Stormlight and fGold: Steelhunt Edition

[Ethrien he/him]

My thoughts were that since the body is using stormlight like it would use air, it would store it like air. Contain it in the lungs and filter it into the blood as needed.There is plenty of lines of description in the book comparing stormlight to blood or as being power injected into veins, however it is all similes, not really great evidence to build upon.

 

You also make some very good points, even if stormlight is replacing the chemical reactions there is no need for it to be stored in the lungs to do so. The reason stormlight comes out Kaladin's mouth could well be because its the biggest hole in the container. The same logic could be extended to the eyes, they're holes in the skin where stormlight might escape faster and therefore would be more concentrated.

 

@paperclip we've got WoB that when magic systems get very similar they tend to function in similar ways. So we know that Stormlight healing and ReGrowth will each probably function on the same base principle as one of the two, just don't know which.

 

"...because with the unifying theory of magic there's a certain number of things that magic can do, and there's a lot of different ones, but when they get similar they tend to work in the same way." - Source

Edited November 8, 2013 by Ethrien

[askthepaperclip he/him]

Ah, excellent explanation! Yes, I remember that quote now. It is still a little too esoteric for my theorizing tastes, but carry on! :-D

[The Rooster he/him]

I think if he refrained from using stormlight for long enough the tattoo would stick. It's not like spotlight its getting rid if his slave brand scar. His body knows the ink it's foreign so it heals.. Forcing out the ink. If he let it sit for a week without using stormlight it would stay I bet.

[Moogle]

I think if he refrained from using stormlight for long enough the tattoo would stick. It's not like spotlight its getting rid if his slave brand scar. His body knows the ink it's foreign so it heals.. Forcing out the ink. If he let it sit for a week without using stormlight it would stay I bet.

 

Funnily enough, I don't think he could manage to go a week without Stormlight now. But yes, I agree with the theory: after a week, he'd get used to the ink, and think it was a part of him (and thus a part of his 'ideal Cognitive body') so he wouldn't push out the ink.

 

Kaladin is going to be so depressed during The Weeping. I am almost getting a sadistic joy from the thought.

[bartbug he/him]

Ooh, yeah that's going to be an interesting chapter. But what I want to see more is how he reacts to the mega highstorm opposite it in the year.

[Argent he/him]

The "mega highstorm" is that highstorm that happens right in the middle of the Weeping. Just clarifying.

[WeiryWriter he/him]

Ooh, yeah that's going to be an interesting chapter. But what I want to see more is how he reacts to the mega highstorm opposite it in the year.

 

The "mega highstorm" is that highstorm that happens right in the middle of the Weeping. Just clarifying.

 

Actually bartbug is not referring to the mid-Weeping highstorm.  Brandon has stated that opposite in the year from the Weeping is a massively powerful highstorm. (think winter vs. summer solstice on earth)

[Argent he/him]

Confounded by context. My apologies.

[marianmi]

Funnily enough, I don't think he could manage to go a week without Stormlight now. But yes, I agree with the theory: after a week, he'd get used to the ink, and think it was a part of him (and thus a part of his 'ideal Cognitive body') so he wouldn't push out the ink.

 

 

Well, if you want to explain the ink loss with "ideal Cognitive body", go ahead. But I find the explanation is easy: getting the tatoo is basically piercing his skin, putting ink, and then letting the skin grow over the ink. With stormlight, he heals the piercing of his skin -- his skin is regenerated/grows from "under" the tatoo. Letting his tatoo heal naturally, w/o stormlight, would let him keep the tatoo afterwards, even when holding stormlight.

 

(This looks to be me like it's not pewter-like, but it does not mean it's like gold. Unless you want to stretch it and say that natural healing = setting ideal cognitive body. But I don't think so. Getting cut by Shardblade has the same effect on him as on any other person. Stormlight would not heal that, and actually I bet Feruchemical gold won't heal that as well -- let's say Shardblade cuts through Cognitive as well).

Edited November 10, 2013 by marianmi

[Moogle]

Well, if you want to explain the ink loss with "ideal Cognitive body", go ahead. But I find the explanation is easy: getting the tatoo is basically piercing his skin, putting ink, and then letting the skin grow over the ink. With stormlight, he heals the piercing of his skin -- his skin is regenerated/grows from "under" the tatoo. Letting his tatoo heal naturally, w/o stormlight, would let him keep the tatoo afterwards, even when holding stormlight.

 

But the point of tattooing is that you put the ink underneath where the skin can grow from 'under' the tattoo. Accelerated healing would not push out a regular tattoo. Superman could get one, if they could find a way to get the needle to pierce the skin.

[marianmi]

But the point of tattooing is that you put the ink underneath where the skin can grow from 'under' the tattoo. Accelerated healing would not push out a regular tattoo. Superman could get one, if they could find a way to get the needle to pierce the skin.

 

Yes - that's why I said it does not look like pewter. But this does not mean it's gold. 

[Robot Aztec]

And STeelInquisitors all have godl and they all have tats

[marianmi]

And STeelInquisitors all have godl and they all have tats

 

This made me smile. All that gold, and still have tats. Darn.

[Unknowingly he/him]

Guys I think it is evident that when it comes to healing there are two extremes in the cosmere, these are 'healing your current injury at accelerated speeds and taking you to your current ideal cognitive aspect' and the other is 'healing your current injury by changing your cognitive aspect'. In the first one if you lose an arm you will be able to heal the new stump you have. In the second one you will be able to regtow your arm and while you're at it make it better than your old one. Then there is everything in between and when you are on the spectrum between these two you get a mixture.

The spectrum to me looks a little like this:

Forgery; Elantris symbols; Feruchemical gold; Stormlight; Allomantic pewter; Regrowth

Note: I'm busy right now and my thoughts are a little crazy. So please feel free to Improve/disagree/expand/do whatever you want to my theory.

[Kurkistan he/him]

Guys I think it is evident that when it comes to healing there are two extremes in the cosmere, these are 'healing your current injury at accelerated speeds and taking you to your current ideal cognitive aspect' and the other is 'healing your current injury by changing your cognitive aspect'. In the first one if you lose an arm you will be able to heal the new stump you have. In the second one you will be able to regtow your arm and while you're at it make it better than your old one. Then there is everything in between and when you are on the spectrum between these two you get a mixture.

The spectrum to me looks a little like this:

Forgery; Elantris symbols; Feruchemical gold; Stormlight; Allomantic pewter; Regrowth

Note: I'm busy right now and my thoughts are a little crazy. So please feel free to Improve/disagree/expand/do whatever you want to my theory.

 

I don't particularly think it's a spectrum, and if it was I think you're still doing it wrong.

 

First, your first category is rather odd. I can totally see you saying 'healing your current injury at accelerated speeds" and just stopping there, but then you peg on the Cognitive (also, I am leery of this talk of "ideals" in the Cognitive, not sure where that one came from, as it's all about perceptions more than "idealization") on top of it.

 

Then you go to the other end and talk about changing Cognitive aspects, which I really don't see any justification for in this case. The Cognitive aspect you have is what lets you grow an arm back, not what's stopping you.

 

Whats more, I think that Darnam was right to establish a strict divide between these types of healing, rather than allowing for a "spectrum". If one gets you a replacement hand and the other gives you a stump, there's not much middle ground to be had.

 

---

 

On the topic of a middle ground not existing, I would suggest that there are really at least 4 rather distinct types of healing that we've seen.

 

We have those that just accelerate normal heaing( Allomantic pewter, stormlight infusion (?)), those that return people to their normal Cognitive aspects (Feruchemical gold, Regrowth, permanent Resealing, at least some types of AonDor).

 

Those two are the normal categories. However, there are at least two more magics to consider: temporary Resealing seems to temporarily change Cognitive aspects, while Divine Breath goes above and beyond the call in its healing (such as giving Susebron his tongue back and speech). There's also the possibility that some types of Aonic healing do some shenanigans with the Cognitive or just brute-force through Physical changes without consulting the Cognitive.

[Gloom he/him]

I think that Connor may have had a point even if his theory was unsound. The premise was that Stromlight healing doesn't fit into the pat little system of Feruchemical gold or Allomantic pewter. Neither does the healing system Endowment uses. I understand that you are using a quote from Brandon to justify this claim that every healing system relies on the Cognitive aspect of the person being healed to effect that healing, but I'm certain that this will be proven false, or at least have a broader definition than what has become accepted. I believe that Regrowth will be far more effective than the Scadrian equivalent because the intent of the Shards on Scadrial are end neutral or end negative. Preservation is end neutral. It seeks to preserve, to maintain, to stagnate. Ruin is end negative, to bring everything to an entropic state of nothingness.

 

Honor and Cultivation are end positive. Cultivation is about growth and renewal. Honor is about higher ideals that make society a better place. To claim that Shardic intent has no effect is like saying that our intent has no effect on how we use nuclear energy. But our intent does matter when it comes to nuclear energy. We have a choice, we can use it to benefit society, or we can weaponize it. I find it highly unlikely that a being, or a pair of beings in this case, that can create life can't fix hereditary diseases or birth defects should they wish to. Healing magic may indeed conform to a set of overall rules in the Cosmere, but those rules are bound to be broader than the few examples that we have seen to date.

[Unknowingly he/him]

I see your point Kurk but I do still believe that there is a shred of truth to be found in my theory. I know it is very flawed (I am also having trouble putting my thought process into words). I don't like my definitions of the magic healings either

I think Gloom is right in saying that we just simply don't have enough information at the moment, but thats also the point of our (almost)baseless theorizing

[Kurkistan he/him]

I think that Connor may have had a point even if his theory was unsound. The premise was that Stromlight healing doesn't fit into the pat little system of Feruchemical gold or Allomantic pewter. Neither does the healing system Endowment uses. I understand that you are using a quote from Brandon to justify this claim that every healing system relies on the Cognitive aspect of the person being healed to effect that healing, but I'm certain that this will be proven false, or at least have a broader definition than what has become accepted.

Sorry, but who is "you" here?

 

I don't think that anyone's been claiming that all healing systems have to match up exactly with either Allomantic pewter or Feruchemical gold, but simply that the two work in fundamentally different ways and that establishing lose categories based on that functionality is useful.

 

Allomantic pewter won't grow back an arm, ever. Feruchemical gold will; so would a Divine Breath. We can try and sketch out the differences in exactly how the different magics on the "Feruchemical gold-side" go about interacting with various Aspects, but the end result is that Feruchemical gold & Co. seem to "heal" the body towards the goal of attaining some target state, while Allomantic pewter (& Co.?) just does normal healing on steroids.

 

Brandon didn't say all healing system relies on Cognitive aspects, and I don't think anyone's saying that he did. He did say "a lot", however, and the way he described it and his motivations behind the limitation (not having societies of perfectly healthy people) heavily suggests restrictions/guidance from Cognitive aspects as the rule, not the exception.

 

I believe that Regrowth will be far more effective than the Scadrian equivalent because the intent of the Shards on Scadrial are end neutral or end negative. Preservation is end neutral. It seeks to preserve, to maintain, to stagnate. Ruin is end negative, to bring everything to an entropic state of nothingness.

Honor and Cultivation are end positive. Cultivation is about growth and renewal. Honor is about higher ideals that make society a better place. To claim that Shardic intent has no effect is like saying that our intent has no effect on how we use nuclear energy. But our intent does matter when it comes to nuclear energy. We have a choice, we can use it to benefit society, or we can weaponize it. I find it highly unlikely that a being, or a pair of beings in this case, that can create life can't fix hereditary diseases or birth defects should they wish to. Healing magic may indeed conform to a set of overall rules in the Cosmere, but those rules are bound to be broader than the few examples that we have seen to date.

 

I also categorically reject the notion of Shards being "end-neutral" or "end-positive". That's rather binary (okay, trinary, but you get it). Intents (which cannot be so easily categorized) deal with the acquisition of magic, not its function, which would rather strongly suggest that a certain amount of separation between the Shards and their magics.

 

So yes, I am saying that the Shards' Intents have no effect on how their magic works.

 

I also refer you back to the "avoid societies of perfect people" point above, so far as curing all ills goes.

 

@Connor

 

Okay, I'll await your thoughts when they're more sorted out.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Kurkistan

[Gloom he/him]

We'll agree to disagree. From what I see your interpretation of Cosmere wide healing rules wouldn't allow for Renarin to be healed of his blood weakness correct? Or for Kaladin to have his brands healed? Because it seems like your talking in circles to me Kurkistan. I can't actually pin down what you actually think about healing. All I get is that you shoot down anything that doesn't conform to this Feruchemical gold/Allomantic pewter formula.

 

As far as Shardic intent goes, I don't see how you can argue that a Shard has no bearing on that Shards magic system. This is like saying that a Shard can create life, but has no bearing on what form that life takes, which is not the case. I find it implausible that a Shard has no influence on the magic system that is created when they invest themselves in a planet, I find the entire idea ridiculous.

 

I don't hold Brandon to every word spoken in every interview. I believe that he will stick to the spirit of what was said, but I don't hold anything that isn't in a book as cannon because Brandon has repeatedly told us not to. A healing system can be much more robust than you seem to believe without leading to a society of perfect people that never get sick, old, or die.

Edited November 11, 2013 by Gloom

[marianmi]

I mostly agree with Kurkistan on several points.

 

* Intents do deal with the acquisition of investiture that allows you to tap the magic from the spiritual realm. E.g. if you do this thing (where "thing" is based on the intent of the shard), the shard will give you a battery. It's up to you what you power the battery with. Nobody stopped the steel inquisitors (when not controlled by ruin) to be nice guys.

 

* Healing works in a similar way across Brandon's works. We have identified the aPewer and Feruchemical gold.

 

I would like to add some things which I believe will shed some new light.

 

* Allomantic pewter, stormlight infusion healing: accelerates natural healing. You lose an arm, you get a stump. I think this is clear.

* Feruchemical gold: restores you to your cognitive aspect. You lose an arm, it grows back. I think this is also clear.

 

Now, healing on Sel we've seen works a little different, and not quite fits here. But I think it does:

 

a. Some type of AonDor: restores you to your cognitive aspect. However, it's a different process here than the Feruchemical gold, one of the reasons being that with Feruchemical gold you heal yourself, while with AonDor we've seen an elantrian healing others. So how about if the elantrian does not know the cognitive aspect of the person being healed, and the aon equations are used to tap and focus to discover the cognitive aspect of the person being healed?

 

b. Simple Aons for healing: they do not access the cognitive realm, and just accelerate natural healing, like Allomantic pewter

 

c. Resealing: The difference here is that your cognitive aspect is being changed, while in Feruchemical gold you don't change the cognitive aspect but align the physical one to the cognitive one.

 

d. Divine Breath: similar to resealing, you change the cognitive aspect.

 

 

So I will then take one step further and say there are 3 categories, in ascendent order of power:

 

1) physical-only: accelerate natural healing (Allomantic pewter, stormlight infusion, simple AonDor)

2) physical+cognitive: change physical to match cognitive (Feruchemical gold, complex AonDor to access cognitive realm)

3) cognitive+physical: change cognitive, then change physical to match the new cognitive (Divine Breath, Resealing)

 

Hope this clears things out!

 

Now, about shardblades, there might be 2 things that are happening:

 

i) the cut is on the spiritual level, and thus neither healing method will work,

ii) the cut is on the cognitive level, and only method 3) will work.

 

Nevertheless, I would say that currently we are not aware of any magic in Roshar that would heal a shardblade cut.

Edited November 11, 2013 by marianmi

[marianmi]

We'll agree to disagree. From what I see your interpretation of Cosmere wide healing rules wouldn't allow for Renarin to be healed of his blood weakness correct? Or for Kaladin to have his brands healed? Because it seems like your talking in circles to me Kurkistan. I can't actually pin down what you actually think about healing. All I get is that you shoot down anything that doesn't conform to this Feruchemical gold/Allomantic pewter formula.

 

Gloom, I think Renarin's blood weakness and Kaladin's brands are already in the cognitive, so only something like Resealing or Divine Breath would work on them.

[Ethrien he/him]

Now, about shardblades, there might be 2 things that are happening:

 

i) the cut is on the spiritual level, and thus neither healing method will work,

ii) the cut is on the cognitive level, and only method 3) will work.

 

Nevertheless, I would say that currently we are not aware of any magic in Roshar that would heal a shardblade cut.

 

We've WoB that Feruchemical gold can heal Shardblade cuts, so its safe to say its not cutting the cognitive aspect. Also that cognitive healing like Feruchemical gold can heal spiritual wounds, or at least reattach two spiritual pieces separated by a Shardblade.

 

I've just developed a strange hope, that this is the sort of thing Bridge Four covers in their 'experiments'.

 

"Airsick lowlander, you don't need ten toes, and this will give us good information. It is important to know your limits."

Edited November 11, 2013 by Ethrien

[Kurkistan he/him]

We'll agree to disagree. From what I see your interpretation of Cosmere wide healing rules wouldn't allow for Renarin to be healed of his blood weakness correct? Or for Kaladin to have his brands healed? Because it seems like your talking in circles to me Kurkistan. I can't actually pin down what you actually think about healing. All I get is that you shoot down anything that doesn't conform to this Feruchemical gold/Allomantic pewter formula.

 

As far as Shardic intent goes, I don't see how you can argue that a Shard has no bearing on that Shards magic system. This is like saying that a Shard can create life, but has no bearing on what form that life takes, which is not the case. I find it implausible that a Shard has no influence on the magic system that is created when they invest themselves in a planet, I find the entire idea ridiculous.

 

I apologize if I conveyed my thoughts poorly. I find my framework quite non-circular, myself.

 

Where, exactly, have I waffled on what healing is? I specified two broad categories for the sake of this discussion: those that are just normal healing on steroids and those that strive towards some "target" form. The second doesn't mention the Cognitive primarily because Divine Breath is weird

 

To answer your question more directly: No, as marianmi pointed out, the healing rules as I understand them would not normally allow Renarin's blood weakness of Kaladin's scars to heal. Divine Breath could do it, maybe AonDor could do it, Forgery could do it for limited period of time. But (probably) Regrowth, permanent Resealing, and Feruchemical gold most certainly could not.

 

---

 

I shot down your argument for Intents affecting the way healing works because it was wrong, Gloom, not because it muddied my "pat little system." Sorry if you find that ridiculous, but Brandon has been quite clear on this subject:

 

ERIC LAKE () (Chaos)

Allomancy provides many very dramatic effects, which some have noted is not very much like Preservation. Could you walk me through how Allomancy is of Preservation, though it does dramatic, dynamic things?

 

BRANDON SANDERSON

One of the 'basics' of the magic in all of the worlds is that the energy of Shards can fuel all kinds of interactions, not just interactions based on their personality/role. I did this because otherwise, the Magics would all be extremely limited.

 

The 'role' of the Shard has to do with the WAY the magic is obtained, not what it can do. So, in Preservation's case, the magic is a gift—allowing a person to preserve their own strength, and rely upon the strength granted by the magic. While Hemalurgy has a huge cost, ending in net entropy.

So far as the perfect societies point goes...

 

I don't hold Brandon to every word spoken in every interview. I believe that he will stick to the spirit of what was said, but I don't hold anything that isn't in a book as cannon because Brandon has repeatedly told us not to. A healing system can be much more robust than you seem to believe without leading to a society of perfect people that never get sick, old, or die.

 

Whether or not everyone benefits from "super healing", the idea behind the fear applies to a broader point that I think it fair to say Brandon was getting at. A society where it's even moderately easy to go about fixing any and all chronic ills has a fundamentally different way of functioning than a normal one. Just like any space travel story with ark ships inevitably becomes about the ark, so too (I think it fair to say) any fantasy story with perfect healing—one that takes its world and its magic seriously, at least—must almost inevitably be about how that healing affects society.

 

The full context that everyone's linking to is helpful in this regard.

 

I mostly agree with Kurkistan on several points.

 

* Intents do deal with the acquisition of investiture that allows you to tap the magic from the spiritual realm. E.g. if you do this thing (where "thing" is based on the intent of the shard), the shard will give you a battery. It's up to you what you power the battery with. Nobody stopped the steel inquisitors (when not controlled by ruin) to be nice guys.

 

* Healing works in a similar way across Brandon's works. We have identified the aPewer and Feruchemical gold.

 

I would like to add some things which I believe will shed some new light.

 

* Allomantic pewter, stormlight infusion healing: accelerates natural healing. You lose an arm, you get a stump. I think this is clear.

* Feruchemical gold: restores you to your cognitive aspect. You lose an arm, it grows back. I think this is also clear.

Thanks for the backup.

 

Now, healing on Sel we've seen works a little different, and not quite fits here. But I think it does:

 

a. Some type of AonDor: restores you to your cognitive aspect. However, it's a different process here than the Feruchemical gold, one of the reasons being that with Feruchemical gold you heal yourself, while with AonDor we've seen an elantrian healing others. So how about if the elantrian does not know the cognitive aspect of the person being healed, and the aon equations are used to tap and focus to discover the cognitive aspect of the person being healed?

 

b. Simple Aons for healing: they do not access the cognitive realm, and just accelerate natural healing, like Allomantic pewter

 

c. Resealing: The difference here is that your cognitive aspect is being changed, while in Feruchemical gold you don't change the cognitive aspect but align the physical one to the cognitive one.

 

d. Divine Breath: similar to resealing, you change the cognitive aspect.

 

 

So I will then take one step further and say there are 3 categories, in ascendent order of power:

 

1) physical-only: accelerate natural healing (Allomantic pewter, stormlight infusion, simple AonDor)

2) physical+cognitive: change physical to match cognitive (Feruchemical gold, complex AonDor to access cognitive realm)

3) cognitive+physical: change cognitive, then change physical to match the new cognitive (Divine Breath, Resealing)

 

Hope this clears things out!

 

I agree that AonDor is a bit tricky. I have some thoughts on it, actually. But that's all rather besides the main thrust of the argument, so I'll just leave it at that.

 

So far as Resealing goes, though, I think you're off the mark. Resealing that doesn't abide by Cognitive aspects only works temporarily, for <=26 hours per stamping. Proper Resealing, though, of non-chronic conditions, is permanent. I would say then that the temporary kind only forces a temporary change on Cognitive aspects—if even that—and that the second kind, the permanent kind, likely doesn't change the Cognitive at all. I've discussed this. Discussed it a lot.

 

@Ethrien

 

Edited November 12, 2013 by Kurkistan

[hoser he/him]

Well, I like that Kaladin is going to have a badass appearance to go with his bad attitude about lighteyes.  When the highest ranked darkeyes anyone can remember goes around with "dangerous slave" written on his forehead in the King's court that will be fun for Brandon to write and for us to read. 

 

Although I am largely unconcerned with the theoretic foundations, it makes intuitive sense to me that if Kaladin received Regrowth, the brands would remain. 

 

OTOH, if his forehead had all the tissue around the scars removed and he were then "Regrowth"ed, would the brands reappear?

 

My intuitive feel is that the brands would not reappear, but I am curious about the theoretical perspective. 

[marianmi]

I think they would reappear in both cases, because they are part of his cognitive aspect right now.