Elhokar, Possible Radiant?

[Seana]

While reading WoK and WoR I noticed something really exciting: Elhokar sees the shadow of at least one Cryptic following him. He complains about it when talking about his fear of being assassinated, offhandedly saying "I see them in the shadows... Swirling symbols." (I'll find the exact quote a little bit later, but those are the important parts. If someone else wants to find and post the quote feel free!)

Thoughts? Theories?

[Baine]

While I think that Elhokar is on his way to becoming a Radiant, I don't have a good feeling about those spren. They seem to bring out a worse side of Elhokar, and  I think they are deliberately feeding his paranoia. They disappeared when Kaladin arrives, and Kaladin is one of the most hero-y characters in the book.

 

So, Yes, I think Elhokar will be a Radiant, but those spren are giving off some seriously bad vibes, dude.

[Ari]

While reading WoK and WoR I noticed something really exciting: Elhokar sees the shadow of at least one Cryptic following him. He complains about it when talking about his fear of being assassinated, offhandedly saying "I see them in the shadows... Swirling symbols." (I'll find the exact quote a little bit later, but those are the important parts. If someone else wants to find and post the quote feel free!)

Thoughts? Theories?

 

It seems likely that at the very least he can see Spren. Given he's neither a Horneater or a Herdazian, he probably doesn't have the genetics to see them as a matter of course, and it does sound suspiciously like what Shallan saw when she first reunited with Pattern, so tentatively I'd agree that Elhokar may in fact be a potential Lightweaver, or that he has some other sort of unknown magic going on that allows him to see Cryptic spren.

[Seana]

Baine: Well, Pattern was pretty creepy before he turned out to be Shallan's spren...

Ari: You might be onto something. Though, we don't exactly know how far Brandon's going to go with a Shardworld of three Splinters. Cultivation's power hasn't really been seen like Odium and Honor's... Maybe!

[Seana]

Oooh, or the Old Magic. We still don't know much about that.

[Seana]

While I think that Elhokar is on his way to becoming a Radiant, I don't have a good feeling about those spren. They seem to bring out a worse side of Elhokar, and I think they are deliberately feeding his paranoia. They disappeared when Kaladin arrives, and Kaladin is one of the most hero-y characters in the book.

So, Yes, I think Elhokar will be a Radiant, but those spren are giving off some seriously bad vibes, dude.

Perhaps the Cryptic's were trying to prevent Elohkar's bonding from happening!

[Ari]

Baine: Well, Pattern was pretty creepy before he turned out to be Shallan's spren...

Ari: You might be onto something. Though, we don't exactly know how far Brandon's going to go with a Shardworld of three Splinters. Cultivation's power hasn't really been seen like Odium and Honor's... Maybe!

 

I'm keeping my mind open on Elhokar. On the one hand, maybe being thrust into this role as King has done him some severe mental trauma that has driven him into paranoia and cracked his spirit sufficiently for the Knight Radiant bond to start forming.

 

On the other hand... paranoia and possibly faking assassination attempts against you (although at least some have been real) does not strike me as behaviour many orders of Radiant would encourage, so I'm unsure whether he fits within the definition of what the Lightweavers would want for their Radiants. And he started seeing Spren before Shallan reconnected with Pattern, so I'd say it's not likely he's one of her auxilliaries the way it may be that for instance Lopen could be one of Kaladin's.

 

I'm not as wary as Baine, as he seems to be worried there might be some sort of Voidbinding going on, but I am open to the fact that this could be something specifically of Cultivation, or it could simply be a magical ability that we haven't heard about yet that is unrelated to either the KR or to Odium or Cultivation specifically, similar to Feruchemy on Scadrial.

 

Oh, and btw: If you want to add additional thoughts to the thread and nobody else has replied, you may want to press "edit" on your previous post instead of replying again.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Ari

[Yata]

When I read the Dialogue between the King and Kal about the "shadows and symbols" I thought that Elhokar is bonding with a Cryptic but this Cryptic would avoid our pretty Honorspren.

 

We know that Honorspren and Cryptic are not in good relationship

[SweetLift]

He does mention to Kal that when he arrived the shadows disappeared. I am not sure that these are what they appear to be, meaning that they don't seem to be as well intentioned as Pattern. Or perhaps Elhokar is just too scared to get past their strangeness...I think he wants so badly to be better as he states inWoR. I hope he can manage it!

Edited September 23, 2015 by SweetLift

[Oudeis]

In the future, if you do a search within this forum for terms like "elhokar", "radiant", "cryptic", you'd've found that this possibility has been pretty well covered already, and you could have joined one of those conversations instead of starting a new one.

[Seana]

Opps. I did look for this topic, but I'm also pretty new to the forums and how they work, :/ sorry I missed those before.

[maxal]

As Oudeis pointed out, this conversation pops back every now and then. Some subjects just never die and keep on being actual with the flock of newcomers.

 

For my part, I would refrain from stating "Elhokar is on his way to" or "Elhokar will" as we have no idea where Elhokar is going, providing he is going somewhere.

 

Whereas Elhokar did see sprens akin to Cryptics (we have never gotten the confirmation they indeed were Cryptics) in his mirror, it does not mean he is on his way to become a Radiant. He behaves very differently than the Radiants we do have on hand and whereas we can't draw large scale conclusions based on a few individuals, we can have a sense pertaining the "traditional" path to Radianhood. In all cases we have seen, the individual is not only broken/cracked, he is also exhibiting strong attributes which leads him to behave in a proper way for unselfish reasons. For instance, Shallan, our main Lightweaver, strove to create new lies for her family so they would all feel better. She may be conniving, sneaky and dishonest, she still tries her best for those she cares about, namely her family. Elhokar has yet to lift one finger to help other, to better the world for those around him. In all his scenes, he comes across as self-centered, even in his little talk to Kaladin, his main concern was how he was perceived and how to be a good king: not because he care for his people, but because he care about who he is. Kaladin too is self-centered, but he forgets it all to protect those he sees as his "crew". 

 

People will argue faking an assassination attempt is a trial at creating a lie, akin to Shallan. Yes and no. Yes because it was a lie, no because this lie only served his own benefit while Shallan made hers for others or for other purposes than having people believe. All in all, Elhokar wanted Dalinar to take his word, so he forced him to do so by acting drastically. He did it for him. Always for him.

 

So basically, yes Elhokar sees unidentified sprens akin to Cryptics in his mirror and yes he is likely cracked enough to receive a Nahel bond, but he does not behave like a Radiant. He is too self-centered and is too keen on seeing his self interest before that of others. We could dispute at length if Radiants are allowed to be selfish or not. We could discuss at another length if a piece of scum can become a Radiant, if the oaths precludes it, if Elhokar can true to himself and be a Lightweaver even if he is the most egocentric character we have met, but we don't have these data. We have to rely on the character we do have and make up our own idea.

 

I would conclude by saying we have to be careful to yell Radiant each time a character is "broken". Being "broken" is the least of the requirements to be chosen by a spren. I would also say there are countless of reasons as to why Cryptics or other sprens may want to spy onto the weak king of a powerful nation on the eve of a Desolation. Just saying.

[Baine]

Ari: I don't think that Elhokar's  spren are voidbinders, necessarily; I think they may just be an anti-KR faction of spren.

 

And Maxal, I disagree about Elhokar being only concerned about his image. Yes, he cares too much about public opinion, but, to quote Kaladin, he really is trying to be a good king. He's just bad at it. I don't think there's a contradiction between the two.

 

I think that he has the opportunity to become a Radiant. He's nowhere near it yet. But if he changes for the better (and I think he can), he definately will be.

[maxal]

Ari: I don't think that Elhokar's  spren are voidbinders, necessarily; I think they may just be an anti-KR faction of spren.

 

And Maxal, I disagree about Elhokar being only concerned about his image. Yes, he cares too much about public opinion, but, to quote Kaladin, he really is trying to be a good king. He's just bad at it. I don't think there's a contradiction between the two.

 

I think that he has the opportunity to become a Radiant. He's nowhere near it yet. But if he changes for the better (and I think he can), he definately will be.

 

Elhokar does not want to be a good king for the shake of his people, but for himself. Not once has he ever uttered feelings pertaining those he has wronged. He does not care about his subjects, but he cares about being the worthy heir of Galivar Kholin.

 

Intent is what matters, I believe and Elhokar intents, based on the examples at hand, are not right for a Radiant.

 

That being said, I doubt whatever happen to Elhokar will be major. He is not a POV character and I somehow doubt he'll become one of those minor KR Brandon talked about. 

 

Edit: Elhokar's importance to the plot is that he serves to expunge Dalinar's guilt following his brother's death. Because of it, he dots on Elhokar, forgiving him every wrong while pulling on the harsh line with his own son. I suspect his relevance will tackle Dalinar's growth where he'll be forced to remove hid googles when it comes to his nephew and do what he should have done years ago.

Edited September 23, 2015 by maxal

[Yata]

I can agree with the Maxal view but there are some things that we could miss it.

 

We could be "wrong" about the idea of KR as "extreme good boyscout", They fighted for Honor aganist the Voidbringer but they was an mixed group (also within the same order) probably.

 

The Lightweave Order could be the more heterogeneous, his members are choosen by the Cryptics to begin a path of Introspection (through the Truth), they are probably the most changed during their "journey before destination".

 

Therefore the choice of the Second Greatest King of Fantasy (The First was Joffrey Baratheon of course  ) as a Lightweave could be a try to "Fix" one of the Authoritys of Roshar. 

Without talk about of the "image" of the KR in the World, when the King of the powerfull kingdom of Roshar shows himself as a KR. Could be also a "Political choice".

[maxal]

I can agree with the Maxal view but there are some things that we could miss it.

 

We could be "wrong" about the idea of KR as "extreme good boyscout", They fighted for Honor aganist the Voidbringer but they was an mixed group (also within the same order) probably.

 

The Lightweave Order could be the more heterogeneous, his members are choosen by the Cryptics to begin a path of Introspection (through the Truth), they are probably the most changed during their "journey before destination".

 

Therefore the choice of the Second Greatest King of Fantasy (The First was Joffrey Baratheon of course  ) as a Lightweave could be a try to "Fix" one of the Authoritys of Roshar. 

Without talk about of the "image" of the KR in the World, when the King of the powerfull kingdom of Roshar shows himself as a KR. Could be also a "Political choice".

 

Yes, I agree we could be wrong, which is why I stated we had to be careful. We are drawing large scale conclusions based on a few individuals. We could be horribly wrong. 

 

There are, of course, reasons to choose Elhokar outside his apparent lack of capacities. However, it seems as if the sprens are taking a huge gamble when they start the bonding process. If the proto-knight fails to pull through, they die. In that optic, it seems unlikely the Cryptics would take a chance on Elhokar, not after the near failure of the "Shallan experiment". 

[ParadoxicalZen]

 

Interview: Mar 21st, 2014

WOR Signing Table Q&A (Verbatim)

Question

When does a person become a Surgebinder? Because Kaladin talks about when he was a child, about it being a familiar feeling, and Shallan obviously was younger. Or is it when they speak the Words?

Brandon Sanderson

The bond starts forming before the words are spoken, but if the words are never spoken that bond will eventually evaporate and get broken. But the bond will start forming before. Just like an emotion attracts a spren, acting in the way that the spren you would eventually bond will start drawing them toward you and that will start to create that bond.

 

 

My guess is something like this;

 

Elhokar's paranoia managed to get everyone believing that he was going to be assassinated, or that someone wanted him dead. This extravagant lie either attracted the (presumed) Cryptics to an extent where they considered him for possible Radiancy but were scared off by Kal and Syl or that they just didn't find him worthy enough.

[DreamEternal]

Eh, I just interpretated them as voidspren(anyone noticed the shadows in his eyes in WoK? The way he looks at Dalinar once is described like the way Lin looks at Shallan after Helaran almost kills him.) that got scared away after the sudden outburst of Radiants around him.

This also aligns with him telling Kaladin he scared the shadows away during his "I'll become better" speech.

[maxal]

My guess is something like this;

 

Elhokar's paranoia managed to get everyone believing that he was going to be assassinated, or that someone wanted him dead. This extravagant lie either attracted the (presumed) Cryptics to an extent where they considered him for possible Radiancy but were scared off by Kal and Syl or that they just didn't find him worthy enough.

 

It has been one of my theories regarding Elhokar and his "symbol heads the mirror" sprens... I certainly agree it could indeed be the case.

[Ari]

Eh, I just interpretated them as voidspren(anyone noticed the shadows in his eyes in WoK? The way he looks at Dalinar once is described like the way Lin looks at Shallan after Helaran almost kills him.) that got scared away after the sudden outburst of Radiants around him.

This also aligns with him telling Kaladin he scared the shadows away during his "I'll become better" speech.

 

That's an option too, not as extreme as him developing voidbinding capabilities, but given his position of influence even if he lacks personal influence himself, Odium's forces would be pretty keen to manipulate Elhokar. If they have a way of turning people towards hatred in general or souring their specific relationships, Elhokar would be a great person to start with, and it could be that part of this process makes the relevant Spren visible. Maybe Elhokar's description is purposely vague enough that we're not supposed to be able to put it together.

 

But yeah, I have to say I'm not fully convinced by any of the options at this point.

[maxal]

That's an option too, not as extreme as him developing voidbinding capabilities, but given his position of influence even if he lacks personal influence himself, Odium's forces would be pretty keen to manipulate Elhokar. If they have a way of turning people towards hatred in general or souring their specific relationships, Elhokar would be a great person to start with, and it could be that part of this process makes the relevant Spren visible. Maybe Elhokar's description is purposely vague enough that we're not supposed to be able to put it together.

 

But yeah, I have to say I'm not fully convinced by any of the options at this point.

 

Elhokar strikes to me as a character who is over-ridden by his weaknesses, quite the opposite of a Radiant who would be ruled by his strengths. It is not he does not have any, he just chooses to focus on the negative. He also is ambitious, wanting to be a great king as his father once was, which is the perfect recipe to strike deal to obtain this respect, without having to work for it. 

 

Odium, I suspect, may be looking for those he could easily influenced. Elhokar seems to be the type. Whatever will-power he has does not look strong. He is not a bad person, he means well, but he is willing to try any possible ploy to achieve his end game which is reconnaissance. 

 

We could also say Renarin is quite the same in his endeavor to become a soldier... He is willing to try anything... but this is not a popular thing to state. A very dangerous one, but if we want to think outside the box, it could see that one as a possibility... In any advent, it is a much better one than the classic "Adolin will become evil". 

 

As for Elhokar, I agree we can't conclude anything as of yet. However, of all possibilities, him becoming a Radiants strikes to me as the most unlikely. I guess book 3 will prove me either right or wrong.

[DreamEternal]

I must clarify I do not think Elhokar will become evil. I believe he is actualy managing to escape Odium's influence, and think his ambition can be used for good purposes.

And Renarin going evil is not better or more interesting than Adolin going evil. The only thing pointing towards that would be his desire to prove himself, and I think that is not what Odium uses to influence people.

The way you(Maxal) speak makes it sound like people would strike deals with the god of hatred and help destroy the world for some temporaly fulfillement. The only character in SA who I believe was selfish enough for this was killed by Adolin in a fit of rage.

We should look at the character we know was under Odium's influence: Lin Davar. He didn't make a deal with Odium. He didn't knowvwhat was happening to him. But Odium rioted his fear and fury, closed his eyes to the truth and thrusted him into a world where the only way to protect his daughter was being as powerful and feared as possible. Doens't sound like Renarin.

I believe Odium attacked Elhokar using his fear of assassins. The times he screws up trying to be respected are just incompetence mixed with fear of showing weakness.

EDIT: I hope I didn't come as agressive. It is just that I hate the idea that simply having ambition is a sign that a character may go evil.

Edited September 27, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern

[ParadoxicalZen]

Nah, I don't believe he'll be 'evil'/Odium influenced too much. Despite his age, his mentality to me is still much that of a spoilt child/teen who is easily led and over-emotional but actually has well-meaning intentions. He's just striving to be like is dad but it appears Galivar hardly trained him to the point that he'd be competent /politically savvy enough to rule effectively (whereas Jasnah could be argued contrarily).  He dreams of the Destination but does not consider or understand the prerequisite knowledge/information (Journey) required to get there.

Edited September 27, 2015 by ParadoxSpren

[maxal]

I must clarify I do not think Elhokar will become evil. I believe he is actualy managing to escape Odium's influence, and think his ambition can be used for good purposes.

And Renarin going evil is not better or more interesting than Adolin going evil. The only thing pointing towards that would be his desire to prove himself, and I think that is not what Odium uses to influence people.

The way you(Maxal) speak makes it sound like people would strike deals with the god of hatred and help destroy the world for some temporaly fulfillement. The only character in SA who I believe was selfish enough for this was killed by Adolin in a fit of rage.

We should look at the character we know was under Odium's influence: Lin Davar. He didn't make a deal with Odium. He didn't knowvwhat was happening to him. But Odium rioted his fear and fury, closed his eyes to the truth and thrusted him into a world where the only way to protect his daughter was being as powerful and feared as possible. Doens't sound like Renarin.

I believe Odium attacked Elhokar using his fear of assassins. The times he screws up trying to be respected are just incompetence mixed with fear of showing weakness.

EDIT: I hope I didn't come as agressive. It is just that I hate the idea that simply having ambition is a sign that a character may go evil.

 

Oh you did not come out as aggressive, so fear not. I understand your point. I may have been guilty of using an old trope wanting ambition to be evil, which alternatively is often depicted as such. However, I do believe Odium is taping into an individual's weaknesses, he makes them grow beyond proportions until they consume him. For this to work out well, the weaknesses must not be overly balanced by strengths. 

 

So far, I have not seen what strength could balance Elhokar out, but I could be wrong. It is not as if we have spend much time with him to begin with. All our guesses are wild at best, though I agree seeing ambitious characters use it for good is an interesting twist on an old trope.

 

As for Renarin going evil, I believe it is more interesting than Adolin going evil because it is unexpected. Everyone expects Adolin to strike a deal with Odium or to end up consumed by hate due to his killing of Sadeas, but nobody expects the shy, awkward, low self-esteemed, nearly erased kid to do it... Let's throw a punch in the air: what proof do we have Renarin truly is a Truthwatcher? He said it. Period. What if Glys is not what we think? What if he is being manipulated? What if he isn't a Radiant? Now I don't really believe these are true, but just asking the questions can lead to interesting perspective, even if unpopular ones.

[DreamEternal]

Well, but you aren't really exploring new ideas as much as unintentionaly returning to the old notions that ambition is evil and loners are to be feared. It would have to be very well executed in order to not pass that kind of idea.

Adolin going too far to protect his family(but not striking a deal with Odium) wouldn't have that risk, instead being a rarely seem lesson of how puting those you love above everything else can be dangerous.

Not that I think he will go evil, just that Odium will do his best to make it happen, and that there is a real danger it may happen. Of course, if our only extroverted party-going main character goes evil it will also have some unfortunate implications.

Edited September 27, 2015 by CognitivePulsePattern