I would say probably not.

What defines an actual Sliver of Adonalsium is not as clear-cut as you might think. It's a term that in-universe people who study this have applied to various existences and states. Every single person on the world of Scadrial has a bit of Leras in them—a bit of the power of Preservation. Every single person has a bit of Ati in them. There's a certain threshold where these scholars would call you a Sliver of Adonalsium. But I would say that any regular Misting is probably not a Sliver. A full Lerasium Mistborn is getting closer, but people who have held one of the powers are what would probably be termed a Sliver by the definitions. If you hold all the power that makes you a Shard, but the Lord Ruler held a little bit of it and then let it go. From then on they referred to that change in him—the residue, what was left—as a Sliver. When he held it he became the Shard for a short time, and Vin was a Shard for a short time. After Vin gave up the power, what Kelsier is at the end of the trilogy—that's a Sliver of Adonalsium.

 

 

Interview: Mar 19th, 2011

Vericon Report - Puck (Paraphrased)

Puck

"Is the definition of Sliver: Someone who has held a large part of the raw form of a Shard temporarily?"

Brandon Sanderson

"That is it"

 

I've found a WoB/Mistborn annotation that may help shed some light.

 

 

Interview: Jul 29th, 2006

Mistborn: The Final Empire Annotations (Verbatim)

 

 

Brandon Sanderson

We mention the Lord Ruler's flawless memory here. This is actually the only time in the entire series that it's mentioned. However, this is an important clue for later. However, as I'm writing this, without being able to hide this text, I don't want to explain too much and inadvertently ruin something. However, if you've finished the book, you might be able to figure out why the Lord Ruler might have a reputation for being able to remember things.

Footnote

Namely, it's because he's a Feruchemist and so can store memories in Copperminds.

 

 

Note Brandon uses flawless to describe the memory, so it is possible that compounding just increases the quality of the memory to such a point that it could have happened a moment ago or perhaps even to an eidetic level

Edited September 25, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[Oudeis he/him]

Note Brandon uses flawless to describe the memory, so it is possible that compounding just increases the quality of the memory to such a point that it could have happened a moment ago or perhaps even to an eidetic level

 

But that doesn't matter. No matter how perfect a memory is in a coppermind, it's still in the coppermind. That means he'd still have to sort it through all the faces he's seen in the past thousand years. Even if he sorts it to the two or three thousand faces he might potentially see on a given night, that's a ton of faces. He can't restrict it just to the people invited to a party, or the people likely to come to a party, the legends are created on the days he remembers someone he could not possibly have known would show up that day. Remember, these people are, themselves, grifters. They live by playing a party and pretending they know more than they know. They're familiar with all the tricks, all the times someone pretends to remember someone while letting the mark lead them to the right answers. They would know if the Lord Ruler were faking it, and the idea that he sorts through and compares a face to several thousand in his copperminds is ludicrous. I think compounding copper must give you the ability to recall a memory perfectly, forever, without it degrading, in your own mind.

[DreamEternal]

Perhaps compounding cooper creates a "copy" of the memory for the purposes of feruchemy. This way everytime he felt he forgot something he could draw a better preserved memory from his metalmind and store it back, keeping its copy in his head.

[Bort he/him]

?? You seem to be talking about... something other than compounding. What Wax does, and I don't think we have a word for it yet, is two powers that don't directly interact, but provide him a synergy from overlapping effects.

 

Compounding, as the OP means it, is when allomancy powers feruchemy; exactly like Miles, in your own example. It isn't about his abilities as an augur affecting his bloodmaker abilities, it's about the intersection of his metallic traits giving him functionally infinite reserves of health. The question then is, what does "infinite memory" mean?

 

Your point is entirely valid, it's simly not germane to the current discussion.

 

Yeah, I realised after I had posted. I was thinking of compounding the wrong way, how allomantic copper won't do anything for storing memories.

[bluepotion he/him]

It might also be good to note that the Lord Ruler is also able to compound zinc, giving himself infinite mental speed. This could help led to his perfect memory in combination with his copper.

Edited September 28, 2015 by bluepotion

[Cadmium he/him]

We know Rashek could hear Ruin for a thousand years, so he must've had a hemalurgic spike somewhere.

His metalminds were shoved into his skin. It's possible that they pierced the spiritweb enough to allow Ruin's influence.

[Divine0Flame he/him]

I was thinking that something similar to when Elend burned autium and duralumin. He became hyper aware of everything and a large amount of information was pushed into his mind. If one were to compound copper, by my own reckoning, one would become omniscient.

[Voidus]

His metalminds were shoved into his skin. It's possible that they pierced the spiritweb enough to allow Ruin's influence.

Yeah there's a WoB that his metalminds were his spikes.

 

 

I was thinking that something similar to when Elend burned autium and duralumin. He became hyper aware of everything and a large amount of information was pushed into his mind. If one were to compound copper, by my own reckoning, one would become omniscient.

Not sure about that, Elend experienced the spiritual realm directly to do that, Coppers pretty much entirely cognitive plus it's only your own memories, not sure how extra information could be pushed into them like that.

[Eagle of the Forest Path he/him]

Not sure about that, Elend experienced the spiritual realm directly to do that, Coppers pretty much entirely cognitive plus it's only your own memories, not sure how extra information could be pushed into them like that.

 

Normal Copper's indeed entirely cognitive, but if you're compounding it with Allomancy, the memories would (should?) be supplied by the power of Preservation, which is mainly located in the spiritual realm IIRC.

[hoidhunter he/him]

 

Maybe Compounding copper and then restoring the resulting memory generates a coppermind that cannot be manipulated by Ruin...I think maybe Brandon gave us a hint there..."However, as I'm writing this, without being able to hide this text, I don't want to explain too much and inadvertently ruin something."