skinnylipid Posted October 23, 2013 Posted October 23, 2013 One of most interesting parts of the Lift interlude for me was what Darkness had to say for himself when speaking to Lift. “Why . . . why do you hunt me?” “In the name of justice.” “There are tons of people who do wrong things,” she said. She had to force out every word. Talking was hard. Thinking was hard. So tired. “You . . . you coulda hunted big crime bosses, murderers. You chose me instead. Why?” “Others may be detestable, but they do not dabble in arts that could return Desolation to this world.” His words were so cold. “What you are must be stopped.” What strikes me about this is that if Darkness is who we think he is, aka the herald Nalan, then I think his response here may give us a clue as to the cause of the recreance. From the prologue to the SA in the WoK we hear from Jez that his expectation is that the people will be fine because they have the Radiants now... but what if some time post 'last desolation' and prior to the recreance the heralds realised that another Desolation would be coming regardless of their attempt to have their cake and eat it? What if they started to believe it was the presence of the Nahel Bond connecting the Cognative, spiritual and physical realms together within the Radiants that was drawing a Desolation or Odiums attention Roshar's way? The quote above makes me suspect that it was the heralds or mabye just Nalan himself that asked/required the Radiants to disband and discard their bonds. What do you think???
Argent he/him Posted October 23, 2013 Posted October 23, 2013 Much of what you say makes sense, but I don't think the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact because they were afraid Surgebinding was bringing the Desolations. They sounded genuinely tired and broken from all the torture. But I agree that it's possible that the Recreance happened because the Radiants did realize what was going on - assuming that what was going on was that Surgebinding brought / accelerated the coming of Desolations.
11thorderknight Posted October 23, 2013 Posted October 23, 2013 (edited) I brought this up in another topic, without alluding directly to what Darkness says, but my theory is that something about "magic" on Roshar leads to Desolations. My theory is that Odium corrupts surgebinders by offering them access to voidbinding, which is somehow more powerful but evil.....kind of like the Dark Side of the Force. Once you have enough surgebinders running around, it's only a matter of time before some critical mass turns to Odium, and a Desolation begins. Edited October 23, 2013 by 11thorderknight
deddinty Posted October 23, 2013 Posted October 23, 2013 (edited) It seems reasonable that surgebinders may be influenced more greatly by Odium, but I do wonder if being a Radiant would make people immune to that effect. Darkness obviously doesn't seem to care if they're on the way to being Radiant's or not. It seems to me that it would make sense if the existence of people who can surgebind hastens/allows the desolations to occur, that the Radiants may learn of it and thus would have chosen to abandon their powers in hope of preventing it. It makes me wonder what Honor's plan is, to reunite and recreate the Radiants, is he trying to force a conflict with Odium? It's pure speculation of course, but it would be interesting to me if that was the ultimate goal, to harm or destroy him. Edited October 23, 2013 by deddinty
Shardlet he/him Posted October 23, 2013 Posted October 23, 2013 Much of what you say makes sense, but I don't think the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact because they were afraid Surgebinding was bringing the Desolations. They sounded genuinely tired and broken from all the torture. I think you misunderstood what Skinnylipid wrote, Argent. He did suggest that that was the reason the Heralds abandoned the Oathpact. He said that sometime after they bailed, one or more of them came to the conclusion that the proliferation of surgebinders led to the desolations and that as such they asked the KR to disband and have been 'discouraging' surgebinding ever since.
marianmi Posted October 23, 2013 Posted October 23, 2013 I think the recreance happened because the KR become involved in local fighting and mundane politics. Otherwise, they would not have abandoned their shards. I wonder if they might have ended up fighting order against order. From Dalinar's vision, I see their behaviour as: "we are not fighting your wars anymore. here you are, get your hands dirty and fight it yourselves. we are done." What do you think happens with a military organization when their have no war to fight in? They find another one to fight in. And what would happen if they were tricked to fight in this war, and later on realized that it stands against their principles/oaths? About Nalan, it might be that having an influx of spren coming the the physical realm to bond surgebinders would create an easier path for "other" things too... so he's thinking of "severing" the bonds between realms.
Argent he/him Posted October 23, 2013 Posted October 23, 2013 Except the Radiants could easily just say "No, we are done fighting" and no force in this world could've forced them to do otherwise.
blackmagic3 he/him Posted October 23, 2013 Posted October 23, 2013 Did anybody notice that darkness can infuse (a bit hypocritical of him). Notice Lift wanted to be like darkness but she said it was like being dead. And did I miss something, where is the evidence that nalan = darkness.
blackmagic3 he/him Posted October 23, 2013 Posted October 23, 2013 I took a look at your theory, its good but Lift said being like Darkness was like being dead and Wyndle calls him an abomination. These two points kind of fly in the face of your theory and because Lift says you can become like darkness you can't become a herald unless you pick up an honor blade. On another point did anyone catch the thing about Jezrien drooling?
Scott Posted October 24, 2013 Posted October 24, 2013 (edited) I took a look at your theory, its good but Lift said being like Darkness was like being dead and Wyndle calls him an abomination. These two points kind of fly in the face of your theory and because Lift says you can become like darkness you can't become a herald unless you pick up an honor blade. On another point did anyone catch the thing about Jezrien drooling? When Lift says "I tried to be like you..." I believe she was referring to Darkness being cold, void of emotion, and uncaring. Neither she nor Wyndel seems aware he is a Herald, if he is indeed Nalan. Here's the quote: “I saved him,” Lift said. “I did something good, didn’t I?” “Goodness is irrelevant,” Darkness said. His Shardblade dropped into his fingers. “You don’t even care, do you?” “No,” he said. “I don’t.” “You should,” she said, exhausted. “You should . . . should try it, I mean. I wanted to be like you, once. Didn’t work out. Wasn’t . . . even like being alive . . .” In addition, we don't know if picking up an Honorblade does anything special to anyone. There is a theory that Szeth wields Jezrien's Honorblade, and that it is the source of Szeth's powers, but it's far from proven. e: Incidentally, your comment on Jezrien drooling is also explored in Argent's lovely Fallen Heralds thread Edited October 24, 2013 by Scott 1
skinnylipid Posted October 24, 2013 Author Posted October 24, 2013 I think the Jezrien comments Darkness makes are interesting because I found myself reading them two different ways. 1. one where we relate everything to being a hint about Jezrien as his name is invoked. 2. one where you take the whole comment as being in context of the scene itself and as such being a comment directly about the new Prime. Part of me really wants it to be a hint about Jezrien... but reading it for the first time it seemed more like comments about the new Prime ruling in wisdom if he ever grows up or lives long enough to do so. I read the "if he ever stops drooling" line as commenting the new Prime was child. Of cause it may well be both!
Argent he/him Posted October 24, 2013 Posted October 24, 2013 Rereading the interlude I see that the "drooling" comment could, indeed, be interpreted with perfect validity. Though I still maintain that it feels more natural to be about Jezrien. "We have a Prime who can survive the attacks of the One All White. Praise to Yaezir, Kadasix of Kings, may he lead in wisdom. This youth is Prime." ... “Praise Yaezir,” [Darkness] said. “Herald of kings. May he lead in wisdom. If he ever stops drooling.” Both lines, especially Darkness', feel like they are about Jezrien. The lead vizier's wish for wisdom in leadership could refer to either the "Prime who can survive the attacks of the One All White", but it could also refer to "Yaezir, Kadasix of Kings" - you should know better than to write something as ambiguous as this, Brandon! Darkness, however, doesn't mention the new Prime in his words. He talks only about Jezrien, and this leads me to believe that if he refers to him, then so must the vizier. In a way I am assuming Darkness what the vizier is referring to specifically, and then extrapolating on his meaning.
marianmi Posted October 24, 2013 Posted October 24, 2013 " Praise to Yaezir, Kadasix of Kings, may he lead in wisdom." Looks to me pretty clear that HE is a reference to Jezrien. “Herald of kings. May he lead in wisdom. If he ever stops drooling.” This follows and thus references Jezrien. Also, looks to me a minion would not be aware of Jezrien's fate or refer to him in those terms. Darkness refers to him like someone he knows well. Nalan. 1
The Count he/him Posted October 24, 2013 Posted October 24, 2013 (edited) I brought this up in another topic, without alluding directly to what Darkness says, but my theory is that something about "magic" on Roshar leads to Desolations. My theory is that Odium corrupts surgebinders by offering them access to voidbinding, which is somehow more powerful but evil.....kind of like the Dark Side of the Force. Once you have enough surgebinders running around, it's only a matter of time before some critical mass turns to Odium, and a Desolation begins. Sorry this is off topic, but this sent my geek pendant side into overdrive... The dark side is NOT more powerful.... Luke: Is the darkside stronger? Yoda: No! Only quicker, easier, more seductive. Luke: But how will I know the good side from the bad? Yoda: You will know... when you are calm, at peace. That is all... carry on. Edited October 24, 2013 by MadRand 4
b4dave he/him Posted October 24, 2013 Posted October 24, 2013 I don't think it references Jezrien....i see it more of a praise god kinda thins. "Please god don't let him be an idiot" is what I got out of that
Scriptorian he/him Posted October 24, 2013 Posted October 24, 2013 On Shadow/Nalan, if he is out trying to stop surgebinders for whatever reason, then why the heck isn't he going after Szeth?
Argent he/him Posted October 24, 2013 Posted October 24, 2013 Szeth is much more elusive than Lift or Ym. He travels all the time, while both Lift and Ym look like they live their entire lives in the a single city.
Scriptorian he/him Posted October 24, 2013 Posted October 24, 2013 I'm just saying, he goes through the trouble to track down these random people who happen to be surgebinders, but ignores the guy who's actually brutally slaughtering people. Would it really be that much trouble to actually do some good? Maybe there's some stupid legal thing that, in Shadow's mind, says that Szeth isn't actually guilty for his crimes. I guess I don't really expect a good reason, but I think this highlights something strange about his motivations. It has to be something more than just that it would be too much trouble to hunt Szeth.
Scott Posted October 24, 2013 Posted October 24, 2013 (edited) I'm thinking Nalan needs to have some way to detect surgebinding to find and track these people. Maybe his method of detection doesn't work on Szeth due to the way his powers were gained? e: Also, In the Jasnah prologue Nalan and the man he's talking to (Kelek possibly) say "That creature has my master's own blade". If they're referring to Szeth and his sword, then maybe Darkness is aware of Szeth and does not believe that he will cause a Desolation. Or... *queue conspiracy music*... Nalan is working with Taravangian! Nalan seems to need a lawful reason to kill people, but Szeth just needs to be ordered to. Maybe they're working towards the same end! Edited October 24, 2013 by Scott
Argent he/him Posted October 24, 2013 Posted October 24, 2013 Maybe there's some stupid legal thing that, in Shadow's mind, says that Szeth isn't actually guilty for his crimes. This is actually something I was considering as well. I discarded it based on his belief (and I extrapolate here a little bit) that crimes are objective, free of context. A murder is a murder, regardless of motivation, target / victim, method, environment, or anything else. No, I think his selection algorithm is more complicated that this... It almost feels like he wants to go out and murder execute every Surgebinder he can find, but he also feels the need to do it in a lawful and legal fashion.
deddinty Posted October 24, 2013 Posted October 24, 2013 I wonder if it's only those with the Nahel bond he's going after, and we know Szeth obtained his powers in a different way so he doesn't care about him. It would reinforce the theory that it is the spren and human bonding across the three realms that hastens/causes the desolation. Personally I see Darkness coming after Shallan before anyone else, especially Kaladin. She thinks of herself as a murderer after all. I just can't see a big conflict with Darkness on the Shattered Plains happening so soon. 3
Gloom he/him Posted October 24, 2013 Posted October 24, 2013 I believe that one could argue with equal validity, that the Heralds began to persecute the KR prior to the Recreance. That it was due to this persecution and political maneuverings of the Heralds that the KR disbanded. That the KR discovered who was behind it all and basically flipped the Heralds off and threw in the towel. We just don't know. What we can guess is that at some point Cultivation cursed the Heralds. We can guess that the curse was neurological in nature, and that this curse warped how the Heralds see the world. I would speculate that this happened after the Recreance, and the reason for it was because she blames them for Tanavasts death and the splintering of the Honor Shard. Now I will tell you when I believe this may have happened and why. I don't believe that Cultivation would have interfered with Honors champions while Tanavast was still alive. Tanavast showed a clear picture of the Recreance to Dalinar, and said at the end that he wasn't very good at seeing the future as an explanation as to why the last vision was fragmented. So I believe that Cultivation, bless her heart, cursed each of the Heralds for Tanavasts death. If each of the Heralds has been cursed neurologically, then the behavior we see from Heralds we encounter will, as has been previously speculated, be warped. In the event that Darknessis a Herald, we can't expect him to act rationally or seek those who are deserving of his attention. He is cursed. To learn more about why I believe the Heralds are cursed, read the Jasnah interlude in the WoR subfolder 2
Binnut he/him Posted October 25, 2013 Posted October 25, 2013 So you mean that if Darkness/Nalan had not been cursed he would instead search for surgebinders and help them instead? His curse just makes him think that the opposite will make everything better?
The Count he/him Posted October 25, 2013 Posted October 25, 2013 I believe that one could argue with equal validity, that the Heralds began to persecute the KR prior to the Recreance. That it was due to this persecution and political maneuverings of the Heralds that the KR disbanded. That the KR discovered who was behind it all and basically flipped the Heralds off and threw in the towel. We just don't know. What we can guess is that at some point Cultivation cursed the Heralds. We can guess that the curse was neurological in nature, and that this curse warped how the Heralds see the world. I would speculate that this happened after the Recreance, and the reason for it was because she blames them for Tanavasts death and the splintering of the Honor Shard. Now I will tell you when I believe this may have happened and why. I don't believe that Cultivation would have interfered with Honors champions while Tanavast was still alive. Tanavast showed a clear picture of the Recreance to Dalinar, and said at the end that he wasn't very good at seeing the future as an explanation as to why the last vision was fragmented. So I believe that Cultivation, bless her heart, cursed each of the Heralds for Tanavasts death. If each of the Heralds has been cursed neurologically, then the behavior we see from Heralds we encounter will, as has been previously speculated, be warped. In the event that Darknessis a Herald, we can't expect him to act rationally or seek those who are deserving of his attention. He is cursed. To learn more about why I believe the Heralds are cursed, read the Jasnah interlude in the WoR subfolder Assuming Cultivation is the Nightwatcher... did she also give them a boon? Thas seems to be how her magic works. I think I am more inclined to believe teh Herals are just mad from 4,500 years of guilt...
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