Reviving a dead topic: Szeth's Shardblade is an Honourblade

[Aether]

Sorry to call you out on it, but my OP on this Thread mentions exactly that quote, which was what made me join the "Szeth's Shardblade = Jezrien's Honourblade" camp.

 

Good catch though! And it is indeed assumed that it is Nalan and another Herald (likely Kalak) conversing in that scene.

[Gloom]

So what evidence do we have that Szeth carries an Honorblade?

 

The quote above, obviously.

 

The fact that Szeths eyes only change when he summons his blade as seen below.

 

The moment he summoned his blade, his eyes would turn from dark green to pale—almost glowing—sapphire, a unique effect of his particular weapon.

 

The fact that Szeths eyes change to a completely different color than his natural color, and that this color is the Windrunners color.

 

The fact that Szeth can surgebind without spren.

 

The fact that Szeths blade is unique in several ways. It is smaller than a normal Shardblade, and has the unique effect noted in the quote above.

 

I may have missed a few, feel free to add to the list. I'm aware that other theories have been put forth on why these things happen.

[Bloodfalcon]

I may have missed a few, feel free to add to the list. I'm aware that other theories have been put forth on why these things happen.

It is not as defined as the rest of those above - but there is the line about the Shin apparently being able to recover his Blade with no problems, which would seem unusual considering Blades normally just drop to the side. I doubt there is always a Shin babysitter following him. It suggests different behavior. 

Edited December 20, 2013 by Bloodfalcon

[Daishi5]

So what evidence do we have that Szeth carries an Honorblade?

 

The quote above, obviously.

 

The fact that Szeths eyes only change when he summons his blade as seen below.

 

The fact that Szeths eyes change to a completely different color than his natural color, and that this color is the Windrunners color.

 

The fact that Szeth can surgebind without spren.

 

The fact that Szeths blade is unique in several ways. It is smaller than a normal Shardblade, and has the unique effect noted in the quote above.

 

I may have missed a few, feel free to add to the list. I'm aware that other theories have been put forth on why these things happen.

 

Most of those are not actually evidence of an honorblade, they are only evidence that something is different with Szeth.  Only the eye change and the size of the blade can be conclusively linked to the blade.  

 

Oh, and one other "kinda proof."  Szeth says that part of his punishment is to be tortured for eternity rather than just cease to exist, we know Heralds also get to spend hundreds of years being tortured.  If Szeth is right about being tortured after he dies, the similarity of his fate to the Heralds can also be blamed on his blade.  

 

What we do know is that there are 3 kinds of blades, we have seen honorblades and shardblades, and Szeth says his is different than the current day blades.  

 

I like your theory that the Recreance changed the blades somehow, and the blades of modern Roshar are not the same as the blades of the KR.  (Syl dislikes Dalinar's blade, the quote about "returning to men the shards they once bore," and the description of the Recreance when the KR gave up their blades.)  

 

If your theory is true (and again, I like your theory a lot, but it could be wrong), then we have 3 types of blades identified, KR shardblades, current day blades, and honorblades.  Since Szeth says that his blade is different than modern day blades, it would have to either be a true KR blade, or an honorblade.  We know KR bonded with spren but Szeth has no spren, and Szeth is not on the KR path, so I think we can pretty confidently say that Szeth does not have an oldstyle KR blade.  That leaves us with honorblade.

 

If he doesn't have a blade, we have to figure out A. where the blade comes from, D. how he can surge bind, C. why spren don't seem to be attracted to him, D. why his blade only changes his eyes temporarily, E. where he learned to fight, F. why he thinks he will be tortured after death 

 

If he has an honorblade, we get a nice occams razor type of solution of "it all happened because of the blade" and we are left with A. where did it come from

Edited December 20, 2013 by Daishi5

[Cayden]

Myself I always thought that the reason why his blade changes his eye colour was because it was an uncorrupted blade, we havent seen any Darkeyes hold another blade yet, but the darkeyed legends state that the shardblade turns them into a lighteyes. It might well mean that once long ago it truly changed the colour but they became more and more corrupted by dishonourable use.

 

Up until I saw the new quote I had presumed that when the KR went away they hid a small quantity of shards with the Shin and kept a select few to be surgebinders. But this also brings in a new facet;

 

Szeth became truthless around the same time as Galivar was murdered, what if Galivars activity on the Shattered plains, the ones which started the Death Speaches and the Highstorm Visions also brought out Szeths ability to surgebind and that is why he was branded as truthless? If the Shin leadership had the same view of things as the Parshendi, then they would want to put a stop to it. Could they be trying to make him do evil acts to break his honor? or to corrupt the blade?

[Kier]

I have a really hard time buying this theory for one reason and one reason alone. Honorblades in the Prelude, and Talns Honorblade are discribed as Massive.

 

And yet Szeths blade is described as shorter than most shardblades, and WoB is "Noticable Shorter than Shardbaldes"

 

So, for that reason ALONE Szeth in my mind cannot have an Honorblade. 

 

 

 

Oh, and one other "kinda proof."  Szeth says that part of his punishment is to be tortured for eternity rather than just cease to exist, we know Heralds also get to spend hundreds of years being tortured.  If Szeth is right about being tortured after he dies, the similarity of his fate to the Heralds can also be blamed on his blade.  

 

I think he is torture, is one the fact that he has to obey commands to kill and commands that he finds repulsive and evil, walk on stone, murder innocents, so on and so forth. And I do believe that he thinks religion wise that he is going to damnation becuase of it, not that he will live again to be tortured and so on and so forth.

 

Furthermore, if Szeth has an Honorblade, and we know Honorblades disappear when the holder dies, unlike Shardblades that appear when the holder dies.... how in the hell are the stone shamans going to retrieve his blade?? Its gone, it disappeared, gone to... well who knows? to shardsmar? so unless the Stone Shamans have the ability to go to Shardsmar, if thats even where the Honorblades go when the holder dies, I don't see the Shamans getting it any time soon after Sezth dies. 

[Aether]

I have a really hard time buying this theory for one reason and one reason alone. Honorblades in the Prelude, and Talns Honorblade are discribed as Massive.

 

And yet Szeths blade is described as shorter than most shardblades, and WoB is "Noticable Shorter than Shardbaldes"

 

So, for that reason ALONE Szeth in my mind cannot have an Honorblade. 

 

The Honourblades in the Prelude are only ever really described as "magnificent", being:

Weapons of power beyond even Shardblades. These were unique.

- from the Way of Kings Prelude

At no point in the Prelude is their relative size to other Shardblades (or even size at all) described. The impression you have about their sizes comes from the Epilogue, where Talenel'Elin's Shardblade is correctly described as "massive". This might not really indicate that it is noticeably bigger than other Shardblades, just that Shardblades in general are massive weapons. But even if it is, it wouldn't necessarily be representative of all of the Honourblades. In fact, that last part of the quote is a strong suggestion that they may vary heavily in appearance, and presumably also in size.

 

If the impression of all Honourblades being "massive" was the only thing holding you back, then consider this rebuttal ALONE to be enough to convince you of otherwise  .

 

 

Furthermore, if Szeth has an Honorblade, and we know Honorblades disappear when the holder dies, unlike Shardblades that appear when the holder dies.... how in the hell are the stone shamans going to retrieve his blade?? Its gone, it disappeared, gone to... well who knows? to shardsmar? so unless the Stone Shamans have the ability to go to Shardsmar, if thats even where the Honorblades go when the holder dies, I don't see the Shamans getting it any time soon after Sezth dies. 

It is widely assumed that Honourblades behave differently from "normal" Shardblades, correct, but the only thing we know for sure is that an Honourblade disappear when their bonded Herald dies. We know nothing of what would happen if a normal human dies while wielding it. Suggestions range from it behaving just like a "normal" Shardblade and appearing next to its dead wielder, to reappearing where its respective Herald left them. Someone have also suggested that the Honourblades actually do behave like other Shardblades in this regard, but spawn next to their dead (or dead-ish) Herald wherever to he is transported. A normal human would not be transported anywhere, and the Blade would appear next to him/her. All of the above suggestions would account for how the Stone Shamans are able to retrieve it.

 

EDIT: Minor grammar.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Aether

[Kier]

The Honourblades in the Prelude are only ever really described as "magnificent", being:

At no point in the Prelude is their relative size to other Shardblades (or even size at all) described. The impression you have about their sizes comes from the Epilogue, where Talenel'Elin's Shardblade is correctly described as "massive". This might not really indicate that it is noticeably bigger than other Shardblades, just that Shardblades in general are massive weapons. But even if it is, it wouldn't necessarily be representative of all of the Honourblades. In fact, that last part of the quote is a strong suggestion that they may vary heavily in appearance, and presumably also in size.

 

If the impression of all Honourblades being "massive" was the only thing holding you back, then consider this rebuttal ALONE to be enough to convince you of otherwise  .

 

 

It is widely assumed that Honourblades behave differently from "normal" Shardblades, correct, but the only thing we know for sure is that an Honourblade disappear when their bonded Herald dies. We know nothing of what would happen if a normal human dies while wielding it. Suggestions range from it behaving just like a "normal" Shardblade and appearing next to its dead wielder, to reappearing where its respective Herald left them. Someone have also suggested that the Honourblades actually do behave like other Shardblades in this regard, but spawn next to their dead (or dead-ish) Herald wherever to he is transported. A normal human would not be transported anywhere, and the Blade would appear next to him/her. All of the above suggestions would account for how the Stone Shamans are able to retrieve it.

 

EDIT: Minor grammar.

 

 

ok...Lets see. You are correct, not that I doubted you, that the discriptions of the honorblades in the prelude actually lend more weight to your argument, perhaps. They are described as being flowing wokrs of art, inscribed with glyphs and patters, and unique. There is nothing aobut size. 

 

And even, the fact that we know they are Unique, unique enough that Kalak can identify whos blade is whos and Talns is described as being massive leads more weight that they most likely vary in size. 

 

However, One point. It does say not only is Talns sword massive but that it is specifically a massive shardblade. 

 

"..to his side he held a massive Shardblade..." 

 

Small but distinctive that I think his shardblade, correctly his honorblade is massive even in comparison to other shardblades. Other shardblades arn't, to my knowledge described as massive. Only larger than a normal sword, or as long as a man is tall.

 

As for the behavior of Szeths blade....I have no rebuttal. 

 

Logically, I should be convinced by my own words.. You have made good points. However, I'm going to reserve the right to be illogical and still be not convinced. 

[hoser]

IIRC, the description in the prelude is of the blades not including Jezrien's (as his is not one of the ones stuck in the ground when they are described), so we actually have no clue about the appearance of Jezrien's Honorblade, suspected to be the one wielded by Szeth. 

 

Even if it can't be proven that Szeth is not wieyeilding an Honorblade, that does not make it logical to believe that he is.  Given how little we know of this world, skepticism is likely the most logical (but least interesting) approach.  I don't think it can be proven, given the clues we have, that Szeth is carrying an Honorblade. 

 

Edit: wielding

Edited January 3, 2014 by hoser

[Aether]

ok...Lets see. You are correct, not that I doubted you, that the discriptions of the honorblades in the prelude actually lend more weight to your argument, perhaps. They are described as being flowing wokrs of art, inscribed with glyphs and patters, and unique. There is nothing aobut size. 

 

And even, the fact that we know they are Unique, unique enough that Kalak can identify whos blade is whos and Talns is described as being massive leads more weight that they most likely vary in size. 

 

However, One point. It does say not only is Talns sword massive but that it is specifically a massive shardblade. 

 

"..to his side he held a massive Shardblade..." 

 

Small but distinctive that I think his shardblade, correctly his honorblade is massive even in comparison to other shardblades. Other shardblades arn't, to my knowledge described as massive. Only larger than a normal sword, or as long as a man is tall.

 

As for the behavior of Szeths blade....I have no rebuttal. 

 

Logically, I should be convinced by my own words.. You have made good points. However, I'm going to reserve the right to be illogical and still be not convinced. 

I wasn't trying to convince you -  or even hoping to - I am just having fun with your peculiar choice of words .

 

I still maintain that "a massive Shardblade" doesn't necessarily mean "a Shardblade that is massive compared to other Blades", but I recognize that I might have exaggerated this nuance. Besides, it is rather irrelevant because of the ascribed uniqueness of the Honourblades, as you yourself point out.

 

IIRC, the description in the prelude is of the blades not including Jezrien's (as his is not one of the ones stuck in the ground when they are described), so we actually have no clue about the appearance of Jezrien's Honorblade, suspected to be the one wielded by Szeth. 

 

Even if it can't be proven that Szeth is not yeilding an Honorblade, that does not make it logical to believe that he is.  Given how little we know of this world, skepticism is likely the most logical (but least interesting) approach.  I don't think it can be proven, given the clues we have, that Szeth is carrying an Honorblade. 

I do not believe anyone here is claiming to have proven that Szeth's Blade is an Honourblade, but that there are indications that suggest (strongly, in my opinion) that this might be the case. See the rest of the Thread for the individual arguments.

 

EDIT: Minor tweaking.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Aether

[Chlehrma]

Hey joined recently to take part in the Shardhunt, thank you, and have recently been reading a lot of the theories on the site and this is one that I enjoy.

I haven't noticed anybody post anything about the conversation that Jasnah overhears between Darkness and the Alethi looking man in the WoR prelude chapter.

"That creature carries my lord's own Blade. We shouldn't have let him keep it."

If Darkness Is Nalan or any of the Heralds like speculation suggest. This quote would seem to point to Szeth having an Honorblade.

It could also refer to Elkohar with whom they are talking in the prelude to WoK or to Eshonai's blade that looks like it has flames rising off of it from the way it is shaped. Both blades are works of art. It is also possible that since WoB claims we have seen 3 blade type, that Szeth's blade is actually a Dawnshard--assuming that they are actually a blade formed shard and not something else. Since Szeth lacks a spree bond the only other bonds he has are to his oath stone and to his blade, perhaps one of the two is the source of his ability to surge bind. If it actually is a dawn shard, then who knows what it does for the wielder. Alternatively, perhaps Honorblades grants surge binding abilities like a hemalugic spike would and it is the Honorblade of a Windrunner. Edited January 7, 2014 by Chlehrma

[Aether]

While not a 100% confirmation, as Shardlet has pointed out, I am just going to say that I (amongst others) totally called it!!

 

WoR spoiler:

[Venli didn’t flinch. “The humans have Surgebinders.”

“Perhaps not. It could have been an Honorblade.”
- Preview Interlude I of the Words of Radiance

Edited January 29, 2014 by Aether

[Chlehrma]

Now we need to figure out where we have seen a Dawnshard since WoB states that one is in WoK.

[Aether]

Now we need to figure out where we have seen a Dawnshard since WoB states that one is in WoK.

Um, what? Where? Are you thinking about this one?

 

mycoltbug

Is there any ramifications to the holder of a shard blade for using a blade in a manner that it wasn't intended?

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on the type of Shardblade. (You have seen three different kinds in TWoK.) For most, no. For some, most certainly.

<source>

If it is, then you might notice that at no point does he say that a Dawnshard is a type of Shardblade.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Aether

[.S.A.M.K.M]

 Is there any chance the dawn shards are simply the shards, honor, and cultivation?

[Aether]

 Is there any chance the dawn shards are simply the shards, honor, and cultivation?

Tanavast speaks of them (plural) as being lost, and as far as we know, Cultivation is still around. So I Would say no. They are likely to be of those Shards, though.

[Cheese Ninja]

When I first read WoK, I thought that the Dawnshards might be another name for the Honorblades, but the impressions I got from subsequent Q&As and interviews was that they weren't weapons at all.

 

Now that we can be pretty sure Szeth's Blade is Jezrien's Honorblade, what differentiates the two other types of Shardblade we saw in WoK that BS mentioned?  I wasn't a fan of it before, but this gives some credence to the idea that modern day Shardblades are somehow different than the Shardblades in Dalinar's highstorm vision.

[Aether]

I personally think that the distinction is made between "Radiantblades" and the modern and corrupted Radiantblades. But for all we know, there might just be that Shardblades are made to combat different types of creatures, and that our third type is of another kind than the most common ones. There are several Blades that are described as notably different than other Blades, amongst them Oathbringer and Elhokar's blade (not assuming the latter is an Honourblade).

[Aminar]

Where does the assumption Szeth has Jezrian's honorblade come from? I can't find the reference beyond Jezrian being suspected of reclaiming his blade.

My question comes from a supposition I made some time ago, I'm not sure when, that the first scene in WoK happened in Shin and that the Heralds blades were left there to be claimed by the Shin, which would mean it almost certainly isn't Jezrian's. Assuming I'm right.

[FingerstyleFunk]

Where does the assumption Szeth has Jezrian's honorblade come from?

 

It's based on the fact that Szeth's blade appears to be what's giving him his Windrunner-like surgebinding powers (all but confirmed by the preview Interlude), which is the order of the KR associated with Jezrien.

[skaa]

Ah, well, I guess I'll have to officially abandon my belief that all Shardblades are of Odium.

 

*thinks of a different Shardblade theory*

[Aminar]

It's based on the fact that Szeth's blade appears to be what's giving him his Windrunner-like surgebinding powers (all but confirmed by the preview Interlude), which is the order of the KR associated with Jezrien.

That makes sense. Thanks.

Now, does this tell us that the honorblade reclaimed wasn't Jezrien's? I think it's likely for a variety of reasons.

[Macen]

That makes sense. Thanks.

Now, does this tell us that the honorblade reclaimed wasn't Jezrien's? I think it's likely for a variety of reasons.

Aminar, I didn't support this theory until the latest release where Eshonai discusses that fact that they are unsure if Kaladin is a Surgebinder or someone holding an Honorblade (they also seemed terrified of the idea of there being a surgebinder). This pretty much cements the fact that Szeth is holding an honorblade. 

Take into account that they sent Szeth to kill Gavilar (they had to of known of his powers, or they wouldn't have been so certain he could do it) and we know can assume that Szeth is holding an Honorblade. Since Szeth hasn't used any power OTHER than a windrunners powers, we make the asumption that it is Jezrien's blade (he is the windrunner herald).

Hopefully that all makes sense....

[Moogle]

That makes sense. Thanks.

Now, does this tell us that the honorblade reclaimed wasn't Jezrien's? I think it's likely for a variety of reasons.

 

Jezrien's order has sapphires as their gemtype. Szeth's Blade turns his eyes blue/azure. There's quite a few connections here; if it's going to be anyone's Honorblade, Jezrien's seems most likely.

Edited January 30, 2014 by Moogle

[don_karma_II]

1.We have seen three kinds of shard blades. 

2. I always assumed they are 1) honorblades 2) normal shard blades 3) szeth's blades. But we can be almost certain that Szeth is carrying Jezrien's bade aka honorblade. so is the one we saw in dalinar's vision different from the one we see in present roshar?